The Lord`s prayer

[ltwin]

If I am trying not to sin, I am doing something, in the same way that trying to live up to the image and likeness of God in which I was created is doing something. In asking for forgiveness of sins, I am in essence saying ‘I will try to do better’. That to me constitutes a doing.

When I ask for forgiveness, I am not in essence saying “I will try to do better.” The essence of my prayer is the following, “Change my heart and renew a right spirit within me because if you don’t work within me I will not be able to overcome this sin.”

This is the part that I do not understand, going back to the car analogy, let’s say that the car is priceless/rare/not able to be replaced or fixed. I say to my dad, I am really sorry, I know that I cannot fix the car but I will shovel your snow for the entire winter as a token. I know full well that shoveling is not going to replace his loss, even if it has been the longest winter ever, but it is a sign of goodwill on my part.

I would think that this is worth something.

It probably would be “worth” something to you. If I destroyed my dad’s really valuable car, I’d say that because I felt so guilty I’d be willing to do anything just to prove to him how truly sorry I was to abuse his trust and property in such a way.

However, I doubt my father would care how eagerly I begged to shovel snow. He would probably just be grateful that I was still alive and not dead in a ditch. The car is not what is priceless to my father. I am what is priceless.

Me volunteering to do something to symbolically make up for my father’s loss may make me feel good, but it doesn’t fix the car. When it comes to my relationship with my father, his love for me outlasts his anger over the car.

In comparison to ‘Thanks for forgiving me you are the best…good luck with your jobs I have to go play tennis’, or maybe without the acknowledgement that work even needs to be done.

Well, you should have sorrow for wrong doing. You should have “godly sorrow” knowing that you did wrong, and you should commit to be a better son, obeying your father, and earning his trust again.

Your father forgives you. He may punish you for being irresponsible. Speaking outside of the analogy, you may have to go through struggles that you could have avoided if you just obeyed God in the first place. But any struggles you go through as a result of you messing things up is not going to bring the car back. You may have to walk everywhere or ride a bike for a while until your dad trusts you enough to let you drive his new car. But nothing you do will bring the car back. It’s wrecked but you are alive, and you father’s love toward you will ultimately be enough to heal the breach.

In other words while it is certainly appropriate to want to “make things right” as much as you can with your father, it is not any work that you do that earns you your father’s forgiveness. You are forgiven because you are your father’s son/daughter.

 

[wmscott]

No. Because our salvation is not dependent on how well we fulfill the command to love others. Yes, we should forgive others, and if we do not, the Word does say that God will not forgive us (Matthew 6:15). But there is also forgiveness for this sin of omission as well. If we repent of all our failures and sin, God will be merciful. Our security is in Christ.

In Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary the following explanation seems to contradict what you are saying.

Ver. 34. Shall the king say to them … on his right hand. By setting forth to all the world the good works of his faithful servants, the Sovereign Judge silences the murmurs of the reprobate, who might otherwise object that they had it not in their power to do good. In the same manner, the conduct of the wise virgins was the condemnation of the foolish ones; the diligence of the faithful servant, of the sloth and drunkenness of the idle one; the zeal of the servants who multiplied the talents entrusted to them, of him that hid his talent in the ground; and the fervour of the observers of the commandments, of the negligence and remissness of those who are ever transgressing them. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxx.) — These works of mercy, says St. Augustine, prevail towards life everlasting, and to the blotting out of former sins; in Psalm xlix.

Ver. 35. For I was hungry, &c. We may take notice, that the wicked at the day of judgment, are said to be condemned for having omitted to perform good works. (Witham) — St. Augustine, in his 33d sermon, brings a beautiful reason why the kingdom of heaven is bestowed solely upon the works of mercy, and eternal damnation for the neglect of them; viz. because, however just a man may be, still he has many failings to atone for, on account of which the kingdom of heaven might be justly denied him: but because he has shewn mercy to his neighbours, he deserves in like manner to have mercy shewn him. But the wicked, not having shewn mercy to their neighbours, nor redeemed their sins by alms-deeds, or the like, are thus delivered up to eternal damnation. (Jansenius, concord.) — Jesus Christ only mentions one species of good works, though others may be equally meritorious; for the means of salvation are not precisely the same for all the saints; some are saved by poverty, others by solitude, and each by that virtue which he shall have practised in the greatest degree of perfection.

