The Masons

[benjohnson]

Good to see you are back. I thought we might have lost you Ben.

Glad to be of service

I wouldn’t put it past a sensitive Mason to login and message you to stop conversing. If this does happen, I hope you would see where your freedom lies (and doesn’t).

Oddly enough, I have had a few Catholic Masons PM here at CAF, and they’re happy to have someone talk about the Masons forthrightly.

If anybody does asks me to stop talking (no-one has) , I’ll listen, but I’d probably tell them to bugger off. I’ve been informed that the Masonic youth groups (DeMolay, Rainbow, and Job’s Daughters) have opened up their rituals to patents of the youngsters. So if anything, there’s less secrecy, and that’s a good thing.

There are not many places where an altar exists without some kind of worship. Also, since a “Masonic Bible” exists, one could easily conclude religion. But I’m sure that isn’t mentioned much in the lower blue lodge’s.

In the lodge, we do have several prayers The chaplain opens the Bible and recites a rather standard prayer. There is no sacrament or anything even close to that - Masonry has nothing to do with salivation.

Here’s some typical prayers - some are more Christian for the Masonic bodies that require Christian belief:

masonicsites.org/blue/Masonicprayers.htm

I have my great-uncle’s Masonic bible - It a standard King James bible (no deuterocanonicals ) with a few pages in the front for Masonic brethren to sign after initiation.

Take care,

You too!

 

[KyivAndrew]

Ben Johnson, not to beat a dead horse, but the Masonic oaths leave much to be desired and can provide justification for malfeasance amongst the profane.

The Five Points of Fellowship in Blue Lodge. The sacred word, Mah-Hah-Bone.
Any thing passed from one Mason to another in this form is supposed to be a kept secret, murder and treason excepted. In the Royal Arch degree murder and treason are not excepted, I believe. We can laugh at that but still one finds how easy such oaths can make for malfeasance or wiggle room.

Here, From the ceremony for the Most Sublime Degree of a Royal Arch Mason:

"*Principal Sojourner (to the candidates.)–Brethren, as you advance in Masonry, your obligation becomes more binding. You are now kneeling at the altar for the seventh time; and about to take a solemn oath, or obligation, which, like your former obligations, is not to interfere with the duty you owe to your country, or Maker. If you are willing to proceed, you will repeat your Christian and surname, and say after me:

I, __________, of my own free-will and accord, in presence of Almighty God, and this Chapter of Royal Arch Masons, erected to God, and dedicated to Zerubbabel, do hereby and hereon most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, in addition to my former obligations, that I will not reveal the secrets of this Degree to any of an inferior Degree, nor to any being in the known world, except it be to a true and lawful Companion Royal Arch Mason, or within the body of a just and legally constituted Chapter of such and never unto him, or them, whom I shall hear so to be, but to him and them only whom I shall find so to be, after strict trial and due examination, or lawful information given.

I furthermore promise and swear, that I will not speak evil of a Companion Royal Arch Mason, behind his back nor before his face, but will apprise him of all approaching danger, if in my power.

I furthermore promise and swear, that I will employ a Companion Royal Arch Mason in preference to any other person of equal qualifications,

I furthermore promise and swear, that I will assist a Companion Royal Arch Mason when I see him engaged in any difficulty, and will espouse his cause so far as to extricate him from the same, whether he be right or wrong.

I furthermore promise and swear, that I will keep all the secrets of a Companion Royal Arch Mason (when communicated so me as such, or I knowing them to be such), without exceptions."
*

Emphasis mine. I think the oaths and ceremony leave much to be desired. As I said, in the Royal Arch oath, the candidate swears about the Ineffable Name for God - JahBulon: “I furthermore promise and swear, that I will not speak the Grand Omnific Royal Arch Word, which I shall hereafter receive, in any manner, except in that in which I shall receive it,…”.

I have seen Royal Arch Masons keep that oath to the hilt and not speak the name Jahbulon. What then of what else the candidate promises in his oaths?

I don’t find that particularly morally edifying, but that’s just me, and you seem quite knowledgeable and reasonable on these things.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Sorry per above, in the higher Royal Arch Ceremony, the oath is:

"I furthermore promise and swear, that I will keep all the secrets of a Companion Royal Arch Mason (when communicated so me as such, or I knowing them to be such), without exceptions."

In the Third Degree, the Master Mason, the lesser degree, the candidate promises:

"Further, that I will keep a worthy brother Master Mason’s secrets inviolable, when communicated to and received by me as such, murder and treason excepted."

What Masonic author of these oaths would make murder and treason unacceptable secrets to be kept in the lower degree, but in the Supreme Royal Arch Degree have the murder and treason exception removed? Now I know in all likelihood in today’s society these things may be moot, but it just further emphasizes my point that the oaths are not just jokes but that a lot of consideration went into framing them and some of the things undertaken kneeling at the Masonic Altar at the Masonic Temple aren’t exactly moral exhortations to the highest life.

 

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[benjohnson]

"Further, that I will keep a worthy brother Master Mason’s secrets inviolable, when communicated to and received by me as such, murder and treason excepte

It’s an interesting topic - Much of America’s revolution planning was kept secret in Masonic lodges. So Masons do keep secrets and do plot to overthrow governments - because they have.

That said, I’ve never seen any such planning going on now, and would go to the police if I saw any sort of conspiracy to harm anyone in Government. And nor do I get upset when I see the ‘secrets’ of the ritual out on the internet.

