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Scapegoat
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This whole redemption vs. salvation thing makes me think of the times when Hollywood confuses the Immaculate Conception for the Incarnation.
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Kevin12
Guest
I think C.S. Lewis had an idea about the gates of Hell being locked from the inside - that the damned would not be joined with God even if they could. I think it had some merit. As such, one might say that giving people the right to chose their damnation if they will is God’s love.
However, I think it is possible for some Atheists to be saved. Think about, for example, officially atheist North Korea, a country that keeps its citizens locked in like a prison and controls all information that flows out of it. It would actually be hard for anyone in that country to be anything but invincibly ignorant, because the state makes sure all its citizens know absolutely nothing about the outside world.
But as for Richard Dawkins and his ilk, no, they cannot be saved unless the repent. I know many people like this myself - I can only hope that, if they won’t change their minds in life, they at least leads lives good enough to get to something like Dante’s city of human reason, where they will only be deprived of a hope they never had in the first place.
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Jon_S_1
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Aaron780
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What the Pope said the other day about athiests stirred up a right hornets nest where I am, and ive been having serious doubts about even wanting to become Catholic now, Ive had my family, friends all having a laugh at me because of this, Saying things like “even the Pope doesnt care whether your Catholic or not”, “Just be a good person and all will be fine” and a whole lot more that I wont go into it, In work today everyone was talking about it, saying “you dont have to be Catholic to go to Heaven, what rubbish, even your Pope just confirmed this!”, look there are hardly any Catholics around me to back me up, Im surrounded by Protestants and athiests and no matter what I say they all think im wrong, I just wish the Pope didnt say this or at least be a bit more clear on what he was saying thats all, If he thought this might bring more people to the church then its failed badly where im from! this will have the opposite effect im afraid, How can he go from Jesus wont be found outside of the church to Its all good if your an athiest?? Its confusing, It was hard enough for me trying to become Catholic anyway without having this now.
One other problem im having is trying to find a sponsor, I can convert at any time but I cant get a sponsor, the priest at my church has tried a few people now but they are not keen to do because they dont really know me that well and I dont blame them, Like I said I dont know any other Catholics to ask so what do I do?? and this is turning me off the church to be honest, Its like hey im here take me im yours I want to be a Catholic! but no your not allowed because you dont have a sponsor!? I think to myself would Jesus do that? we he turn me away because someone doesnt vouch for me? I dont think so, all these rules is just giving me doubts thats all, you would think with the amount of people walking away from the church in the western world in particular, that they could at least make things a little easier, Ive learnt so much in the last 8 months but its still not good enough, I think I might just stick to my protestant church now, I just dont know what to think anymore, Hey I can even be an athiest and its all hunky dory…sorry for the rant guys its just ive had a bad few days with all this, so many people in my ear telling to stay away from the Catholic church, I need help…
One other problem im having is trying to find a sponsor, I can convert at any time but I cant get a sponsor, the priest at my church has tried a few people now but they are not keen to do because they dont really know me that well and I dont blame them, Like I said I dont know any other Catholics to ask so what do I do?? and this is turning me off the church to be honest, Its like hey im here take me im yours I want to be a Catholic! but no your not allowed because you dont have a sponsor!? I think to myself would Jesus do that? we he turn me away because someone doesnt vouch for me? I dont think so, all these rules is just giving me doubts thats all, you would think with the amount of people walking away from the church in the western world in particular, that they could at least make things a little easier, Ive learnt so much in the last 8 months but its still not good enough, I think I might just stick to my protestant church now, I just dont know what to think anymore, Hey I can even be an athiest and its all hunky dory…sorry for the rant guys its just ive had a bad few days with all this, so many people in my ear telling to stay away from the Catholic church, I need help…
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I am so sorry you are going through this. I think you understand that the Pope was not saying Atheists are saved, merely that Christ redeemed all mankind. We still have to accept that gift. Also, he said, as is common sense, that even atheists, everyone can do charitable works. He said lets meet in a spirit if sacrificial giving, commonality, however limited, and move on from there.
