The legitimacy of devotion to Mary

[JM3]

openlibrary.org/books/OL23374705M/Certain_difficulties_felt_by_Anglicans_in_Catholic_teaching_considered

From page 80

What mother, what husband or wife, what youth or maiden in love, but says a thousand foolish things, in the way of endearment, which the speaker would be sorry for strangers to hear ; yet they are not on that account unwelcome to the parties to whom they are addressed. Sometimes by bad luck they are written down, sometimes they get into the newspapers; and what might be even graceful, when it was fresh from the heart, and interpreted by the voice and the countenance, presents but a melancholy exhibition when served up cold for the public eye. So it is with devotional feelings. Burning thoughts and words are as open to criticism as they are beyond it. What is abstractedly extravagant, may in particular persons be becoming and beautiful, and only fall under blame when it is found in others who imitate them. When it is formalized into meditations or exercises, it is as repulsive as love-letters in a police report. Moreover, even holy minds readily adopt and become familiar with language which they would never have originated themselves, when it proceeds from a writer who has the same objects of devotion as they have; and, if they find a stranger ridicule or reprobate supplication or praise which has come to them so recommended, they feel it as keenly as if a direct insult were offered to those to whom that homage is addressed.

From page 84

Mary is only our mother by divine appointment, given us from the Cross ; her presence is above, not on earth ; her office is external, not within us. Her name is not heard in the administration of the Sacraments. Her work is not one of ministration towards us ; her power is indirect, It is her prayers that avail, and her prayers are effectual by the Fiat of Him who is our all in all. Nor need she hear us by any innate power, or any personal gift; but by His manifestation to her of the prayers which we make to her. When Moses was on the Mount, the Almighty told him of the idolatry of his people at the foot of it, in order that he might intercede for them ; and thus it is the Divine Presence which is the intermediating Power by which we reach her and she reaches us.

 

[pablope]

All right guys. This is a continuation of the thread from Veneration vs Worship. My personal opinion is that all of them should be given to god. The totality of Veneration and worship is to be directed at god.

While I regard saints as heroes of faith what the reasons for devotion to mary?

From the story of Scott Hahn…star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m1/sctcnv.html

A friend of mine who had heard I was thinking about the Catholic Church called up one day and said: “Do you worship Mary like those Catholics do?” I said, “They don’t worship Mary; they honor Mary.” “Well, what’s the difference?” I said, “Let me explain. When Christ accepted the call from His Father to become a man, He accepted the responsibility to obey the law, the moral law which is summarized in the Ten Commandments. There’s a commandment which reads, ‘Honor your father and mother.’” I said, “Chris, in the original Hebrew, that word “honor,” kaboda, that Hebrew word means to glorify, to bestow whatever glory and honor you have upon your father and mother. Christ fulfilled that law more perfectly than any human by bestowing His glory upon His heavenly Father and by taking His own divine glory and honoring His Mother with it. All we do in the rosary, Chris, is to imitate Christ who honors His Mother with His own glory. We honor her with Christ’s glory.”

 

[Kingtroll1]

*Catholics who continue to commit offenses against God by “debating” legitmacy devotion to Our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mary do not understand Mary and not yet worthy of being her devotee.

These ongoing debates are very offensive to God and are witness to tepid Catholics not firmly rooted in True Devotion to Mary. These laboring Catholics have been influenced by protestantism and due to weak faith, embrace or entertain logical controversies regarding the identity and position of Mary.

Further it is foolish for Catholics to justify to the feeble in faith a “defense” of Marian devotion. The heart of the recipient must first be prepared to receive Our Lady.

Please stop these offenses. MARY IS OUR MOTHER! Have you no love?

Mary is as inseparable from the of Most Holy Trinity just as the fragrance is inseparable from a flower.

No … I don’t say I worship Mary, I loudly and whole heartedly proclaim “I worship the ground she walks upon!”

“One cannot enter into the mysteries of Jesus’ Salvific Crucifixion but by Mary. Even the other Marys and St. John who were at the foot of the cross were there because of Mary. For she is the perfect embodiment of Perfect Love of God and Perfect Love of God is the only vehicle by which Our Lord reveals His Eternal and Everlasting Compassion of His Self Sacrificing Love.”*

Now I see that whole statement as idolatry. Who but God alone deserves worship?

Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before me.”

Even though you do not call her a god. The fact that you treat her like one by worshiping the ground she walks on is indeed a sin. And you contradict all the heroes of the word of god:

Psalm 62:5
Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him.

As for myself I will worship the LORD and him alone shall I worship.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

No one is drawn to Jesus but by the Father:
John: 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him

 

[De_Montfort]

Now I see that whole statement as idolatry. Who but God alone deserves worship?

Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before me.”

Even though you do not call her a god. The fact that you treat her like one by worshiping the ground she walks on is indeed a sin. And you contradict all the heroes of the word of god:

Psalm 62:5
Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him.

