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CoffeeFanatic
Guest
Every non-Muslim Arabic speaker I know (that I’ve bothered to ask) says it’s a bogus claim. After reading it, I’m not impressed with it in English, I can tell you that.
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C
CoffeeFanatic
Guest
I despised Ulysses. It’s not worth the paper it was written on, in my estimation.
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Pattylt
Guest
It seems to me that if the claim is that it is the direct, dictated word of God, everyone that reads it would feel God coming through, would be assured of God, would actually experience God. That’s rather obviously not true.
Muslims are every bit as primed to find the beauty and truth of the Quran as Christians are of the Bible and Mormons are of the BOM. Without that priming, it’s just not that special. Sure, all of the books have their beauty or wisdom in parts…but none have them in their whole. Muslims want to insist on the Quran being this amazing perfect book because THEY find it an amazing perfect book. They need to be able to show that a non Muslim will also react the same way. They can’t, so they just insist. I found it rather meh, repetitive and overboard with some occasional nice and interesting parts. God didn’t jump out at me in the least…which I would expect from a God written book.
Muslims are every bit as primed to find the beauty and truth of the Quran as Christians are of the Bible and Mormons are of the BOM. Without that priming, it’s just not that special. Sure, all of the books have their beauty or wisdom in parts…but none have them in their whole. Muslims want to insist on the Quran being this amazing perfect book because THEY find it an amazing perfect book. They need to be able to show that a non Muslim will also react the same way. They can’t, so they just insist. I found it rather meh, repetitive and overboard with some occasional nice and interesting parts. God didn’t jump out at me in the least…which I would expect from a God written book.
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abucs
Guest
I’m one of the people who started Ulysses but didn’t finish it.I despised Ulysses . It’s not worth the paper it was written on, in my estimation.
I could see the inventive approach and skill needed to compose it but I just wasn’t enjoying it as a reader.
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huck
Guest
I don’t know about the Koran but it reminds me of back when I was a new Christian I shelled out good money for a book that there was a numeral relationship in the bible.Does anyone know any actual responces to the literary miracle of the Quran? The claim is not that its so beautiful that it cant be imitated, the claim is that its unique in its style, and that all other literary masterpieces follows a certain style, but not this.
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OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
The question is what is the style and what makes it unique from any other text ever written.
If you find out please make a thread to discuss it. I would be very interested from a literary perspective .
It is great that we have many different literary styles, this does not mean they are unique or divinely inspired.
But it does mean it is quite ok to have them as unique and varying styles. . Is the Koran written as one book , or like the Bible , does it have many books with many genres. The Old Testament book of Jonah , for example, has what we call historical narrative in Ch. 1, 3, 4. Jonah ran from God, headed in the opposite direction, a huge storm threatens the boat he is escaping Gods request on. Then in Ch. 2 it switches to poetry in Jonah’s prayer to God. This is a very unique piece of writing because in its text, it is breaking Psalm and lament Biblical norms. Is Jonah repentant, praising God, lamenting his situation in a fish belly… Then in Ch 3 Jonah goes to tell his enemy that if they dont repent, God will punish them. This chapter switches to historical narrative, The king listens, everyone wears sackcloth, even the animals. Jonah sits in a hill getting hot and angry. He wants God to destroy the city of his enemy. God grows him a plant for shade, then sends a worm to eat it. There is dialogue between God and His prophet. But does Jonah truly repent His disobedience?
If you find out please make a thread to discuss it. I would be very interested from a literary perspective .
It is great that we have many different literary styles, this does not mean they are unique or divinely inspired.
But it does mean it is quite ok to have them as unique and varying styles. . Is the Koran written as one book , or like the Bible , does it have many books with many genres. The Old Testament book of Jonah , for example, has what we call historical narrative in Ch. 1, 3, 4. Jonah ran from God, headed in the opposite direction, a huge storm threatens the boat he is escaping Gods request on. Then in Ch. 2 it switches to poetry in Jonah’s prayer to God. This is a very unique piece of writing because in its text, it is breaking Psalm and lament Biblical norms. Is Jonah repentant, praising God, lamenting his situation in a fish belly… Then in Ch 3 Jonah goes to tell his enemy that if they dont repent, God will punish them. This chapter switches to historical narrative, The king listens, everyone wears sackcloth, even the animals. Jonah sits in a hill getting hot and angry. He wants God to destroy the city of his enemy. God grows him a plant for shade, then sends a worm to eat it. There is dialogue between God and His prophet. But does Jonah truly repent His disobedience?
