The Mark of the Beast

[ryanoneil]

That’s not literal. That going to the prophetess who conceived and bore a son happened in a vision of Isaiah. The name of the child was given as a code to mean “in a very short time and certain to happen.” The meaning of the metaphor pointed to what was about to happen between Israel and Judah.

That salvation was of Judah only as a result of its redemption effected by Israel. Read Isaiah 53:12. “Many” is a reference to those of Judah. Therefore, as you say, "not every descendant of Abraham benefited from that salvation.

**That passage was always understood to be a Messianic prophecy, but not with reference to Jesus. The other son was Judah born of the virgin, that became the pivot of the universal salvation promised by God to Noah. That’s why, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37, as long as Israel exists, Mankind is safe of universal catastrophe. **

**As I can see, you are walking on the right track. I think that the difference between us is only about names. Where you have Jesus, I have Israel.

Ben: **

I don’t know enough about Judaism to fully understand our differences, but that seems about right. From the Christian perspective Jesus’ birth, life, death, and resurrection, embodied the whole of Israel’s path. So, we agree Isaiah is speaking about God’s servant Israel, which prefigures and points to Jesus (further fulfillment). We also believe that the New Covenant comes with Jesus in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Because we believe that Jesus is David’s heir, we also believe that his kingdom extends over all nations. And all the world will be made children of Abraham- blessed and beloved sons and daughters of God. Not that Israel is demoted from it’s favored-nation status so much as the Gentiles are promoted to share in Israel’s blessings.

Again the LORD’S messenger called to Abraham from heaven and said: "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly and make your descendants as countless as the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore; your descendants shall take possession of the gates of their enemies, and in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing–all this because you obeyed my command.’’ (Gen 22:16-18)

It is too little, he says, for you to be my servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and restore the survivors of Israel; I will make you a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth. (Isa 49:6)

Not “everyone” will benefit from that salvation of course, but IF the difference between us is only about names, does this make sense to you?

 

[ryanoneil]

**I am sorry. You do not have to click Part Two. Click Part One. Part Two is right after Part One. I decided to do that way to make it easier for people to read the whole thing whithout having to go back looking for Part Two.

Ben: **

OK

 

[ryanoneil]

**The Antient One is God Himself; and “where” is an indication of place. God is not limited by place, as God does not occupy a place in space.

Ben: **

I agree the Ancient One is God and realize He is not limited. The indication of place is in (Dan 7:13).

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him

When the Lord comes on a cloud He IS somewhere, (Exod 34:5, Lev 16:2, 1 King 8:10-11, Isaiah 19:1) but in this case here it is One like a son of man coming on the clouds. Not God.

Where is he going and what are the clouds of heaven he is coming on?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I agree the Ancient One is God and realize He is not limited. The indication of place is in (Dan 7:13).

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him

When the Lord comes on a cloud He IS somewhere, (Exod 34:5, Lev 16:2, 1 King 8:10-11, Isaiah 19:1) but in this case here it is One like a son of man coming on the clouds. Not God.

Where is he going and what are the clouds of heaven he is coming on?

**These references to the Lord, especially the one in Isaiah 19:1, “riding on a swift cloud on His way to Egypt,” is related to the people being taken to exile and the Lord leaving with them. It is of course a prophecy for the exile, as we know from Isaiah 1:1 and 2:1 that the whole book of Isaiah is a vision about Judah and Jerusalem.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

I don’t know enough about Judaism to fully understand our differences, but that seems about right. From the Christian perspective Jesus’ birth, life, death, and resurrection, embodied the whole of Israel’s path.

So, we agree Isaiah is speaking about God’s servant Israel, which prefigures and points to Jesus (further fulfillment). We also believe that the New Covenant comes with Jesus in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Psalm 21: 15-19 I am like water poured out; all my bones are racked. My heart has become like wax melting away within my bosom. My throat is dried up like baked clay, my tongue cleaves to my jaws; to the dust of death you have brought me down. Indeed,many dogs surround me, a pack of evildoers closes in upon me; they have pierced my hands and my feet; I can count all my bones. They look on and gloat over me; They divide my garments among them, and for my vesture they cast lots. " This is a description of a man suffering the agony of crucifixion One other Messianic Prophecy from Zacharias 13:6… "And they shall say to him: What are these wounds in the midst of thy hands? And he shall say: With these I was wounded in the house of them that loved me…Strike the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered; The central message of Christianity is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Old Testament is full of prophecies that find exclusive fulfillment in Him !

**I am sorry, but there is not a single prophecy in the Tanach
that points individually to Jesus. I would be happy to read at least one if you could mention it to me.

**

 

[ryanoneil]

**These references to the Lord, especially the one in Isaiah 19:1, “riding on a swift cloud on His way to Egypt,” is related to the people being taken to exile and the Lord leaving with them. It is of course a prophecy for the exile, as we know from Isaiah 1:1 and 2:1 that the whole book of Isaiah is a vision about Judah and Jerusalem.