Ver. 36. And you visited me. How easy are the things our Saviour requires at our hands! He will not say at the day of judgment: “I was in prison, and you delivered me; I was sick, and you healed me; but only this, you visited me, you came to me.” (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxx.) — This seems particularly addressed to Christians engaged in the cares of the world, whose salvation principally depends on the practice of works of mercy.

Ver. 42. Gave me not. Jesus Christ chargeth them not here with a want of faith, but with a want of good works. They certainly believed, but they attended not to good works; as if a dead faith, i.e. a faith not working by charity, could bring them to heaven. (St. Augustine, de fide & oper. chap. xv. and ad Dulcit. q. 2. ad 4.) — Jesus Christ suffers his members to want, in mercy to them, and to afford others an opportunity of shewing their love for him, and of redeeming their sins by alms-deeds, as was said to the king of the Chaldeans, peccata tua eleemosynis redime. (Daniel iv.)

 

[ltwin]

So can you reconcile this with Matthew 25:34-46

Those who love Jesus will love others. I do not advocate belief only salvation. I believe those who truly are disciples of Christ are being changed into the likeness of Christ. This requires love, and love requires action. But we do not “work” for our salvation. Love in action is the outworking of Christ within us.

 

[wmscott]

Those who love Jesus will love others. I do not advocate belief only salvation. I believe those who truly are disciples of Christ are being changed into the likeness of Christ. This requires love, and love requires action. But we do not “work” for our salvation. Love in action is the outworking of Christ within us.

Post 22?

 

[ltwin]

Post 22?

I do not agree that salvation is based on works. Good works will be evident in those who are being saved, but the works are the effect not the cause of such salvation.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

When I ask for forgiveness, I am not in essence saying “I will try to do better.” The essence of my prayer is the following, “Change my heart and renew a right spirit within me because if you don’t work within me I will not be able to overcome this sin.”

It probably would be “worth” something to you. If I destroyed my dad’s really valuable car, I’d say that because I felt so guilty I’d be willing to do anything just to prove to him how truly sorry I was to abuse his trust and property in such a way.

However, I doubt my father would care how eagerly I begged to shovel snow. He would probably just be grateful that I was still alive and not dead in a ditch. The car is not what is priceless to my father. I am what is priceless.

Me volunteering to do something to symbolically make up for my father’s loss may make me feel good, but it doesn’t fix the car. When it comes to my relationship with my father, his love for me outlasts his anger over the car.

Well, you should have sorrow for wrong doing. You should have “godly sorrow” knowing that you did wrong, and you should commit to be a better son, obeying your father, and earning his trust again.

Your father forgives you. He may punish you for being irresponsible. Speaking outside of the analogy, you may have to go through struggles that you could have avoided if you just obeyed God in the first place. But any struggles you go through as a result of you messing things up is not going to bring the car back. You may have to walk everywhere or ride a bike for a while until your dad trusts you enough to let you drive his new car. But nothing you do will bring the car back. It’s wrecked but you are alive, and you father’s love toward you will ultimately be enough to heal the breach.

In other words while it is certainly appropriate to want to “make things right” as much as you can with your father, it is not any work that you do that earns you your father’s forgiveness. You are forgiven because you are your father’s son/daughter.

Unfortunately I do not know how to break up the quote…

I understand that it is not your willpower that will make you sin no more, it is God’s presence in you. I still maintain that this is active rather than passive. I have to make an effort, try, strive. As you said I need to make a commitment to be a better person.

As for the shoveling thing. I am not saying that my works make up for the loss or pay it back. It is part of my human experience something that I can do in order to show remorse. for example, I will inconvenience myself and take myself out of my comfort in order to make a contribution in human form.

If I understand you correctly, it is the ‘requirement’ for works that is the sticking point.

 

[wmscott]

I do not agree that salvation is based on works. Good works will be evident in those who are being saved, but the works are the effect not the cause of such salvation.

I see… it is just your own opinion.

Ok What about Christ says it, who’s opinion is to be believed? yours or His?

Matthew 16:26-28 For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul? [27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works. [28] Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Again from Haydocks Catholic Bible commentary

Matthew 16

Ver. 28. Till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Some expound this, as fulfilled at his transfiguration, which follows in the next chapter. Others understand it of the glory of Christ, and of his Church, after his resurrection and ascension, when he should be owned for Redeemer of the world: and this state of the Christian Church might be called the kingdom of Christ. (Witham) — This promise of a transitory view of his glory he makes, to prove that he should one day come in all the glory of his Father, to judge each man according to his works: not according to his mercy, or their faith, but according to their works. (St. Augustine, de verb. apos. serm. 35.) — Again, asks St. Augustine, how could our Saviour reward every one according to his works, if there were no free will? (lib. ii. chap. 4. 5. 8, de act. cum Fœlic. Manich.) (Bristow)

 

[ltwin]

I see… it is just your own opinion.

