The Mark of the Beast

[Ben_Masada]

Yes the Jews spent 70 years of exile in Babylon, but read again my post. It specifically states that the 490 year countdown STARTS at the time when the Decree is given to go and rebuild the city of Jerusalem. Or do you just choose to ignore this? The 70 weeks is not the same as the 70 years of captivity as it seems you are trying to have us believe.

 

[Ed_Rand]

That’s when the sacrifices ceased; and the reason was because the Romans destroyed our Temple.

Are you hoping that the Temple may one day be rebuilt?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Half true,Jesus was born a Jew but died a Christian.

 

[Ben_Masada]

**For heaven’s sake, they were six million and not six thousands the Jews who died. Are you trying to play a joke on us? I am not even sure if there were more than six million Jews in Europe. How many were left to be saved by the Church? It’s even embarrassing to remind that the Church saved Jews from the Holocaust. What are you trying to cover, the shame of the sense of guilty?

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Like I said Ben, what is your excuse that in Isaiah which he clearly states in these words “AND HE WILL BE BORN OF A VIRGIN”. Can you explain this one?

**Yes, I can. It’s not literal. According to Amos 5:2, the virgin is Israel. And back to Isaiah 7:14, if you read also verse 15, next verse 22 and Isaiah 8:8, the Prophet mentions the name of the child who was born of that virgin by name as Judah, so that you don’t have to assume that he was Jesus.

Besides, there are in the Hebrew language two names for the word virgin. One is “Almah” which means young woman at marriageable age, and “Betulah” which means a literal virgin. The word in Isaiah 7:14, which the NT uses for Jesus’ mother, is “Almah” young woman, and not “Betulah” a real virgin. Therefore, it’s high time to wake up and give a chance to the Truth.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

I would generally agree with you even though I don’t know why you chose those particual dates.

**The one like the son of man is a reference to “he” who received dominion in verse 14, and the same “Holy ones of the Most Hight” of verse 18, 21,22. And the holy ones of the Most High is a reference to Israel, the Jewish People.

Ben: **

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

**Yes, I can. It’s not literal. According to Amos 5:2, the virgin is Israel. And back to Isaiah 7:14, if you read also verse 15, next verse 22 and Isaiah 8:8, the Prophet mentions the name of the child who was born of that virgin by name as Judah, so that you don’t have to assume that he was Jesus.

Besides, there are in the Hebrew language two names for the word virgin. One is “Almah” which means young woman at marriageable age, and “Betulah” which means a literal virgin. The word in Isaiah 7:14, which the NT uses for Jesus’ mother, is “Almah” young woman, and not “Betulah” a real virgin. Therefore, it’s high time to wake up and give a chance to the Truth.

Ben: **

The Virgin stated is NOT Israel. How can you even say this? It is of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is also foretold in Genesis where God says "I will put enmity between you (satan) and the woman (Mary). He will bruise your head (Christ) and you will bruise His heel (Satan).

 

[pismopal]

Nino;5067871:

Christianity started with Paul 30 years after Jesus had been gone. If the dead could hear what you have just said above, Jesus would turn in the grave to hear that he had anything to do with Christianity.

Jesus is not in a grave…that is what this is all about friend.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Ben Masada;5072742:

Nino;5067871:

Christianity started with Paul 30 years after Jesus had been gone. If the dead could hear what you have just said above, Jesus would turn in the grave to hear that he had anything to do with Christianity.

Jesus is not in a grave…that is what this is all about friend.

Good answer:thumbsup:

 

[ryanoneil]

ryanoneil;5072065:

**The prophecy starts with the destruction of the Temple in 587 BCE and not with the decree of Cyrus. It’s all explained in my thread about this prophecy of Daniel. I have posted it already in two parts. **

There is nothing in part two.

**That’s the time the books of Daniel and Maccabees were finished being written by the same author. **

And where does (Dan 9:24-27) mention the writing of two books and what does that have to do with the your time frame?

