The limit of Muslim love

[Aydan]

I’ve never lived in a Muslim country but I’ve had contact with Turkish people and I have had the same experience as you I get invited to events and they have shown me nothing but love and respect.I love Turkey and its people I have many many Turkish friends I even follow a Turkish soccer team. Now to answer your question directly no I don’t think Muslims are going straight to hell I hope that God will have mercy on them. I believe as a Catholic it is not my place to judge who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

I am curious, do you think Muslims are going straight to hell? If so, what is the difference? It sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

My purpose is not to offend, but to help fellow Christians to evangelize in a more effective manner. Seldom do we catch the fly with a bowl of vinegar. When we speak in love, with patience, and full of kindness the walls come down and hearts soften and the Spirit is felt more easily.

Living in a Muslim country I have never felt rejected, unloved, or abused by my neighbors. They invite me to Muslim holidays, they treat as family, and are consistently kind. I can find no fault in their behavior. The things you have stated or brought up don’t seem to be present in their behavior.

 

[Aydan]

Do you live in Dubai or Bahrain, or somewhere like the outskirts of Pakistan?

Because some “muslim” countries are indeed like “Catholic” countries. They are pretty liberal with respect to their own teachings.

As for teachings of the RC on Muslims, I made a post earlier on this thread about that. It was my first post on this thread and has some links which will answer your question.

EDIT:

Here it is

What we have in common and Catholic view towards Islam:-
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp

What we find problematic in Islam:-
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0210bt.asp

God Bless

I have to agree because everything I stated has been verified by the teachings in the Quran and Mohammed’s own words I studied Islam extensively over the past few years including reading the entire Quran from cover to cover. I never said Muslims were not good loving people I was nearly stating what their holy book says. I’m a little shocked actually that I’m being accused of speaking ill of Muslims I’ve devoted the last three years learning Turkish so I could help Turks learn English.

 

[ADouglass]

I am curious, do you think Muslims are going straight to hell? If so, what is the difference? It sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

My purpose is not to offend, but to help fellow Christians to evangelize in a more effective manner. Seldom do we catch the fly with a bowl of vinegar. When we speak in love, with patience, and full of kindness the walls come down and hearts soften and the Spirit is felt more easily.

Living in a Muslim country I have never felt rejected, unloved, or abused by my neighbors. They invite me to Muslim holidays, they treat as family, and are consistently kind. I can find no fault in their behavior. The things you have stated or brought up don’t seem to be present in their behavior.

One can only point out that much of sharia law has been done away with in UAE. I’m sure that the laws in UAE are based on sharia law, but have been adapted to meet modern needs. Take for example their law against interest. Muslim countries have banks. The only way they can justify their banks charging interest is by calling it something else, which they do, and they think this is following their law. ???

Likewise they say that they are following the teachings of the Quran when they love those who reject Mohammed as a prophet. But again, it is an exercise in deception.

 

[JeanMichel]

One can only point out that much of sharia law has been done away with in UAE. I’m sure that the laws in UAE are based on sharia law, but have been adapted to meet modern needs. Take for example their law against interest. Muslim countries have banks. The only way they can justify their banks charging interest is by calling it something else, which they do, and they think this is following their law. ???

Likewise they say that they are following the teachings of the Quran when they love those who reject Mohammed as a prophet. But again, it is an exercise in deception.

It does seem like man will always rationalize how to follow God and meet the desires of the flesh at the same time. Islam is no different. Your example is spot on, there are banks and they provide interest to their depositors and somehow meet the demands of Sharia. The fashion that it is achieved is wholly done through rationalization. I think we find examples of Christians that do the same thing; know the commandments and then create ways to circumvent their true meaning. It boils down to keeping the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit of the law completely.

I try not to be quick to find fault with the actions of others when I know that I am sinner. My desire is to be an instrument in His hands and then allow the Spirit to convince others of the truth of Christ. If through my daily repentance I can be found an example of being Christ’s disciple, then for that day, I have done a good thing.

Our Muslim brothers and sisters have much truth and in many ways they life a Christ-like life. By love and perseverance they will one day join with us and their knee will bow in love to the Holy One of Israel.

 

[benidict]

I think it depends on their upbringing.

My best friend is a Muslim and he’s the most selfless person I’ve ever met. He doesn’t realise this though. His Dad went to a Christian school.

On the other hand… My sister converted to Islam and she’s even more hateful than she ever has been. She ‘liked’ a picture on Facebook of a Muslim shooting an American soldier and asked why anyone would want to be friends with an atheist.

I really think it depends on who has brought them up in their faith. Also, my sister has always been angry, so I guess she finally found something that suits her views. Sometimes she upsets my little sister by unChristian things, such as ‘you should think you’re better than others’ etc…

I don’t know which is the correct interpretation, but the second one is sick and has no place in the world.