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IdaCatholic
Guest
Every literary style was at one time unique. From Beowulf, To the Iliad, To the Bard’s iambic pentameter. At one time, everything was unique. So this is a horrible way to try to prove a scripture. Plus, there are language and cultural barriers. It is similar to the west being exposed to the Brothers Karamazov and thinking it was so unique and different that it must be divinely inspired. The Koran came from a world different from western and Christian philosophy and thought and language. It would only make sense that it was different in style.
Today there is so much written media that isn’t even in book form. I may run across a blog written in a style or flow that I have never seen. One can read a Tarantino script and dialogue and be moved by the style and word. Much is made in education of the styles of the author’s of the Bible. From David, to John, to "the author “Q”
The Koran is not as unique as one might think. At least not in English.
Today there is so much written media that isn’t even in book form. I may run across a blog written in a style or flow that I have never seen. One can read a Tarantino script and dialogue and be moved by the style and word. Much is made in education of the styles of the author’s of the Bible. From David, to John, to "the author “Q”
The Koran is not as unique as one might think. At least not in English.
M
Major
Guest
It is very dangerous argument as classical theology holds there is objective beauty. Not everything is matter of taste, there are things which have share in the Beauty and if we don’t see their beauty it is only due to our deformed perception. I believe claim is that Quran posses this type of beauty.
By the way as far as I know Muslims believe also that (because of its divine origin) Quran is impossible to translate, they consider translations only as commentaries. Thus any argument based solely on english version will not convince them at all.
By the way as far as I know Muslims believe also that (because of its divine origin) Quran is impossible to translate, they consider translations only as commentaries. Thus any argument based solely on english version will not convince them at all.
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Hodos
Guest
Yeah, just address the content which is filled with contradictions and historical inaccuracies. Subjective stylistic critique is secondary to what the Quran actually says, particularly if it is making exclusive truth claims that can be refuted. The reason you don’t see a lot of apologists address this point is because it is a completely self-serving and subjective claim that only has value to its own adherents.
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AnomalyMagnet777
Guest
A few arguments I’ve found from Muslim Apologists claiming that the Quran is a so-called “Literary Miracle”, set apart from all others are-
“Prophet Ibrahim was very PRECISE in the way he used the correct pronoun to praise Allah”
OR,
“The PRECISION of the use of the words ‘woman’ and ‘wife’ when referring to Prophet Zachariya’s wife” … (apparently using the appropriate title in the correct situation is somehow astounding?)
Another piece of evidence taken seriously about the Quran’s literary miracle : “The SPECIFIC words used when referring to the qualities of the sun and moon.” (right there, AGAIN, being specific in language’s meaning gives the persona of miraculous to them)
I’ve Also seen them literally say “It’s a MIRACLE how Allah mentions the AMOUNT of years that the people of the cave remained in the cave.”
(Again, they say the language and linguistics are the meat of this so called literary miracle)
A verse I’ve heard quoted numerous times to “Prove” the Quran’s literary miraculous uniqueness is:
“And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine” 18:25
(Right there, AGAIN, they believe that their perceived precision of language is Proof, it’s sad really)
I read the Quran long ago when I was “exploring” Truth and it is brainwashing in my objective opinion.
The Quran is Vague & blatantly contradicts itself without any shift in contextual dimensions as the antagonist to these contradictions, such as the Bible, the only contradictions in the Bible are contradictions when read out of context.
Verses can also be twisted to explain how their “Allah is giving us the PRECISE time spent in both the solar and lunar calendars” (AGAIN, the word precise, precision, exact, etc)
& “The phonetic beauty of the Quran is remarkable to recite and charming to listen to.”
