The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

[Jon_S_1]

There is only one place in the gospels where Jesus told us how we would be judged at the end-times: Mt. 25:31–46. In that parable, Jesus says nothing about being Catholic or going to Mass. Jesus says those are saved who give food to the hungry, who give drink to the thirsty, who welcome the alien among us, who clothe the naked, who care for the sick and who visit the sick.

I certainly am not saying that there is anything wrong with being Catholic or going to Mass. I highly recommend both (and frequently, in the latter case).

But, one has to ask, could one go to Mass daily and yet not meet Jesus’s criteria? And, could one be unchurched and still meet the criteria Jesus lays out?

I would certainly say just being Catholic does not mean you are going to heaven.

One can be unchurched and meet Christs Criteria, but if he knowingly rejects God and his truth he cannot be saved.

It comes down to having faith in God and seeking him with your heart. As James 2 says showing faith by our deeds.

You know, there is another part of scripture where Jesus says how to have eternal life explicitly:

Matt 19

16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be [j]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Please not too, that in Matt19, the commandments about loving God snd worshiping God and keeping the sabbath are not listed, yet encompassed in his statement keep the commandments. This was a practicing Jewish audience. There were no atheists or pagans among the audience.

 

[Jon_S_1]

There is only one place in the gospels where Jesus tells us how we will be judged at the end-times: Mt. 25:31–46. In that parable, Jesus says nothing about being Catholic or going to Mass. Jesus says those are saved who give food to the hungry, who give drink to the thirsty, who welcome the alien among us, who clothe the naked, who care for the sick and who visit the imprisoned.

I certainly am not saying that there is anything wrong with being Catholic or going to Mass. I highly recommend both (and frequently, in the latter case).

But, one has to ask, could one go to Mass daily and yet not meet Jesus’s criteria? And, could one be unchurched and still meet the criteria Jesus lays out?

You guys may have just convinced me…The Catholic Church really may just be a humungous waste of time!

So before I decide that maybe all roads do lead to the top of the mountain and I may as well sit and watch all of you struggle to the top, wait for death and take the elevator past you all, because your long struggles are for not according to everyone on here. I sincerely ask, what is the point of going to mass and partaking in the sacraments. Wouldn’t it just be easier to volunteer in the homeless shelter, give to the poor and do “good works”.

This is a serious question!?

 

[McCall1981]

You guys may have just convinced me…The Catholic Church really may just be a humungous waste of time!

So before I decide that maybe all roads do lead to the top of the mountain and I may as well sit and watch all of you struggle to the top, wait for death and take the elevator past you all, because your long struggles are for not according to everyone on here. I sincerely ask, what is the point of going to mass and partaking in the sacraments. Wouldn’t it just be easier to volunteer in the homeless shelter, give to the poor and do “good works”.

This is a serious question!?

If what they are saying is true, there would be no point to Mass, the sacraments, the Church or even Christ Himself. Thats one way to know that what theyre saying is not true

As Pope Francis pointed out, the Church is not an NGO

 

[simple_soul]

You know what saddens me?..

There “seems” to be posters on this thread and in this forum who know dam well that we are all redeemed and all can be saved and yet they come here to just antagonize, badger and berail other posters who have a very basic grasp of this understanding thinking they are “helping” them to understand and see it and what has to be done to allow the salvation of mankind to be completed. I am not sure if it is deliberetly or indeliberate but they seem to be trying to make them upset or angry or depressed all in an “attempt” for them to see. I still do not beleive it is right. It still reminds me of the images and stories I heard of how Hell is. All the devils prod and provoke anger, jealousy and despair and hate…it is like some posters here think it is there duty to do the devils work instead of just reassuring others and telling others that they are beginning to understand what it entails to help with they Salvation of Mankind they cause great fear, confusion and angziety in them not realizing they are playing right into Satans hands so that the Salvation of Mankind will not ever come…it kind of reminds of the movie Ground Hog Day where Bill Murayhs character has to keep reliving the same day untill he gets it right. Mankind seems to be stuck in this Hell Hole untill we get it right.

The way I see it is we are all redeemed. I also see it as we all will be saved. But after we, as in mankind, starts to do what was lacking in Jesus’ Sacrifice that St. Paul tells us about. So untill mankind as a whole starts to do this we will forever be in this hellish state of confusion that has been displayed in this thread and epitomized in the world today.