The media had an agenda that is not God’s
Your Protestant Friends have an agenda against the church
Your atheist friends do to.
And guess what, so does Satan. And he is going to be extra harsh on you the closer you get to joining the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Despite that God is greater, have faith and listen to Him
I too am one of the few Catholics I know. I came from evangelical family, was raised relatively anti catholic. Stumbled upon the church and the catholic faith by God’s prompting on my heart and diligent study. I started going to mass and knew no one. Not a soul. My parish has a well developed RCIA. I met with the lay people in charge and signed up for inquiry. The parish has about 20 lay people running RCIA. I know this is not the norm, but perhaps there is a parish near you that has a more vibrant community and developed RCIA program. I didn’t know anyone to ask to be a sponsor, so they found someone that’s a perfect match for me. He went through RCIA last year, similar age, family, and career.
All that to say…not all parishes are created equal so if it is not working where you are, look around and see if there’s another. If that’s not possible, push father to find you a sponsor. IMO, that is completely unacceptable, to hold you back because of that issue.
I may be wrong, but there should be no reason the priest can’t be your sponsor if need be.
PM me anytime, and I’d be happy to chat, whatever, just please continue following Gods call. Protestantism may be easier, but that doesn’t mean it’s true.
Your friends may ridicule you, that just proves your on the right path, because “small is the gate and narrow the path, and few find it .”
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Jon_S_1
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Aaron780
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I understand what the Pope was saying, I really do, but its the ignorant people around me who dont, they dont get it! To them im some weirdo in what im doing, Im a bit down right now, Im just so close now and its frustrating, and its like the world keeps throwing road blocks infront of me, all I want to be is a Catholic and get closer to Jesus but its like something is trying to stop me from doing it, then I get these doubts all the time now on whether im even supposed to be apart of the church? maybe its just not meant to be? is everyone else right and im wrong?? doesnt Jesus want me here? I just dont know!? And its been my priest whos been teaching me all this time, how could he recieve me and be my sponsor? he hasnt mentioned he could do that yet, It was meant to happen early next month but I cant do anything till I get sponsor…
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Jon_S_1
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If he is the only priest in your parish, he can’t because he has to officiate, but I’m sure he has a priest/Deacon friend who can.
There is someone trying to stop you. Satan! This is spiritual warfare. Pray for courage, strength and wisdom. You got good people on this forum, and it sounds like hopefully a good priest so keep talking to him and talk to him about getting you a sponsor, even if it has to be him.
Do you ever listen to the Catholic Answers Podcasts? I have found great peace and encouragement in hearing all the experts in that show and all the callers walking a similar journey.
Catholic.com/radio
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Aaron780
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Thanks for your help, but would Satan really give a dam about a single soul like me? I just think hes probably got bigger fish to fry thats all, It should be easier now though shouldnt it? but the closer I get the harder it gets…
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Jon_S_1
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I hear it gets harder after your confirmed. And yes Satan fights for every soul he can. Remember it was his pride that put him at odds with God and it is his pride that fuels him to try to destroy every inch of God’s goodness.
" (the world will tell you) Listen to me…There is a natural order to this world, and those who try to upend it do not fare well. This movement will never survive. If you join them, you and your entire family will be shunned. At best, you exist as pariah, to be spat on and beaten. At worst, lynched or crucified.
And for what? For what? No matter what you do, it will never amount to anything more than a single drop in a limitless ocean."
(To which we respond) “What is an ocean but a multitude of drops?”
End of The movie Cloud Atlas
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Lucky7
Guest
Oh Aaron I am so sorry you are going through this. I honestly do not know what I would do if I were in your shoes at this time. I was in a different place and it was a different time when I went through RCIA. Normally I would offer to be your sponsor in a heartbeat (if that was even a possibility), but I am also going through some stuff right now. Trust that you will be in my prayers as part of CAF. I think there are a lot more people than you know that are going through a rough time right now for similar reasons, so know you are not alone.