Does your sister drive? Is she able to walk to the store unescorted? Can she hold a job? If so, then you can tell her to thank the next British, Austrailian, soldier she meets for these liberties, that she would not have in a hard core Muslim society. Oh and tell her I forgive her ignorance, and that she is welcome from me as well. Peace and prayers for her. I hope this is just a phase she is going through. I really feel for the women who do live in these societies. Its really a sad situation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think it depends on their upbringing.

My best friend is a Muslim and he’s the most selfless person I’ve ever met. He doesn’t realise this though. His Dad went to a Christian school.

On the other hand… My sister converted to Islam and she’s even more hateful than she ever has been. She ‘liked’ a picture on Facebook of a Muslim shooting an American soldier and asked why anyone would want to be friends with an atheist.

I really think it depends on who has brought them up in their faith. Also, my sister has always been angry, so I guess she finally found something that suits her views. Sometimes she upsets my little sister by unChristian things, such as ‘you should think you’re better than others’ etc…

I don’t know which is the correct interpretation, but the second one is sick and has no place in the world.

Sad, You guys will be fighting for the country you forefounders founded. Over sharia law and other foolishness at the rate your going.

 

[Aydan]

It does seem like man will always rationalize how to follow God and meet the desires of the flesh at the same time. Islam is no different. Your example is spot on, there are banks and they provide interest to their depositors and somehow meet the demands of Sharia. The fashion that it is achieved is wholly done through rationalization. I think we find examples of Christians that do the same thing; know the commandments and then create ways to circumvent their true meaning. It boils down to keeping the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit of the law completely.

I try not to be quick to find fault with the actions of others when I know that I am sinner. My desire is to be an instrument in His hands and then allow the Spirit to convince others of the truth of Christ. If through my daily repentance I can be found an example of being Christ’s disciple, then for that day, I have done a good thing.

Our Muslim brothers and sisters have much truth and in many ways they life a Christ-like life. By love and perseverance they will one day join with us and their knee will bow in love to the Holy One of Israel.

I agree with everything you’re saying and I don’t think we should be quick to judge but we also should be aware that some Muslims believe their faith calls on them to kill and subjugate non-Muslims if they do not convert to Islam. I am aware of no other religion that has this written in its scriptures. Just look at the recent attacks in Egypt against Christians for example so we cannot simply ignore the fact that these things exist in Islam if we do it will be at our peril.

 

[bluelake]

well think of it like this when a Christian says Allah we mean something totally different for us it means God in a loving since because Jesus tells us to love our neighbor. When a Muslim says Allah they are taught not to love unbelievers and that means anyone who is not Muslim. So in a way we are rejecting something but it is not Allah we are rejecting it is Islam and its teachings. So you were right you just have to reject Islam. It all depends on who is saying Allah.

Who is Allah?

bluelake

 

[ADouglass]

Who is Allah?

bluelake

No offense, but have you even read this thread? Allah is arabic for God. God is the Holy Trinity. The Quran is not of God.

 

[Aydan]

No offense, but have you even read this thread? Allah is arabic for God. God is the Holy Trinity. The Quran is not of God.

well I can understand the confusion here because some people think that Allah is a moon god because there was a pagan idol with the same name in Mecca so some people flat out refused to use it for that reason. But to make the distinction absolutely clear Allah is the Arabic word for the one true God of course for Christians that means the God as in the father for Muslims it means the creator that is why the church argues we believe in the same God. As an aside I learned that many Turkish Christians refuse to use the word Allah and instead they use an ancient Turkish word but I will not do so because this ancient word also refers to mythological figures.

 

[Aydan]

Who is Allah?

bluelake

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. To Christians that use it it refers to God the Father in the holy Trinity for Muslims it refers to the one and only creator. I hope this answers your question.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

well I can understand the confusion here because some people think that Allah is a moon god because there was a pagan idol with the same name in Mecca so some people flat out refused to use it for that reason. But to make the distinction absolutely clear Allah is the Arabic word for the one true God of course for Christians that means the God as in the father for Muslims it means the creator that is why the church argues we believe in the same God. As an aside I learned that many Turkish Christians refuse to use the word Allah and instead they use an ancient Turkish word but I will not do so because this ancient word also refers to mythological figures.

The Kabba Was Worshipped Long Before Islam Was. It Supposedly Contains A Meteorite Sent By The Moon God. The Moon Symbolism In The Flag of Islam belies Its “Moon-God” Origins. read the works Of Walid Shoebat, Ex-Muslim Terrorist Turned Christian. You Will Find Confirmation There. Also The Works Of Robert Spencer.