An individual like Aaron, called Uriah, the High Priest. It’s all expalined in my thread.

In post # 2?

**The one like the son of man is a reference to “he” who received dominion in verse 14, and the same “Holy ones of the Most Hight” of verse 18, 21,22. And the holy ones of the Most High is a reference to Israel, the Jewish People.

Ben: **

And where was the Ancient one when the son of man presented himself?

 

[matahari]

There is a Secular World Order out there whose agenda is to do away with ALL belief in God and to set up the Almighty State in His place. They are probably very happy to see believers doing the work for them - arguing and tearing each other to shreds. Jews, Muslims and Christians are Children of Abraham , whether you like it or not ! We ought not to be fighting and hating each other. In Christ there is no male or female, no old or young, no Muslim or Jew. We are called to be a New Creation.

 

[Ben_Masada]

There is a Secular World Order out there whose agenda is to do away with ALL belief in God and to set up the Almighty State in His place. They are probably very happy to see believers doing the work for them - arguing and tearing each other to shreds. Jews, Muslims and Christians are Children of Abraham , whether you like it or not ! We ought not to be fighting and hating each other. In Christ there is no male or female, no old or young, no Muslim or Jew. We are called to be a New Creation.

**Well my dear friend, your point is honorable and could be well taken. But if there is someone to blame here, they are definitely NOT the Jews. We had been here for thousands of years when Christians and Muslims decided to add to what was written, by contradicting Deuteronomy 4:2. Therefore, devide the guilt between you two and decide to fit in.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5073006:

There is nothing in part two.

Yes, there is. Right after part one as a follow up. Try again.

And where does (Dan 9:24-27) mention the writing of two books and what does that have to do with the your time frame?

That’s within part two. The Maccabees come in the last week.

And where was the Ancient one when the son of man presented himself?

**The Antient One is God Himself; and “where” is an indication of place. God is not limited by place, as God does not occupy a place in space.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5072742:

Nino;5067871:

Christianity started with Paul 30 years after Jesus had been gone. If the dead could hear what you have just said above, Jesus would turn in the grave to hear that he had anything to do with Christianity.

Jesus is not in a grave…that is what this is all about friend.

**Jesus died, didn’t he? It would be a contradiction in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle, for someone to return from death.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

The Virgin stated is NOT Israel. How can you even say this? It is of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is also foretold in Genesis where God says "I will put enmity between you (satan) and the woman (Mary). He will bruise your head (Christ) and you will bruise His heel (Satan).

**You have all the right in the world to assume whatever you want, but there is nothing on an individual basis about Jesus and Mary in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle. Here’s an exegesis of Genesis 3:15. There will be always enmity between the other nations and Israel. And between the Gentiles and the Jews. By striking at the head of the serpent, and at the heel of Israel, it means the special position of Israel in God’s favors, always at the top.

Ben: **

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes, there is. Right after part one as a follow up. Try again.

Honestly Ben, when I clicked on part two it said you deleted it. You are going to have to find it for me (please).

If you open up a window to part two, you can right click on the web address at the top of the page (*forums.catholic-questions.org/etc. . .etc. . .etc. . . *)

Copy and paste that link on this thread.

Thank you,
Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

**Yes, I can. It’s not literal. According to Amos 5:2, the virgin is Israel. And back to Isaiah 7:14, if you read also verse 15, next verse 22 and Isaiah 8:8, the Prophet mentions the name of the child who was born of that virgin by name as Judah, so that you don’t have to assume that he was Jesus.

Besides, there are in the Hebrew language two names for the word virgin. One is “Almah” which means young woman at marriageable age, and “Betulah” which means a literal virgin. The word in Isaiah 7:14, which the NT uses for Jesus’ mother, is “Almah” young woman, and not “Betulah” a real virgin. Therefore, it’s high time to wake up and give a chance to the Truth.