Ben: **

I always thought the Egyptian idols trembled and their hearts melted because the cloud the Lord came on was the Assyrian army (Isa 20:1-6).

If God was coming with the the son on the cloud (Dan 7:13), what was the physical manifestation of the son’s reaching, and being presented before God?

 

[ryanoneil]

No, don’t say, “we agree,” because I don’t. The issue is about God’s Servant Israel, period. “Which points to Jesus” is your assumption. You believe that the New Covenant comes with Jesus in Jeremiah, not I. The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one. It doesn’t have anything to do with the Christian NT. In fact, Jeremiah couldn’t be more clear.

I apologize for letting the first and second half of the sentence run together. I meant to say we agree Isaiah is speaking about God’s servant Israel. The second half of the sentence should have said: we Christians believe the initial fulfillment of Isaiah points to another fulfillment in Jesus.

Christians believe that the covenant was made with the House of Israel and Judah as one.

That could be true but according to Zechariah 8:23.

Christains believe the gentiles are also include in the New Covenant (Jer 31:31) because of the Covenant with Abraham and David. The Davidic Kingdom is international and more than the twelve tribes.

Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth. (Psalm 2:8)

What I don’t understand is: why God would make gentiles beloved sons and daughters but not include them in The New Covenant.

That Divine promise to make Abraham’s descendants as countless as the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore, is not in terms of numbers but of prohibition to be counted. That’s why when David decided to make a sensus of the Israelites, the country was struck by a plague. (II Sam. 24:1,10)

I was focussing more on the “all the nations of the earth shall find blessing” aspect.

What does that mean exactly?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I always thought the Egyptian idols trembled and their hearts melted because the cloud the Lord came on was the Assyrian army (Isa 20:1-6).

If God was coming with the the son on the cloud (Dan 7:13), what was the physical manifestation of the son’s reaching, and being presented before God?

**In my opinion, this prophecy of Daniel 4:13 is a merging with the Isaiah prophecies about the Divine decree for the removal of Judah from existence for having broken the Covenant, and the use of Israel to redeem Judah, because of God’s promise to David to spare Judah. (Isa. 9:8; I Kings 11:36) Therefore, I the physical manifestation of the son presented beofre the Lord as Judah being allowed to stand again before God as the sons of the Most High in Daniel 7:17,22, because Judah had been redeemed. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

I apologize for letting the first and second half of the sentence run together. I meant to say we agree Isaiah is speaking about God’s servant Israel. The second half of the sentence should have said: we Christians believe the initial fulfillment of Isaiah points to another fulfillment in Jesus.

 

[ryanoneil]

**In my opinion, this prophecy of Daniel 4:13 is a merging with the Isaiah prophecies about the Divine decree for the removal of Judah from existence for having broken the Covenant, and the use of Israel to redeem Judah, because of God’s promise to David to spare Judah. (Isa. 9:8; I Kings 11:36) Therefore, I the physical manifestation of the son presented beofre the Lord as Judah being allowed to stand again before God as the sons of the Most High in Daniel 7:17,22, because Judah had been redeemed. **

Thank you. And is a legitimate king who is heir to David required? Or is this about a royal people?

**He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:14) **

 

[ryanoneil]

You do understand, but it seems to me, you are trying to fish something out of me. The Gentiles were always welcome to join Judaism since the time of Isaiah, when this opened to them the chance to convert. (Isa. 56:1-8) Therefore, the invitation to Gentiles is nothing new, or from the time of Jesus.
Ben:

But I only understand parts of Judaism? And mostly how it relates to Catholocism. So, I am fishing.

I’m not really familiar with the Noahite Covenant. It sounds like God has two covenants. One for Jews and one for gentile converts.

But then (Isa 56:1-8) makes it sound like gentiles can be full covenant members.

 

[Ben_Masada]

But I only understand parts of Judaism? And mostly how it relates to Catholocism. So, I am fishing.

I’m not really familiar with the Noahite Covenant. It sounds like God has two covenants. One for Jews and one for gentile converts.

But then (Isa 56:1-8) makes it sound like gentiles can be full covenant members.

The Covenant for Jews and former Gentiles who have converted to Judaism is one and the same. The Noahite Covenant if for Gentiles period.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Thank you. And is a legitimate king who is heir to David required? Or is this about a royal people?

**He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:14) **

Right! It’s about a royal People. (Habakkuk 3:13)

 

[Benjamin8o8]

**I hate to disagree with you, especially after you agreed with me. But I outht to let you know that Paul could not be Antichrist at the time he persecuted the followers of the New Way or Nazarenes, because then, Jesus was not Christ yet. In another perhaps 5 years Paul started preaching about him as Christ in Damascus and Arabia. But only later, in Antioch Paul’s followers started being called Christians. (Acts 11:26)

Ben: **

The New Way or Nazarenes were Christians by the way

Ben:

 

[LutheranDK]

No Ben, it wasn’t a “Roman joke” but a true testimony of Pilate himself because he truly believed that Christ was the Messiah. It was your own people who didn’t.

