The Magisterium equal to Scripture in authority???

[Nella]

Why should we have to prove anything? You’re the one who made the initial claim that the early Church was not the Catholic Church; the onus is upon you.

Well, I’m saying that it is not because it is not. I have never been given any proof here by anyone that it is. You have only ever merely said that it is. Not good enough.

 

[Nella]

I love that quote! It really helps when you are trying to speak to someone who thinks that the Catholic Church started under someone like Constantine

I believe that this is true in part. yes, Nella actually said this!! Really, I believe that where Jesus is, all true Christianity is.

 

[nonsumd]

I believe that this is true in part. yes, Nella actually said this!! Really, I believe that where Jesus is, all true Christianity is.

According to the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus can be found under a rock, so I guess true Christianity is there too.

If there had been no Catholic Church (a coherent network extending all over the empire and beyond) in existence, would it not have been unlikely that Constantine would chose to patronize Christianity in the first place?

In their writings, the immediate successors of the Apostles articulate doctrines that are clearly Catholic (e.g. the Real Presence in the Eucharist). Do you think that people who learned the faith directly from those who learned it directly from Jesus would have suddenly invented a religion that was in contradiction to Jesus’ teaching?

What do you mean when you say the Catholic Church is not the same church as the early church? Can you indicate a point in time when the Catholic Church “was founded” as anyone can point to the founding of the Lutheran, Reformed, or other Protestant churches?

For the record, I believe Jesus is present in Protestant churches (which is not to say that Jesus did not institute the Catholic Church as the ordinary visible means by which He pours his grace on the world).

I also believe that we can see God’s grace working in non-Christian religions (which is*** not*** the same thing as saying all religions are equally true).

 

[Contarini]

I don’t believe you are correct here.

Ask your priest.

Edwin

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, I’m saying that it is not because it is not. I have never been given any proof here by anyone that it is. You have only ever merely said that it is. Not good enough.

If you went to the link that contain Early Church Fathers writings you would see that they were indeed Catholic Church.

For one thing before the Reformation Western Europe were Catholics . You might wonder where did Catholicism have its origins. If you go further back let’s say 1054 the Christian Church split into Two Christian Churches, Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church. The Western Church had it authority in Rome, while the Eastern Orthodox Church had its authority in Constantinople.

Before the Schism, there was only One Church. As St. Ignatius said in his letters, “Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Without the bishop’s supervision, no baptisms or love feasts are permitted.” (Letters to the Smyrnaean 110 AD).

So clearly by the late 1st Century the Church of Christ was known as Catholic Church. There were bishops and Popes then. You cannot deny the fact that all of Christianity had its origins in the Catholic Church.

It is apparent, you just want to ignore the facts. Even some Protestant scholars and historians acknowledges that the Catholic Church had a key role in Christianity long before there was a Schism or a Reformation.

 

[holy_wood]

We Catholics are older than you so were right based on seniority.

 

[Pax]

Well, I’m saying that it is not because it is not. I have never been given any proof here by anyone that it is. You have only ever merely said that it is. Not good enough.

Would a historical list of Popes starting with Peter until the present day help?

Would a list of bishops from all of the early important Churches through today help?

Such data is available. Likewise, there is plenty of secular history that makes it clear that the early Christian Church is the Catholic Church. There simply was no other Church and there are simply no historical proofs or evidence whatsoever that there was another Christian faith. Every single heresy was fought and ultimately overcome by the Catholic Church and the Canon of Scripture was settled by Catholic Church Councils.

What other proof do you really need. The evidence is simply everywhere. Even atheist and agnostic secular scholars will admit that the early Christian Church was the Catholic Church. I had a history professor in college in 1967 that always began his course in Western Civilization by explaining that the references to “the church” in his class and the text books was the Catholic Church. He further explained that he did not mean to offend anyone by this, but simply stated it up front to clear the air of religious discussions. This professor was not a religious man and had no axe to grind. The college was a California State Campus. There was nothing Catholic about the college and there was no bias.

This particular truth and the truth about the establishment of the Canon of Scripture is obvious. To provide you with the elements of proof that you seem to require would require that you read books. I would highly recommend this so as to satisfy yourself. Posts on a forum will not provide you with that kind of highly detailed data because of the constraints of time and place.

 

[Bishopite]

Actually I do have an idea, I however made a stupid mistake and must stand corrected. Thanks for the correction. I was thinking about Constantine in relation to the Arian heresy when I wrote this. That is what I get for trying to dash off a long answer without thinking about it.

Hey, don’t sweat it. I was a bit harsh on you too and I apologize for my lack of charity.

You are exactly right. I don’t rely on or feel a need for authority or references to authority. I believe that as long as one holds to the two great commandments, then they will encounter the Kingdom. I don’t believe (nor does the Church) that salvation is out of reach for non-christians. God will sort it out in the end.

Ultimately God is the final arbiter of the soul and that God is a just God who doesn’t send a person to a place they don’t choose to go. God doesn’t send people to hell, His justice allows them to freely choose to be away from Him, therefore He gives them what they ultimately want, even if it breaks His heart in doing so.