When I first came to CAF I was following a thread and after a while I just cried out to one of the first members here who had befriended me in a private email. I could not quote exactly what all I said but I know I had cried to him that I could here the early Christian Martyrs Blood crying out to God and us…“has it all been in vain?” It was later in reading a part of Revelation, Rv 6:9 to be exact, that it hit me that it was thier voices I was hearing. What makes it make more sense is was today’s readings. Heb 11:33-12:2. and MT 10:32-38 & 19:27-30.

So come on mankind, when are we going to get wih it. When are going to learn that we need to forsake all our wants for Jesus so that His Kingdom will come? There are a lot of Holy Souls who are waiting for us to do our part for the “better plan of God’s.” Heb 11:40

If what I am beginning to understand and see is true we need to start making up for what was lacking in Jesus’ Sacrifice, we have to willingly accept His Grace and willingly join Him in His sacrifice in order for the Salvation of Mankind to come to fruitation. Untill we do we will be stuck here, just like tires spinning in mud.

Ok I am going to go back to my praying and ponderings to try and understand this more clearly…

 

[McCall1981]

You know what saddens me?..

There “seems” to be posters on this thread and in this forum who know dam well that we are all redeemed and all can be saved and yet they come here to just antagonize, badger and berail other posters who have a very basic grasp of this understanding thinking they are “helping” them to understand and see it and what has to be done to allow the salvation of mankind to be completed. I am not sure if it is deliberetly or indeliberate but they seem to be trying to make them upset or angry or depressed all in an “attempt” for them to see. I still do not beleive it is right. It still reminds me of the images and stories I heard of how Hell is. All the devils prod and provoke anger, jealousy and despair and hate…it is like some posters here think it is there duty to do the devils work instead of just reassuring others and telling others that they are beginning to understand what it entails to help with they Salvation of Mankind they cause great fear, confusion and angziety in them not realizing they are playing right into Satans hands so that the Salvation of Mankind will not ever come…it kind of reminds of the movie Ground Hog Day where Bill Murayhs character has to keep reliving the same day untill he gets it right. Mankind seems to be stuck in this Hell Hole untill we get it right.

The way I see it is we are all redeemed. I also see it as we all will be saved. But after we, as in mankind, starts to do what was lacking in Jesus’ Sacrifice that St. Paul tells us about. So untill mankind as a whole starts to do this we will forever be in this hellish state of confusion that has been displayed in this thread and epitomized in the world today.

When I first came to CAF I was following a thread and after a while I just cried out to one of the first members here who had befriended me in a private email. I could not quote exactly what all I said but I know I had cried to him that I could here the early Christian Martyrs Blood crying out to God and us…“has it all been in vain?” It was later in reading a part of Revelation, Rv 6:9 to be exact, that it hit me that it was thier voices I was hearing. What makes it make more sense is was today’s readings. Heb 11:33-12:2. and MT 10:32-38 & 19:27-30.

So come on mankind, when are we going to get wih it. When are going to learn that we need to forsake all our wants for Jesus so that His Kingdom will come? There are a lot of Holy Souls who are waiting for us to do our part for the “better plan of God’s.” Heb 11:40

If what I am beginning to understand and see is true we need to start making up for what was lacking in Jesus’ Sacrifice, we have to willingly accept His Grace and willingly join Him in His sacrifice in order for the Salvation of Mankind to come to fruitation. Untill we do we will be stuck here, just like tires spinning in mud.

Ok I am going to go back to my praying and ponderings to try and understand this more clearly…

May I ask why Jesus, in the Gospels, refers to those that will not be saved so many times. Seriously, practically half of the parables mention those who wont be saved. Was He lying, misinformed, what?

 

[PJM]

=PTL;10796143]It is amazing to watch this thread. Are you saying everyone will (definite) go to heaven? Or are you saying everyone has an opportunity to go to heaven? Surely all human beings, including Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, are given an opportunity for heaven. That does not mean all will go to heaven. The two sayings are different.

The Holy Father meant everyone has a chance to go to heaven. He did not say everyone will(definitely) go to heaven.

IF I MAY PLEASE INTERJECT

FYI: Folks its a FACT a FACT that “redemption” and “salvation” are ONLY synomous terms within the Protestant communions; We Catholics Do and have ALWAYS held a different understanding of these terms.

Redemption is a “done deal”; a accomplished FACT for all humanity. PERIOD! WHY?

BECAUSE IT DOES NOT; I reapeat; it DOES NOT mean “salvation”.