Ok What about Christ says it, who’s opinion is to be believed? yours or His?

Matthew 16:26-28 For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul? [27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works. [28] Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Again from Haydocks Catholic Bible commentary

Yes, we will have to give an account for everything we do. But even if we did everything perfect and nothing evil, none of our good works will save us. What saves us is the blood of Jesus. It’s good that you make use of commentaries to help you understand passages, but when I read the Scriptures, I don’t see what you see. I see Scripture repeatedly emphasizing that it is in Christ alone that we must place our trust–not in what we do, no matter how good we think we are. The truth is, we could never do enough to save ourselves.

I trust in Christ and Christ alone. It is the love of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit that drives me to do good works, so that all I do I boast in Christ. He began a good work in me, and I trust that he will complete it.

 

[ltwin]

If I understand you correctly, it is the ‘requirement’ for works that is the sticking point.

Not quite. I don’t mind saying that Christians will do good works. The Bible talks about the Fruit of the Spirit, and we shall be known by the fruit we bear.

What I can’t subscribe to is the view that doing good works in and of itself somehow sanctifies us in cooperation with Christ’s work on the cross. To me, it just comes too close to saying that Christ’s sacrifice was not enough.

I also am afraid that such a view feeds a mentality that makes Christians feel unsure if they’ve “done enough” to merit grace. The truth is that we can’t merit grace because grace is given to those who don’t deserve it. We can’t have assurance in our works; we can only have full assurance and security in Christ.

I don’t believe that works are unimportant. They are very important, but they flow out of a life that is in Christ. They are evidence of Christ in us, but they do not constitute our holiness or righteousness. Our righteousness comes from our position in Christ.

I don’t want to claim to speak for all Protestants, but I think that many feel the same way when it comes to this issue.

 

[wmscott]

Yes, we will have to give an account for everything we do. But even if we did everything perfect and nothing evil, none of our good works will save us. What saves us is the blood of Jesus. It’s good that you make use of commentaries to help you understand passages, but when I read the Scriptures, I don’t see what you see. I see Scripture repeatedly emphasizing that it is in Christ alone that we must place our trust–not in what we do, no matter how good we think we are. The truth is, we could never do enough to save ourselves.
I trust in Christ and Christ alone. It is the love of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit that drives me to do good works, so that all I do I boast in Christ. He began a good work in me, and I trust that he will complete it.

I guess I need to understand what you are trying to say… are you saying that as long as you have faith and believe in Jesus you are good to go? your first paragraph, highlighted in red I agree with you. It is when you seem to ignore the Bible commentaries, the ECFs, and the explinations they bring to explain the very scriptures you see. They see it to greater depth than you or I and had to because there was no bible as you know it today in thier time.

 

[Kliska]

Forgiving, thinking, trusting, loving, etc… these things are not “works.” They are actions, not works, there is a difference. No working on the Sabbath; but you could love, trust, think, forgive, etc…

 

[ltwin]

are you saying that as long as you have faith and believe in Jesus you are good to go?

No. As I said in reply to Dulcinea2721, paraphrasing Hebrews 10, “willfully committing the same sins over and over again makes a mockery out of Christ’s death on the Cross and the grace of God and grieves the Holy Spirit. If one persists in an unrepentant state long enough, eventually their heart hardens until they are turned over completely to their sins and their depraved mind.”

Likewise, Jesus makes it clear in Matthew 7:17-18 that “every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” Those who have been made spiritually alive will bear good fruit, while those who are spiritually dead will bear bad fruit.

Jesus told plainly that not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter heaven. It is only those who do the will of the Father. But this warning cuts both ways. Jesus said, “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:21-23)

Doing good works is not the same thing as doing the will of the Father. Doing good works is not the same thing as knowing Christ.

your first paragraph, highlighted in red I agree with you. It is when you seem to ignore the Bible commentaries, the ECFs, and the explinations they bring to explain the very scriptures you see. They see it to greater depth than you or I and had to because there was no bible as you know it today in thier time.

I don’t ignore them. They are just secondary to the Scriptures themselves.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I do not agree that salvation is based on works. Good works will be evident in those who are being saved, but the works are the effect not the cause of such salvation.

