J
Jon_S_1
Guest
I am absolutely not patronizing you!!!
I believe if you did not have the kindness of God on your heart to see the whole world saved, you would not be asking these questions.
My apologies if it came across wrong!
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I believe if you did not have the kindness of God on your heart to see the whole world saved, you would not be asking these questions.
My apologies if it came across wrong!
S
simple_soul
Guest
So if it is the kindness of God in my heart then the Salvation of Mankind as in all of us is possible in some miraculous way?I am absolutely not patronizing you!!!
I believe if you did not have the kindness of God on your heart to see the whole world saved, you would not be asking these questions.
My apologies if it came across wrong!
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Back and forth between two threads here
It is possible, that is why Jesus redeemed all of mankind. That is why God came to earth to die for us. to allow this possibility.
He does not force us though, and some people choose not to accept the gift from God.
From the other thread:
The only problem is once you die, you can no longer ascent.
Its interesting though, I heard a talk from a Catholic at my parish once, on hell, and he described all mortal sins as being inwardly focused selfish acts. Since this is what separates us from God, the souls in Hell are separated from him, because they choose to be. God could be there yelling with a microphone that the gates are open, but they do not hear because they are not listening. They are frozen in on themselves. It is interesting that Dante described the devil as being frozen in ice for similar reasons.
So it is only our own selfishness that will keep us from God. God is not in the business of holding prisoners or making robots. He gave us free will to choose him . he gave this to the angels too. The angels resided in heaven with God, and yet Satan and the fallen angels chose not to reside there, and chose to go up against God, due to their selfishness. They wanted to be “like God”. It is in the same way that souls are in hell.
S
simple_soul
Guest
Ok now you are saying it is possible…Back and forth between two threads here
It is possible, that is why Jesus redeemed all of mankind. That is why God came to earth to die for us. to allow this possibility.
I will have pause for a bit… need to attention to my vocation… so if I do not respond please know I thank you for your time and will add this possibility in my prayers and just that that God knows what is best…
God Bless you and yours and please remember to pray for me from time to time
K
Kevin12
Guest
I think I mentioned this before, but I think there are some who simply do not want to be saved. Take Christopher Hitchens for example - I am sure that as much as he is currently disliking Hell, he would dislike even more being forced to be surrounded by people he disliked and mocked, revering a God, the idea of whom he hated and spent most of his life trying to tear down. So it is only fair to the man that God allows him to be separated from Him.
Again, quoting Lewis: “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, Thy will be done, and those to whom God says, in the end, Thy will be done.”
However, it may be possible that in the last moment of life, God reaches out to those whom we wouldn’t have thought. But this is speculation.
P
PTL
Guest
Please read the entire post of Jon S. When he said “it is possible” he is saying “with God all things are possible”. That does not mean he agrees with your universal salvation belief. Jon can correct my understanding if it is not what I think.
When we read, please do not take words out of context.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
You are exactly right in what I was trying to say, I thought along with the dozens of other posts it was clear, but perhaps standing alone it was not.Please read the entire post of Jon S. When he said “it is possible” he is saying “with God all things are possible”. That does not mean he agrees with your universal salvation belief. Jon can correct my understanding if it is not what I think.
When we read, please do not take words out of context.
Thanks for pointing it out!
S
simple_soul
Guest
I totally took Jon to be saying something along the lines of with God all things are possible.Please read the entire post of Jon S. When he said “it is possible” he is saying “with God all things are possible”. That does not mean he agrees with your universal salvation belief. Jon can correct my understanding if it is not what I think.
When we read, please do not take words out of context.
It is precisely because of the fact that we know this about God that is making me wonder if the Salvation of Mankind, as in all of us, is possible in some miraculas way.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
This problem of evil, hell, salvation etc. has been a huge topic over the centuries.
I think the ultimate answer as to why we seek our own sense of justice with eternity goes to the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; the serpent told them they would be like God, and not die like God told them they would.
This lie is still alive today.
We can not put our own will above Gods. We cannot put our own knowledge above his.
As God tells Job;
38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains** of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
This goes on until chapter 40 and God says:
“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
This goes on for another chapter too and then Job responds;
2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
I think that should be our response too. God’s plans are unfathomable and who are we to question his justice. Instead let us take the Truth he has graciously given us and live it out.**
S
simple_soul
Guest
Jon I’m not questioning His Justice as in challenging it, I am just trying to understand His Justice. That is the only reason I ask the questions I do.
Have a wonderful night and God Bless you and yours and please keep me in your prayers.
Have a wonderful night and God Bless you and yours and please keep me in your prayers.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Of course! Have a good night!