As for myself I will worship the LORD and him alone shall I worship.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

No one is drawn to Jesus but by the Father:
John: 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him

Hello King,
No argument here, God is the source of all Grace, Mary is not the source, but the channel that God uses to give us all His graces and gifts.

Secret of Mary

1. (3) God the Father, from whom, as from its essential source, every perfect gift and every grace come down to us , gave her every grace when he gave her his Son. Thus, as St Bernard says, the will of God is manifested to her in Jesus and with Jesus.

1. (4) God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.

Another way to look at it, is Christ (GOD) is the Head and Mary is the neck that connects the mystical body to the Head.

God Bless You!

 

[Kingtroll1]

*"9. (3) God the Father, from whom, as from its essential source, every perfect gift and every grace come down to us , gave her every grace when he gave her his Son. Thus, as St Bernard says, the will of God is manifested to her in Jesus and with Jesus.

1. (4) God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills. "*

Scripture justification please. As far as I can see in scripture God is the one who through grace draws people to himself. But no scripture has been shown so far that justifies this statement. In the tradition of the apostles where has the mouth of god spoken this?

 

[davidv]

"9. (3) God the Father, from whom, as from its essential source, every perfect gift and every grace come down to us , gave her every grace when he gave her his Son. Thus, as St Bernard says, the will of God is manifested to her in Jesus and with Jesus.

10. (4) God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills. "

Scripture justification please. As far as I can see in scripture God is the one who through grace draws people to himself. But no scripture has been shown so far that justifies this statement. In the tradition of the apostles where has the mouth of god spoken this?

Why must they be justified by scripture?

Scripture records that the Church will be guided to truth.

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (John (RSV) 14:26)

 

[De_Montfort]

Scripture justification please. As far as I can see in scripture God is the one who through grace draws people to himself. But no scripture has been shown so far that justifies this statement. In the tradition of the apostles where has the mouth of god spoken this?

As david said not all has to be in Scripture. But I do have some quotes for you to think over…
True Devotion

1. If we examine closely the remainder of the life of Jesus Christ, we see that he chose to begin his miracles through Mary. It was by her word that he sanctified Saint John the Baptist in the womb of his mother, Saint Elizabeth; no sooner had Mary spoken than John was sanctified. This was his first and greatest miracle of grace. At the wedding in Cana he changed water into wine at her humble prayer, and this was his first miracle in the order of nature. He began and continued his miracles through Mary and he will continue them through her until the end of time.

18.Even at his death she had to be present so that he might be united with her in one sacrifice and be immolated with her consent to the eternal Father,

 

[Kingtroll1]

Why must they be justified by scripture?

Scripture records that the Church will be guided to truth.

So that you are not deceived by the words of men or your own imagination. Therefore to determine if something is of god it must be derived from scripture. As scripture itself is the tool by which the holy spirit convicts men. And as the word of God is always greater than the word of man and the pillar of all doctrine.

*Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
*

Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of god:

*Deuteronomy 8:3
3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.*

All the apostles derived teaching from the old testament as did Jesus. So as with the writings of those apostles inspired as they are by the spirit of god. We are to do the same and follow their example. They did not depart from the word of god one bit as far as doctrine goes.

 

[Kingtroll1]

As david said not all has to be in Scripture. But I do have some quotes for you to think over…
True Devotion

Since Jesus Christ gave up the privileges of deity and limited himself in his humanity. I don’t think he did any miracles until after he received the holy spirit and began his ministry. Also to say that Mary prayed to Jesus while talking to him is not entirely accurate after all the disciples were taught to address prayers to the heavenly father. By implication therefore by that statement. Every person talking to Jesus is praying to him.

However to say that Mary shared in the sacrifice of Jesus is absolutely false. He bore and sins of the world alone as the sacrifice of mankind. No indication in the gospel has been given of the sharing of the humiliation, suffering that involved nails being pounded into his body, the spiritual darkness of all the sins of the world laying on you, sweating blood death and resurrection shared by mary

. The suffering of Mary which is the loss of the mother of her son do not even come close to the suffering of Jesus
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Church_Militant]

However to say that Mary shared in the sacrifice of Jesus is absolutely false. He bore and sins of the world alone as the sacrifice of mankind. No indication in the gospel has been given of the sharing of the humiliation, suffering that involved nails being pounded into his body, the spiritual darkness of all the sins of the world laying on you, sweating blood death and resurrection shared by mary

. The suffering of Mary which is the loss of the mother of her son do not even come close to the suffering of Jesus
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

That’s wrong.

'And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed." Luke 2:35

 

[brb3]

That’s wrong.

'And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed." Luke 2:35

Which you would interpret how ? Flesh it out fully, using additional scripture…if applicable, …esp. OT scripture (Psalms, Isaiah, etc).