Nonsense!
Pilate did not believe that Jesus was “the Messiah”!
1: The term “Messiah” meant nothing to Pilate.

2: He was concerned with whether or not Jesus was a political rebel. He didn’t give a flying fiddle-stick about Jewish religious matters, as long as the Jews kept in line and kept from revolting.

Although Ben is usually far-fetched in his ridiculous theories, he is right on this one. The “King of the Jews” - inscription is EITHER a joke to spite the Jewish leaders (whom Pilate had very little love for), or the normal practise of inscribing the accusation against the crucified above his head for everyone to watch.

In this case, I think it’s a little bit of both.

 

[Ben_Masada]

The New Way or Nazarenes were Christians by the way

Ben:

Welcome but take off the blinders. Christians started with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Read Acts 11:26. When Paul used to physically persecute the Nazarenes he would go after those who lived according to the New Way. Read Acts 9:2.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Nonsense!
Pilate did not believe that Jesus was “the Messiah”!
1: The term “Messiah” meant nothing to Pilate.

2: He was concerned with whether or not Jesus was a political rebel. He didn’t give a flying fiddle-stick about Jewish religious matters, as long as the Jews kept in line and kept from revolting.

Although Ben is usually far-fetched in his ridiculous theories, he is right on this one. The “King of the Jews” - inscription is EITHER a joke to spite the Jewish leaders (whom Pilate had very little love for), or the normal practise of inscribing the accusation against the crucified above his head for everyone to watch.

In this case, I think it’s a little bit of both.

Way to go Lutheran DiK! Tell these guys to take off the blinders and stop fighting against the Truth.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Welcome but take off the blinders. Christians started with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Read Acts 11:26. When Paul used to physically persecute the Nazarenes he would go after those who lived according to the New Way. Read Acts 9:2.

Oh boy, whats next? The landing of the moon was hoax? the govenemrnt is hidding the secrets behind area 51? Abraham practiced Islam? The govermenment planned the 9/11 atack? a UFO was recovered at Roswell? come on man, you`re an educated person…put these conspiracy theories to a rest.

Stop taking words out of the Bible to suit your man-made theory and accept the facts please.

Acts 7 — Stephen is stoned to death in the Temple, by the Jews, with Saul witnessing.

Acts 8 — “A great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem.” Paher even admits that Paul, in Acts 8, was “aggressively persecuting” Christians. (P. 3). The text says the persecution was so severe that the only Christians left in Jerusalem were the apostles. This means that literally thousands upon thousands of Christians were forced to flee the city due to persecution. This was at the very time that Paher insists good relations prevailed between the church and the synagogue.

Acts 13:42-51 — **The Jewish persecution of Paul **and his ministry was so acute that Paul shook the dust from his feet. This was a sign of assigning them to judgment.

Acts 18 — We have already seen the Jewish nature and instigation of this persecution. It is also of importance to realize that the Roman proconsul wanted no part in this persecution. At this juncture,** the Romans could not care less about the Christians.**

check this out as well:

The remainder of the first century AD saw the number of Jesus’ followers, who were soon called “Christians,” grow rapidly. Instrumental in the spread of Christianity was a man named Paul, a zealous Jew who had persecuted Christians, then converted to the faith after experiencing a vision of the risen Jesus. Taking advantage of the extensive system of Roman roads and the time of peace, Paul went on numerous missionary journeys throughout the Roman Empire. He started churches, then wrote letters back to them to offer further counsel and encouragement. Many of these letters would become part of the Christian scriptures, the “New Testament.”

In the second and third centuries AD, Christians struggled with persecution from outside the church and doctrinal debates from within the church. Christian leaders, who are now called the “church fathers,” wrote defenses of the false claims made against Christians (apologetics) as well as arguments against false teachings spreading within the church (polemics). Doctrines were explored, developed, and solidified, the canon of the New Testament was formed, and the notion of “apostolic succession” established a system of authority to guard against wrong interpretations of Christian teachings.

its from the site: religionfacts.com/christianity/history/overview.htm

If you want more sources that indicate Paul persecuted Christians before he himself bacame one, get at me and I`ll see what I can do.

Ben:

 

[LutheranDK]

Way to go Lutheran DiK! Tell these guys to take off the blinders and stop fighting against the Truth.

Let’s get one thing straight: I am not your ally in this debate! Your multitudes of degrading comments about the Lord and the Faith are sickening and shows a severe lack of sense of propriety (not to mention insight into what you claim to have knowledge about) - and I will not have my name associated with your ridiculous views.

However, at those times where you ARE right, it makes no sense to contradict you. If Hitler had said that two plus two equals four, and while Roosevelt claimed it was five, I would have agreed with Hitler. Wouldn’t mean that I would subscribe to any of his sick views though.

Same deal here.