 

[Aydan]

The Kabba Was Worshipped Long Before Islam Was. It Supposedly Contains A Meteorite Sent By The Moon God. The Moon Symbolism In The Flag of Islam belies Its “Moon-God” Origins. read the works Of Walid Shoebat, Ex-Muslim Terrorist Turned Christian. You Will Find Confirmation There. Also The Works Of Robert Spencer.

yeah I’m well aware of the moon god argument and I’ve read the works of both men I just finished two of Spencer’s books however Arabic Christians use the word Allah so Christians also use the same word to my knowledge. For me personally I prefer to say God in Turkish and not English so I use Allah.

 

[ADouglass]

This might help. oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Allah

 

[Aydan]

Today I read about a Christian mother who was arrested on charges of blasphemy for allegedly insulting the Islamic prophet Mohammed and Islam. I think she is Catholic the local Catholic church is trying to help her. This is why I think it is so important for us to understand the difference between the interpretation of the Quran by those that will kill us and interpretations of those who are trying to reform Islam. You can read more about her story here
speroforum.com/a/48970/Pakistan-Yet-another-Christian-accused-of-blasphemy

 

[elwill]

Surah 58 22. “Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.” source: islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/58.htm

I not only resist “Allah and His Messenger,” I fully reject both “Allah” and “His Messenger.” Therefore, Muslims will not love me. I can therefore expect either indifference or hate. Or am I missing something?

’ Hadda” which is translated to “resist” is referring to those who have hostility against Allah and his messenger.
this word refer to specific kind of resistence which attached to enmity
so again this arabic word " Hadda’ can’t refer to normal disagreement , it refer to someone take islam as an enemy

The behavior towards the normal non-Muslims who are not hostile against Allah and his messengers if described in these verses.

“Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.” (Quran 60:8)
The next verse says
“Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.” (Quran 60:9)

 

[ddarko]

’ Hadda” which is translated to “resist” is referring to those who have hostility against Allah and his messenger.
this word refer to specific kind of resistence which attached to enmity
so again this arabic word " Hadda’ can’t refer to normal disagreement , it refer to someone take islam as an enemy

The behavior towards the normal non-Muslims who are not hostile against Allah and his messengers if described in these verses.

“Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.” (Quran 60:8)
The next verse says
“Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.” (Quran 60:9)

That’s very comforting to hear. What about these,

“slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them” (Q 9:5)

“Fight those who do not . . . follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book *, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection” (Q 9:29)

God Bless *

 

[Aydan]

yes but that depends on the definition of enemy the Muslim is using I heard one cleric from the UK say that the only innocent people are fellow Muslims and it’s perfectly okay to kill infidels because they are like cows.

’ Hadda” which is translated to “resist” is referring to those who have hostility against Allah and his messenger.
this word refer to specific kind of resistence which attached to enmity
so again this arabic word " Hadda’ can’t refer to normal disagreement , it refer to someone take islam as an enemy

The behavior towards the normal non-Muslims who are not hostile against Allah and his messengers if described in these verses.

“Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.” (Quran 60:8)
The next verse says
“Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.” (Quran 60:9)

 

[Aydan]

Yeah it is nice but terrorists who wage war say that Muslims that have these opinions and interpretations are apostates and should be killed because they are not following the true Islam.

That’s very comforting to hear. What about these,

“slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them” (Q 9:5)

“Fight those who do not . . . follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book *, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection” (Q 9:29)

God Bless *

 

[JeanMichel]

I agree with everything you’re saying and I don’t think we should be quick to judge but we also should be aware that some Muslims believe their faith calls on them to kill and subjugate non-Muslims if they do not convert to Islam. I am aware of no other religion that has this written in its scriptures. Just look at the recent attacks in Egypt against Christians for example so we cannot simply ignore the fact that these things exist in Islam if we do it will be at our peril.

My brother Aydan, I concur with you. I am not aware of any other religion that is so prepared to be so militant. Yet, I know so many Muslims and they would not even think of raising a hand against Christians or anyone else. Those parts of Islam and the Qur’an seem to have been put away or understood in a new light…that it is unacceptable.

As I say that I also realize that I suspect they could be pushed into fighting for their survival or the survival of Islam, but I don’t view that position in the same light.

I live among Muslims and will do so for many years. I have had no one pressure me to convert or even question my Christianity. It has been interesting in that I have been asked if I was Muslim because I treat people so well, but it is at those times that I kindly tell them that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, a Christian. This has always be a surprise for them.

We need more of these types of surprises among the Muslim world. I humbly pray that I will be always be humble enough, to remain in a state of penance, that the Holy Spirit will work through me to touch the lives of others. God bless,