I see it as witchcraft. You can only understand the book once you have surrendered to its doctrine and any logical opposition produces an emotional reaction resulting in many deaths because it’s not a literary miracle in any sense.
They are traumatized as children and then indoctrinated to accept this religion as Truth even if it means killing an infidel in the name of your “god”…
“Prophet Ibrahim was very PRECISE in the way he used the correct pronoun to praise Allah”
OR,
“The PRECISION of the use of the words ‘woman’ and ‘wife’ when referring to Prophet Zachariya’s wife” … (apparently using the appropriate title in the correct situation is somehow astounding?)
Another piece of evidence taken seriously about the Quran’s literary miracle : “The SPECIFIC words used when referring to the qualities of the sun and moon.” (right there, AGAIN, being specific in language’s meaning gives the persona of miraculous to them)
I’ve Also seen them literally say “It’s a MIRACLE how Allah mentions the AMOUNT of years that the people of the cave remained in the cave.”
(Again, they say the language and linguistics are the meat of this so called literary miracle)
A verse I’ve heard quoted numerous times to “Prove” the Quran’s literary miraculous uniqueness is:
“And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine” 18:25
(Right there, AGAIN, they believe that their perceived precision of language is Proof, it’s sad really)
I read the Quran long ago when I was “exploring” Truth and it is brainwashing in my objective opinion.
The Quran is Vague & blatantly contradicts itself without any shift in contextual dimensions as the antagonist to these contradictions, such as the Bible, the only contradictions in the Bible are contradictions when read out of context.
Verses can also be twisted to explain how their “Allah is giving us the PRECISE time spent in both the solar and lunar calendars” (AGAIN, the word precise, precision, exact, etc)
& “The phonetic beauty of the Quran is remarkable to recite and charming to listen to.”
I see it as witchcraft. You can only understand the book once you have surrendered to its doctrine and any logical opposition produces an emotional reaction resulting in many deaths because it’s not a literary miracle in any sense.
They are traumatized as children and then indoctrinated to accept this religion as Truth even if it means killing an infidel in the name of your “god”…
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preacher_of_christ
Guest
Yes but people can imitate these.
J
JustLOL
Guest
It’s no more a “literary miracle” as the Bible. The Quran or Bible is a matter of Function over Form.
I can only speak of the form and not the function of the Quran. Asking a typical Christian audience this question is meaningless.
A typical Christian cannot offer a literary critic of the Bible, let alone the Quran.
If there is a “miracle” in either writings, it is a spiritual miracle, and probably not a literary miracle.
it is the spirit that moves us, not words on paper. The guidance of the spirit is contained in the Mysteries of our faith, which might be equated to Miracles, but the writings alone do not.
I can only speak of the form and not the function of the Quran. Asking a typical Christian audience this question is meaningless.
A typical Christian cannot offer a literary critic of the Bible, let alone the Quran.
If there is a “miracle” in either writings, it is a spiritual miracle, and probably not a literary miracle.
it is the spirit that moves us, not words on paper. The guidance of the spirit is contained in the Mysteries of our faith, which might be equated to Miracles, but the writings alone do not.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
You said:
So how isThe claim is not that its so beautiful that it cant be imitated
a meaningful response?Yes but people can imitate these.
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preacher_of_christ
Guest
The objective crietria.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
What?The objective crietria.
You said that the argument is not that it’s inimitable but that it’s not an imitation. Why are you now talking about how other novel works are imitable?
Stop moving the goalposts.
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preacher_of_christ
Guest
No, the linguistics follows certain objective things. And the claim is that the linguistics of the Quran is beyond the human style.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
RiiiiiiiiiiiightNo, the linguistics follows certain objective things. And the claim is that the linguistics of the Quran is beyond the human style.
Moving the goalposts. This was not the original argument. Bye.
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OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
in what way is the koran beyond human style specifically? And if so, how is it humans can read and understand it?No, the linguistics follows certain objective things. And the claim is that the linguistics of the Quran is beyond the human style.
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preacher_of_christ
Guest
It is actualy the exact same argument.
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preacher_of_christ
Guest
I dont know anything about this and thats why i asked for information on it.
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