 

[davidv]

So that you are not deceived by the words of men or your own imagination. Therefore to determine if something is of god it must be derived from scripture. As scripture itself is the tool by which the holy spirit convicts men. And as the word of God is always greater than the word of man and the pillar of all doctrine.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of god:

Deuteronomy 8:3
3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All the apostles derived teaching from the old testament as did Jesus. So as with the writings of those apostles inspired as they are by the spirit of god. We are to do the same and follow their example. They did not depart from the word of god one bit as far as doctrine goes.

I’d say that based on the above you have some things seriously wrong. The most serious one is the claim that Christ’s teaching comes from the OT. Jesus is God. His teachings came from himself. Since the Apostles were taught by Jesus, He was the source of their teaching, no the OT.

Edit: Since the above is way off topic, if you want to continue to discuss these points, please start a new thread.

 

[Dee_S]

All right guys. This is a continuation of the thread from Veneration vs Worship. My personal opinion is that all of them should be given to god. The totality of Veneration and worship is to be directed at god.

Worship & Veneration are two quite different words, with different meanings. One does not ‘venerate’ God
**
Adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the acknowledgement of excellence and perfection of an uncreated, divine person. It is the worship of the Creator that God alone deserves.**

Veneration (Latin veneratio, Greek δουλεία, douleia), or veneration of saints, is a special act of honoring a saint, a person who has been identified as having a high degree of sanctity or holiness

While I regard saints as heroes of faith what the reasons for devotion to mary?

This regard is known as Veneration.
Veneration, known as dulia in classical Catholic theology, is the honor due to the excellence of a created person.

The reason for ‘devotion’ to Mary - that she’s the Queen of All Saints is a good start

 

[Dee_S]

*"9. (3) God the Father, from whom, as from its essential source, every perfect gift and every grace come down to us , gave her every grace when he gave her his Son. Thus, as St Bernard says, the will of God is manifested to her in Jesus and with Jesus.

1. (4) God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills. "*

Scripture justification please. As far as I can see in scripture God is the one who through grace draws people to himself. But no scripture has been shown so far that justifies this statement. In the tradition of the apostles where has the mouth of god spoken this?

“the mouth of God” - are you serious The Bible is inspired by God, but it’s not like he was talking directly into the writer’s ear and telling him exactly what words to write down.

Anyway, Catholics do not live by Scripture alone - but obey and learn from the Magisterium of the Church.

Starting threads that question the legitimacy of devotion to Mary, unless handled carefully and used as a ‘lesson’ to lead others towards this veneration of the Queen of All Saints - can and will cause offense. I’m wondering exactly what point you are trying to make or rather, what do you wish to learn by this

 

[LilyM]

“the mouth of God” - are you serious The Bible is inspired by God, but it’s not like he was talking directly into the writer’s ear and telling him exactly what words to write down.

Anyway, Catholics do not live by Scripture alone - but obey and learn from the Magisterium of the Church.

Starting threads that question the legitimacy of devotion to Mary, unless handled carefully and used as a ‘lesson’ to lead others towards this veneration of the Queen of All Saints - can and will cause offense. I’m wondering exactly what point you are trying to make or rather, what do you wish to learn by this

I might add all Christians do not live by Scripture alone - for one glaring example,where is the table of contents of the bible revealed in Scripture itself? Few of its writers claim divine inspiration for their writings either implicitly or explicitly, and many writers claimed it whose writings were excluded. So how exactly did this ‘mouth of God’ ell us which books to include?

 

[De_Montfort]

Which you would interpret how ? Flesh it out fully, using additional scripture…if applicable, …esp. OT scripture (Psalms, Isaiah, etc).

Lamentations 2:13 speaks of the uncomparable sorrow of the Mother of God.

“How can I describe you, to what compare you daughter of Jerusalem? Who can rescue and comfort you, virgin daughter of Zion.”

 

[brb3]

Lamentations 2:13 speaks of the uncomparable sorrow of the Mother of God.

“How can I describe you, to what compare you daughter of JerusFind alem? Who can rescue and comfort you, virgin daughter of Zion.”

Yes, but also applies to the Church, the virgin bride of Christ, which includes Mary !

Find some for only Mary, and not the Church !!!

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Yes, but also applies to the Church, the virgin bride of Christ, which includes Mary !

Find some for only Mary, and not the Church !!!

Why?

 

[Jennifoo]

I might add all Christians do not live by Scripture alone - for one glaring example,where is the table of contents of the bible revealed in Scripture itself? Few of its writers claim divine inspiration for their writings either implicitly or explicitly, and many writers claimed it whose writings were excluded. So how exactly did this ‘mouth of God’ ell us which books to include?

Thanks for making this important point.

 

[JM3]

Yes, but also applies to the Church, the virgin bride of Christ, which includes Mary !

Find some for only Mary, and not the Church !!!

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm58.htm