One of the effects of Original sin was God “LOCKED” the gate to heaven access. Thus LIMBO of the Fathers.

ONE of the effects of Christ Life; Passion; Death AND RESURRECTION was to unlock the gate [singular] and to GIVE PETER alone the Key to that one gate. [Mt. 15:15-19; Mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 28:16-20] [to stay within jusr one book of the NT.

[COLOR=“red”]To be “redeemed” MEANS to have the POSSIBILITY of attainG heaven; which God OBLIGATES Himself to insure by offerig to “ALL” …'Sufficient grace" that they COULD know Him.

This my friends is what Pope Francis was saying and meaning:thumbsup:

For HUNDREDS of year now in recitation of the Stations of the Cross [which non-catholics do not do; or they would know and understand this]; we say:

LEADER: "BY YOUR CROSS AND RESURRECTION

REPLY: YOU HAVE REDEEMED THE WORLD" AMEN

 

[Jon_S_1]

IF I MAY PLEASE INTERJECT

FYI: Folks its a FACT a FACT that “redemption” and “salvation” are ONLY synomous terms within the Protestant communions; We Catholics Do and have ALWAYS held a differnt understanding of these terms.

Redemption is a “done deal”; a accomplished FACT for all humanity. PERIOD! WHY?

BECAUSE IT DOES NOT; I reapleat; it DOES NOT mean “salvation”.

One of the effects of Original sin was God “LOCKED” the gate to heaven access. Thus LIMBO of the Fathers.

ONE of the effects of Christ Live; Passion; Death AND RESURRECTION was to unlock the gate [singular] and to GIVE PETER alone the Key to that one gate. [Mt. 15:15-19; Mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 28:16-20] [to stay within jusr one book of the NT.

To be “redeemed” MEANS to have the POSSIBILITY of attainG heaven; which God OBLIGATES Himself to insure by offerig to “ALL” …'Sufficient grace" that they COULD know Him.

This my friends is what Poep Francis was saying and meaning:thumbsup:

For HUNDREDS of year now in recitation of the Stations of the Cross [which non-catholics do not do; or they would know and understand this]; we say:

LEADER: "BY YOUR CROSS AND RESURRECTION

REPLY: YOU HAVE REDEEMED THE WORLD" AMEN

Thank you thank you thank you!

 

[simple_soul]

May I ask why Jesus, in the Gospels, refers to those that will not be saved so many times. Seriously, practically half of the parables mention those who wont be saved. Was He lying, misinformed, what?

Look, I know the Bible and Jesus’ teachings are not all literal. Some is Mystical some is metiforical some is anological and some of it is literal. I am not educated enought to explain exactly what is what and how one can tell what is what. It is something I am still learning and sinse I have recently found out that the Church does teach about the Salvation of Mankind and since I am just beginning to try and wrap my brain around it I would kindly suggest you seek out a Catholic Biblical Scholar or Theologian or maybe some one who is both and direct this question to them.

 

[McCall1981]

Look, I know the Bible and Jesus’ teachings are not all literal. Some is Mystical some is metiforical some is anological and some of it is literal. I am not educated enought to explain exactly what is what and how one can tell what is what. It is something I am still learning and sinse I have recently found out that the Church does teach about the Salvation of Mankind and since I am just beginning to try and wrap my brain around it I would kindly suggest you seek out a Catholic Biblical Scholar or Theologian or maybe some one who is both and direct this question to them.

The Church has never taught universal salvation, ever.

Again I ask why all the parables and mentions of the unsaved from the mouth of Christ Himself? Why is there 2000 years of Church teaching on the unsaved? Why have so many Saints talked of the unsaved and had visions of Hell populated with the damned? Why do the Marian apparitions almost all speak of the unsaved? Why has every Pope taught that not all are saved? Why do the doctors of the Church speak of the unsaved?

This is not a complex theolgical issue, it is a simple question I propose to you and the others espousing universal salvation.

So again, I ask you or anyone else, why?

 

[McCall1981]

In fact, I’ll go a step further.

I ask anyone in here who believes in univeral salvation to supply one single mention of universal salvation from any Pope, any Church teaching, any Church document, any Biblical source, any Marian vision ever.

Universal salvation is not now, and never has been Church teaching. It is heresy, pure and simple, and I pray that no one is lead astray from the Church because of these discussions.