L
Lucky7
Guest
I’m more interested in knowing** why you are starting **to think this is true. Did you just start thinking this on your own or are you getting this message from others in the Church?
As for the last part of this post, since it was never a teaching of the Church we’re in big trouble if one day Church leaders start teaching us that it is now a teaching of the Church. That would be somewhat of a 180 degree change and that can’t happen.
S
simple_soul
Guest
I’m not sure. Probably a bit of all the above but I beleive mostly because of the seeminglyconflicting teachings of the Church. So I am just trying to reconcile it but I have come to the point again realizing its not my position to do this, it is the Pope and Church Leaders, so will let God and the Church do it and pray I can follow along and understand. Personally I have come to a point that I don’t know if it is something I will be able to fully understand untill God calls me home for good and I am ok with that.
God Bless you and yours
L
Lucky7
Guest
And, with that response simple soul, I completely “get” why you are questioning (although we are in different places in that questioning).
S
simple_soul
Guest
As in I don’t beleive they are conflicting at all it is just me not being able to see and understand how and you beleiving they are just contradicting and therefor wrong?
T
Tigg
Guest
Simple Soul:
From the Eucharistic Prayer of the Church at the consecration of the wine:
Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my Blood,
the Blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.
(Note that it says many, not all.)
“A revision occurred with the new translation of the Holy Mass and replaces “for all” with “for many.” which is a better translation of the original Latin phrase, “pro multis.” Isaiah 53:12 prophesied that the Messiah would take away “the sins of many,” and Christ Himself also said His Blood would be shed for “many” (Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24). Christ died for ****all ****humanity, but each individual must also accept and abide in the grace won by Christ in order to **attain **eternal life. The recovery of the wording, “for many,” affirms that salvation is not completely automatic.”
I hope this helps you sort it all out. You know, SS, that many of the saints did not fully understand their catechism (like St. Bernadette) and were illiterate. And just look at the Cure 'd Ars, St. John Vianney, who almost was unable to become a priest because he didn’t understand his Latin and struggled so with his studies. It was only his deep love of Christ and the desire to be a priest that he was ordained. Perhaps it would behoove you to assent to the faith, rather than try to struggle with understanding it all. God would be greatly pleased with that, I’m certain and I suspect He would send His Spirit upon you to help you gradually understand since Understanding is a gift of the Holy Spirit..
From the Eucharistic Prayer of the Church at the consecration of the wine:
Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my Blood,
the Blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.
(Note that it says many, not all.)
“A revision occurred with the new translation of the Holy Mass and replaces “for all” with “for many.” which is a better translation of the original Latin phrase, “pro multis.” Isaiah 53:12 prophesied that the Messiah would take away “the sins of many,” and Christ Himself also said His Blood would be shed for “many” (Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24). Christ died for ****all ****humanity, but each individual must also accept and abide in the grace won by Christ in order to **attain **eternal life. The recovery of the wording, “for many,” affirms that salvation is not completely automatic.”
I hope this helps you sort it all out. You know, SS, that many of the saints did not fully understand their catechism (like St. Bernadette) and were illiterate. And just look at the Cure 'd Ars, St. John Vianney, who almost was unable to become a priest because he didn’t understand his Latin and struggled so with his studies. It was only his deep love of Christ and the desire to be a priest that he was ordained. Perhaps it would behoove you to assent to the faith, rather than try to struggle with understanding it all. God would be greatly pleased with that, I’m certain and I suspect He would send His Spirit upon you to help you gradually understand since Understanding is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
.
S
simple_soul
Guest
Thank you Tigg but I am not questioning if salvation is completely automatic and I have noted this change in the wording in my mind already. Just still trying to sort it all out. At this point I beleive silence and prayers are what I need more than anything so please keep me in yours and know that you are in mine.
L
Lucky7
Guest
Eh, no…if I am understanding your question (or is that a statement?). And let’s make it absolutely clear: I have never said anything was “wrong” ever. Certainly contradictions raise red flags for me which is why I am questioning them. There should be no contradictions nor changes in doctrine.
I’m not following the first part of your post at all. You just finished stating in the other post that the Church teaching seems to contradict. How can you now say you “don’t believe they are conflicting at all”?
To clarify what I meant by us being in different places in our questioning is that you are questioning for universal salvation. I am not. I know that to be false. Having said that, I am questioning the apparent contradictions the OP originally brought up (which most of us have not been focusing on…understandably so because it’s a hot topic and usually frowned upon).
T
Tigg
Guest
I edited my post too late and you quoted it before the second paragraph. Please read it and know great saints are made simply by trying to love and please God. God Bless You Abundantly!
S
simple_soul
Guest
Because I have faith that there are no “apparent” contradictions. It is just me “thinking” there are or might be.
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