How would you explain:
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Forgiving, thinking, trusting, loving, etc… these things are not “works.” They are actions, not works, there is a difference. No working on the Sabbath; but you could love, trust, think, forgive, etc…

I understand that works refers to an action as in the earlier example of shoveling in penance for the car. The same way that a juvenile offender will get community service hours for theft.

There are people who believe that ALL active participation meaning any “doing” is not necessary. Having faith in Jesus in the only thing that matters.

What do you consider works?..let’s go beyond the obvious community service and soup kitchen.

And do you think that works are necessary?

 

[Darryl_B]

There are many Protestant fundamentalists who never say the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer at all.

Those who have a strong pietistic background believe that every word of every prayer must be made up on the spot to be ‘sincere, heard by God’. Written prayers even from Our Lord are evil and ‘insincere’ because they are prewriiten.

When I was raised in different fundamental denominations I never heard the Lord’s Prayer. I was taught that is was only something of an example only to model your own extempore prayers on and nothing else.

I can vouch for that. At the Evangelical Church I went to for 18 years I don’t have any recollection of saying the Lord’s prayer. I think it also has to do with the tendency to view the teachings of Jesus as ‘milk’ and the teachings of Paul as ‘meat’. Since we were all fairly mature, we would focus on the ‘meat’.

 

[Darryl_B]

The salvation by faith, salvation by faith and works difference is slightly blurry at times because both appear to be essentially saying the same thing ie salvation by faith and works.

I believe the difference only really exists as a consequence of the doctrine of purgatory, which by rejecting, there was then the necessity to have the “faith alone”.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Pardon my complete and utter confusion.

It seems to me that non-Catholics generally believe that while it is good and pleasing to God to do good thing. They are not necessary for salvation. One is saved through God’s grace alone for the asking. Somewhat like saying “Son, you are my flesh and blood, you will receive your inheritance whatever path you choose”

In contrast, Catholics believe that only God’s grace can save us and that God’s grace is bestowed upon us by virtue of our family bond and our earthly contribution. Somewhat like saying, " Son, you are my flesh and blood, you will receive your inheritance provided you try to follow my example".

As a parent, knowing that a mentally challenged child (human sinners) could not possibly produce 100% in astrophysics (Jesus), but you need to strive even if you do not achieve.

That is what I am getting so far. This brings me back to the original question…to “forgive those who trespass against us”?? Are protestants required to do this or is it merely a suggestion or guideline.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

The salvation by faith, salvation by faith and works difference is slightly blurry at times because both appear to be essentially saying the same thing ie salvation by faith and works.

I believe the difference only really exists as a consequence of the doctrine of purgatory, which by rejecting, there was then the necessity to have the “faith alone”.

That is why purgatory makes so much sense to me.

I cannot understand the thought the there are no repercussions to our earthly actions.

Thank you for responding

 

[Dulcinea2721]

I can vouch for that. At the Evangelical Church I went to for 18 years I don’t have any recollection of saying the Lord’s prayer. I think it also has to do with the tendency to view the teachings of Jesus as ‘milk’ and the teachings of Paul as ‘meat’. Since we were all fairly mature, we would focus on the ‘meat’.

Thank you, it makes sense to me that they would not say it. I never knew that before. I assumed every Christian said it.

 

[Kliska]

I understand that works refers to an action as in the earlier example of shoveling in penance for the car. The same way that a juvenile offender will get community service hours for theft.

There are people who believe that ALL active participation meaning any “doing” is not necessary. Having faith in Jesus in the only thing that matters.

What do you consider works?..let’s go beyond the obvious community service and soup kitchen.

And do you think that works are necessary?

There’s a difference between punishment and things God has us do for sins we have done wrong, and the actions that spring from the Holy Spirit in our lives. All of us believe in “action” saving us; faith, in the Greek, is an active word. Trusting is an action word; it is a verb. Loving is an action word, it is a verb. These things, however, are not part of a prescribed physical act, such as what is required under the law. Hence, Jesus gives us a new way of looking that the commandments through the lens of Spirit and love, instead of letter.

Another aspect of this, is that I would never take credit for any actual work or doing that would be considered good by God, it would be to the credit of the Holy Spirit within. Only God is good and can truly do good. Our job is to yield. So, the Spirit works through us and guides us and our job is to hope, trust, love, etc… So we do action without working our way to Heaven.

As I’ve studied a wide variety of descriptions of the idea of faith or faith working in love, the different sides are actually much more in accord than is commonly believed by any side.