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Lucky7
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Just thought I’d post this I found this morning:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301118.htm
It appears he is now the official English translator for the Vatican Press Office.
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Margy1948
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Someone on this thread had the audacity to imply that some atheists…but not all…could be saved. No one knows what is in the heart of anyone else.
Except God.
We are not here to judge each other, we are here to help each other, to do good to each other. I also do not believe that the way the Pope’s words are being interpreted here is correct. I believe that salvation is available to everyone regardless of their beliefs, tho it seems that a lot of writers here have adopted the belief system of evangelical Baptists, which is okay, that’s their right, but is, I believe flawed reasoning.
I believe that Jews, Muslims and Buddhists will go to Heaven and I believe that is exactly what the Pope meant, however, I am not one who enjoys the notion of a Heaven closed to most of God’s creatures.
Except God.
We are not here to judge each other, we are here to help each other, to do good to each other. I also do not believe that the way the Pope’s words are being interpreted here is correct. I believe that salvation is available to everyone regardless of their beliefs, tho it seems that a lot of writers here have adopted the belief system of evangelical Baptists, which is okay, that’s their right, but is, I believe flawed reasoning.
I believe that Jews, Muslims and Buddhists will go to Heaven and I believe that is exactly what the Pope meant, however, I am not one who enjoys the notion of a Heaven closed to most of God’s creatures.
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russet1
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How does one get to heaven?
Can a person be in mortal sin and attain heaven?
Is there a path or instruction that lays out the Path to heaven?
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I am just curious, if you believe this is true, why does the church do missionary work?
Why did Christ tell people to go to the ends of the earth, when Hinduism and Roman Paganism, and A host of other religions were already in place.
Why does the church set up in every country around the world to share Christ with people of other religions?
I understand that we cannot judge the hearts if men, I also acknowledge that God knows men’s hearts, and it will be the love of God in their hearts and their seeking of him to the best of their knoeledge that allows salvation.
So I seriously ask, if in today’s day and age, all paths lead to the top of the mountain, then shouldn’t we not care about expanding the Christian Faith?
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PTL
Guest
It is amazing to watch this thread. Are you saying everyone will (definite) go to heaven? Or are you saying everyone has an opportunity to go to heaven? Surely all human beings, including Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, are given an opportunity for heaven. That does not mean all will go to heaven. The two sayings are different.
The Holy Father meant everyone has a chance to go to heaven. He did not say everyone will(definitely) go to heaven.
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Margy1948
Guest
Of course, there is no logic to the notion that everyone, including those who abuse children and animals or those who participated in the actions of Nazi Germany either by commission or omission, have been granted a free ticket into Heaven, what I am saying is that no one knows if they’re going to Heaven or not. And the presumption that some Catholics are voicing that only Catholics know who is going to make it is narcissim at it’s finest, in my opinion.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
CCC 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church online at the Vatican.
So it says the CAN be saved not they WILL be saved.
Also it clearly states that if offerred baptism they would receive it. This is written as a description of isolated people in a pre modern world, or the few isolated people today (N Korea for example).
This clearly does not mean all paths lead to heaven.
There are many sources from John Paul II as well that would further describe such as his book “Crossing the threshold of Hope”
In which he writes:
“Buddhism is in large measure an atheistic system” that did not lead to union with God.
And
“In Buddhism we do not free ourselves from evil through the good which comes from God; we liberate ourselves only through detachment from the world, which is bad.”
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jimcintosh
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There is only one place in the gospels where Jesus tells us how we will be judged at the end-times: Mt. 25:31–46. In that parable, Jesus says nothing about being Catholic or going to Mass. Jesus says those are saved who give food to the hungry, who give drink to the thirsty, who welcome the alien among us, who clothe the naked, who care for the sick and who visit the imprisoned.
I certainly am not saying that there is anything wrong with being Catholic or going to Mass. I highly recommend both (and frequently, in the latter case).
But, one has to ask, could one go to Mass daily and yet not meet Jesus’s criteria? And, could one be unchurched and still meet the criteria Jesus lays out?
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