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Mannyfit75
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You also do this by attacking the Catholic Church.
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Proletarian
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Because the scriptures in and of themselves are useless. They gain authority ONLY through authoritative interpretation.
If it were not for the Magisterium there would be no Bible. The Magisterium is the ultimate authority because without it no Christian could accept scripture as authoritative.
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Mannyfit75
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Well said. The Catholic Church approved the 27 NT text. As far as I know the Jews themselves did not close their canon of Scripture. However, scholars thought that the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD may have close it. Though there is some debate whether or not this council actually took place. If the Council did took place, the Christian Church then did not find it binding. Since the Council of Jamnia also reject Jesus as the “Promised Messiah”
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Nella
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that is not true by definition contained in the Scriptures themselves. You may be brainwashed to believe this but you aren’t going to be able to brainwash me into it.
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Nella
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You waffle back and forth to attempt to ram home a point which is historically false. The Early Church is not the Catholic church. The Catholic church did not by definition exist during the times of the early church (neither did the Orthodox church). Peter who you claim as your first bishop was the bishop of Jerusalem by far the most time. He was martyred in Rome. Intermixing the early church with the Cathoic church in discussion is creative but doesn’t change history about either.
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Proletarian
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Contarini
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By whose definition? Perhaps you need to be better catechized as an Anglican.
St. Peter was never the bishop of Jerusalem. That was St. James. St. Peter can be regarded as the first bishop of Antioch.
Edwin
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richwmiller
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OK I will bite. Where and what are these definitions in the Scriptures themselves
There you go with ad hominem attacks.
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Mannyfit75
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Well that is your opinion you just denied the facts. Have you by any chance read any writings of the Early Church? The writings show that following:
- They have bishops like the Catholic Church.
- They believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
- They believe that Mary was a remain a Virgin all her life.
8 Flee from schism as the source of mischief. You should all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ did the Father. Follow, too, the presbytery as you would the apostles; and respect the deacons as you would God’s law. Nobody must do anything that has to do with the Church without the bishop’s approval. You should regard that Eucharist as valid which is celebrated either by the bishop or by someone he authorizes. Where the 2 bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the* Catholic Church**. Without the bishop’s supervision, no baptisms or love feasts are permitted. On the other hand, whatever he approves pleases God as well. In that way everything you do will be on the safe side and valid. 9 It is well for us to come to our senses at last, while we still have a chance to repent and turn to God. It is a fine thing to acknowledge God and the bishop. He who pays the bishop honor has been honored by God. But he who acts without the bishop’s knowledge is in the devil’s service.*
This was the first written document where a Bishop of Antioch write the word Catholic Church was use to describe a universal Church.
The Catholic Church belief that Peter as first Pope has been a part of our Christian traditions. I’ll continue in the next thread.
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Nella
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Saying they had bishops like the Catholic church is like saying Broyhill builds chairs like my dad does in his 12x8 workshop.
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Nella
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I don’t believe you are correct here.
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Mannyfit75
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“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles,** Peter and Paul**; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).
And he says to him again after the resurrection, **‘Feed my sheep.’ **It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).
"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour’s Passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour…Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.” **Pope Victor & Easter (c. A.D. 195). **
Source: scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html#tradition_I
And he says to him again after the resurrection, **‘Feed my sheep.’ **It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).
"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour’s Passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour…Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.” **Pope Victor & Easter (c. A.D. 195). **
Source: scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html#tradition_I
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Mannyfit75
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The Orthodox Church acknowledges that the Bishop of Jerusalem is St. James, and so does the Catholic Church acknowledges. The mere fact that you don’t believe in it is because you are Protestant. IF the claim of the Catholic Church are true, you are then deceived.
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Mannyfit75
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You just like to ignore historical facts. It is very apparent in your Anti-Catholic replies.
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Nella
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Well then sir, prove to me that the Roman Catholic church is the same church as the early church.
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Proletarian
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Why should we have to prove anything? You’re the one who made the initial claim that the early Church was not the Catholic Church; the onus is upon you.
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murphdog261
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I love that quote!
It really helps when you are trying to speak to someone who thinks that the Catholic Church started under someone like Constantine 
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Mannyfit75
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Read William Jurgen’s Book Faith of Our Early Fathers.
amazon.com/Faith-Early-Fathers-Three-Set/dp/0814610250/ref=sr_1_1/105-3543178-0093249?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187625778&sr=8-1
Or you can go to newadvent.org which has writings of the ECF.
newadvent.org/fathers/
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Mannyfit75
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Here is a sample.
St. Ignatius of Antioch 110 AD:
St. Ignatius of Antioch 110 AD:
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nonsumd
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Nella, are you the same person as you were when you were born?
Yes and no.
Just because someone can come along look at your baby picture and say, “This does not look like you at all. The person in the picture has a tiny body. You have a much larger body. This cannot be you,” does not mean that you and the person in the baby picture are not the same person.
If the Catholic Church cannot prove with scientific certainty (which seems to be what you are asking for) that it is the same as the early church, so much less can churches (er… eccclesial communities) founded since the 16th c. argue that they have any real (as opposed to an imagined) connection with the early church.
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