 

[PTL]

As far as I know, Catholic Church has not changed her doctrines. Our Protestant brothers and sisters believe “once saved, always saved”, but that is not the Catholic teaching. I have never known the Catholic Church teaches that our salvation is guaranteed. If even the baptized Christians are not guaranteed for salvation, how can anyone say the non-Christians are guaranteed for salvation? I hope no one is actually saying that.

 

[McCall1981]

From the Catholic encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

From the article on Apokatastasis, (universal salvation)

"In any case, the doctrine (apokatastasis) was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church."

 

[Jon_S_1]

As far as I know, Catholic Church has not changed her doctrines. Our Protestant brothers and sisters believe “once saved, always saved”, but that is not the Catholic teaching. I have never known the Catholic Church teaches that our salvation is guaranteed. If even the baptized Christians are not guaranteed for salvation, how can anyone say the non-Christians are guaranteed for salvation? I hope no one is actually saying that.

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

From Catholic Answers
catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

Based on what I read here, guarantee is a strong word, but I would argue that the baptized infant that dies has salvation, and the adult who dies after baptism in a state of grace has an assurance of salvation that no one outside the church could possibly have, practically or theoretically.

 

[PTL]

Jon, thank you for your post. All I was trying to say is no one should take our salvation for granted. We constantly work toward heaven with our faith, hope and charity all the way.

Some people seem to think our Pope has come up with a new doctrine. Actually the Pope did not say anything we have not already known.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon, thank you for your post. All I was trying to say is no one should take our salvation for granted. We constantly work toward heaven with our faith, hope and charity all the way.

Some people seem to think our Pope has come up with a new doctrine. Actually the Pope did not say anything we have not known already.

Yes I agree with you fully, I actually misread your post to say, “if we have no guarantee of salvation as baptized Catholics, then everyone outside the church has as much guarantee as we do”

Consider my post an add on to yours rather than a rebuttal!

 

[simple_soul]

The Church has never taught universal salvation, ever.

If the Catholic Church has never taught it then why does she teach about the Salvation of Mankind? What is the point of even mentioning or talking about it if it is not something she teaches us?

 

[PTL]

Yes I agree with you fully, I actually misread your post to say, “if we have no guarantee of salvation as baptized Catholics, then everyone outside the church has as much guarantee as we do”

Consider my post an add on to yours rather than a rebuttal!

Yes, I know, no worry.

I was trying to say no one should take salvation for granted. It amazes me how people could twist the Holy Father’s words and insist what they understand is correct. Worse yet, they spread their mis-conception and cause further confusion.

 

[Jon_S_1]

If the Catholic Church has never taught it then why does she teach about the Salvation of Mankind? What is the point of even mentioning or talking about it if it is not something she teaches us?

As I posted in the other thread. To HOPE for the salvation of mankind, or to PRAY for that, is very different from it literally happening. We do this because we have a heart for God and sharing his truth with all mankind.

Would Hitler and the many others like him be included?

I also want to point to you that all bets are off at death. We’ve had our opportunity and made our choice.

As Pope John Paul II clearly stated:

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).
It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one’s destiny. The Church’s teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth’ (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)” (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

 

[McCall1981]

If the Catholic Church has never taught it then why does she teach about the Salvation of Mankind? What is the point of even mentioning or talking about it if it is not something she teaches us?

The Church does not teach the salvation of mankind in the sense that everyone is actually saved. When Christ died, it won universal redemption for all human beings, meaning that the gap between God and humanity that had been created by original sin was bridged and all people are potentially capable of salvation. Redemption happened corporatly which means it applies to all people without exception, and this is what Pope Francis was talking about. We are all children of God, all can do good, all are equally loved by God thanks to our resemption.

Salvation is individual, we could potentially all be saved, but not all of us actually are saved because some of us reject Gods offer of salvation. Our redemption was Gods loving act that made our salvation possible, and it gave the “power” or choice to us to accept or reject salvation. Think of it this way, we are all redeemed right now, we wont know if we individually are saved until death.

The only knowledge we have for sure of who is saved vs who isn’t is that the Saints are all saved for sure. The Church has also formally condemned universal salvation so we know for sure that not everyone is saved. Beyond that we do not know for sure who is and isnt saved.

What Pope Francis was re-iterating was the Churchs doctrine on redemption, he didnt say anything new. What he said is admittedly confusing if you dont know the difference between redemption and salvation.

When the Church speaks of the salvation of mankind it means it as a potentiality. God offers salvaion to all mankind, and wants us all to be saved, but not all of us ascent.