Ben: **

From a christian perspective the prophetess is the virgin and the child is Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

Then I went to the prophetess and she conceived and bore a son. The LORD said to me: Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz, for before the child knows how to call his father or mother by name, the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be carried off by the king of Assyria. (Isa 8:3-4)

Sure enough, Jerusalem was spared from its enemies, but the story continued. In fewer than seventy years, Ephraem (the 10 northern tribes who rejected the reign of David’s heir) was utterly destroyed. In other words, not every descendant of Abraham benefited from that salvation.

By the time of Christ, this passage was understood to be a Messianic prophecy made evident by the “virgin” word change (when translated in the Greek Septuagint). Someday another son would come who would signal the availability of a more universal salvation for Israel.

When Matthew (1:23) uses this prophecy he points to more than just the virgin birth. He includes the entire series of events, including the salvation of a faithfull remnant and the destruction of the unbelieving majority that occurred about 70 years after the actual birth of the child.

This “fulfillment of a prophecy becoming a prophecy of a future event” pertains to Daniel and the “day of the Lord” prophets also.

 

[Ben_Masada]

From a christian perspective the prophetess is the virgin and the child is Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

That’s not literal. That going to the prophetess who conceived and bore a son happened in a vision of Isaiah. The name of the child was given as a code to mean “in a very short time and certain to happen.” The meaning of the metaphor pointed to what was about to happen between Israel and Judah.

Sure enough, Jerusalem was spared from its enemies, but the story continued. In fewer than seventy years, Ephraem (the 10 northern tribes who rejected the reign of David’s heir) was utterly destroyed. In other words, not every descendant of Abraham benefited from that salvation.

That salvation was of Judah only as a result of its redemption effected by Israel. Read Isaiah 53:12. “Many” is a reference to those of Judah. Therefore, as you say, "not every descendant of Abraham benefited from that salvation.

By the time of Christ, this passage was understood to be a Messianic prophecy made evident by the “virgin” word change (when translated in the Greek Septuagint). Someday another son would come who would signal the availability of a more universal salvation for Israel.

**That passage was always understood to be a Messianic prophecy, but not with reference to Jesus. The other son was Judah born of the virgin, that became the pivot of the universal salvation promised by God to Noah. That’s why, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37, as long as Israel exists, Mankind is safe of universal catastrophe. **

When Matthew (1:23) uses this prophecy he points to more than just the virgin birth. He includes the entire series of events, including the salvation of a faithfull remnant and the destruction of the unbelieving majority that occurred about 70 years after the actual birth of the child.

**As I can see, you are walking on the right track. I think that the difference between us is only about names. Where you have Jesus, I have Israel.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Honestly Ben, when I clicked on part two it said you deleted it. You are going to have to find it for me (please).

If you open up a window to part two, you can right click on the web address at the top of the page (forums.catholic-questions.org/etc. . .etc. . .etc. . . )

Copy and paste that link on this thread.

Thank you,

Ryan

**I am sorry. You do not have to click Part Two. Click Part One. Part Two is right after Part One. I decided to do that way to make it easier for people to read the whole thing whithout having to go back looking for Part Two.

Ben: **

 

[matahari]

Psalm 21: 15-19 I am like water poured out; all my bones are racked. My heart has become like wax melting away within my bosom. My throat is dried up like baked clay, my tongue cleaves to my jaws; to the dust of death you have brought me down. Indeed,many dogs surround me, a pack of evildoers closes in upon me; they have pierced my hands and my feet; I can count all my bones. They look on and gloat over me; They divide my garments among them, and for my vesture they cast lots. " This is a description of a man suffering the agony of crucifixion One other Messianic Prophecy from Zacharias 13:6… "And they shall say to him: What are these wounds in the midst of thy hands? And he shall say: With these I was wounded in the house of them that loved me…Strike the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered; The central message of Christianity is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Old Testament is full of prophecies that find exclusive fulfillment in Him !