But…

That said, if our country did turn into a totalitarian dictatorship, I would trust my Masonic brothers to help keep each-other safe.

And we do keep secrets: In our lodge, we booted out a married member who was having an inappropriate affair with someone. I’ll keep the name of that former brother secret, as well as the proceedings of the Masonic trial that occurred.

 

[KyivAndrew]

And we do keep secrets: In our lodge, we booted out a married member who was having an inappropriate affair with someone. I’ll keep the name of that former brother secret, as well as the proceedings of the Masonic trial that occurred.

Thanks for your answer benjohnson. However, I think that that married former member whom you kicked out of your lodge was probably having an affair with a brother mason’s wife. In the Masonic oaths you only pledge to refrain from adultery with another brother mason’s wife - you do not pledge to refrain from cheating with a non-Mason’s wife. In other words, you get booted out of the lodge if you fool around with another Mason’s wife but you won’t get booted out if it’s the wife of someone from the “profane” or non-Masonic world. That’s correct isn’t it?

The Masonic oath specifically is against adultery only with respect to another Mason’s wife, not adultery in general.

 

[benjohnson]

Thanks for your answer benjohnson. However, I think that that married former member whom you kicked out of your lodge was probably having an affair with a brother mason’s wife. In the Masonic oaths you only pledge to refrain from adultery with another brother mason’s wife - you do not pledge to refrain from cheating with a non-Mason’s wife. In other words, you get booted out of the lodge if you fool around with another Mason’s wife but you won’t get booted out if it’s the wife of someone from the “profane” or non-Masonic world. That’s correct isn’t it?

The Masonic oath specifically is against adultery only with respect to another Mason’s wife, not adultery in general.

You’re mostly correct… the oath is not just for “Masonic” adultery, but to protect the chastity of all our members wives and other family members like daughters and grand daughters as well. In this particular case, the sex was defiantly consensual, but this part of the oath is there for a reason.

"Further, that I will not have illegal carnal intercourse with a Master Mason’s wife, his mother, sister, or daughter knowing them to be such, nor suffer the same to be done by others, if in my power to prevent. "

Basically, the Lodge is to protect the chastity of our fellow members and their families. It’s a weird oath to modern ears - but I think the world would be a better place if we all lived up to it.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Basically, the Lodge is to protect the chastity of our fellow members and their families. It’s a weird oath to modern ears - but I think the world would be a better place if we all lived up to it.

Well, yeah, but other members see that oath as justifying adultery with the wives of the profane, no questions asked. Some will interpret that Masonic oath as an open invitation to fool around since the source of their morality, the Brotherhood, does not frown upon fooling around with non-Masonic profane women/girls, strictly speaking.

I mean, after all, if you’re supposed to be a Christian, you swear that oath on the Holy Bible in the Masonic Temple. That’s a joke prima facie. The Commandment in the Bible is against adultery and Christ spoke against adultery, no exceptions. Why then swear a Masonic oath allowing adultery (per the letter) on a Holy Book which makes no exception for adultery. That’s just spiritual schizophrenia and, again, another reason why Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity.

 

[benjohnson]

Well, yeah, but other members see that oath as justifying adultery with the wives of the profane, no questions asked.

If anyone views the oath this way, then I would say Freemasonry is not for them.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Masonry started when the Knights Templar were disbanded by one of the Avignon Popes - so there’s a bit of history there. It’s a rather bloody history.

That’s actually a Masonic myth about the Templars, right up there with other Masonic myths arguing for the beginnings of Masonry in ancient Egypt. Simply not true and not upheld by any serious historian.

Yes, you will find books proposing a Templar/Masonic continuation by fabulist authors like the guys who wrote “Holy Blood, Holy Grail” and along those lines. I know the whole routine, Rosslyn Chapel, etc. But the people who make these claims are either Masons trying to make a more ancient starting point for themselves or “experts” who want to sell a couple of books along these lines or Masonic authors prone to declaring Freemasonry and its secret knowledge existed from time immemorial.

Well here is a quote from a real Cambridge instructed writer Piers Paul Read whose The Templars is second to none and not like those Holy Blood Holy Grail nonsense books.
amazon.com/Templars-Dramatic-Powerful-Military-Crusades/dp/0312555385

He writes for the English Conservative Magazine The Spectator as well.

Responding to the lack of historical respectability to fairytale type stories of Masonic links with the Templars, Read writes:

In contrast to the real story behind the Templars: ".*.with the advent of the Enlightenment in the seventeenth century there emerged a third view of the Templars as neither orthodox nor heretical Christians but rather as the high priests of an ancient and occult religion which predated Christ. It might be thought that an intellectual movement that prided itself on supplanting superstition with common sense would blow away the cobwebs of obfuscation that surrounded the Templars, but the Enlightenment was far from being the simple exercise of the rational faculties. (Rather than demystifying)…some eighteenth-century men found Templars, and turned them into a wild fantasy which for mistagogy and obfuscation equaled anything the old Catholic historiography could offer. So successful was the enterprise that to this day it is impossible to approach the Templars without encountering the remnants, of even the full and gaudy robes, of eighteenth-century prejudice.

"The chief agents of this “Templarism”, the metamorphosis of the Templars from history into myth were the Freemasons … whose hypothesis was quite as fanciful as Parzival.

“Speculation did not end with the eighteenth century: in fact it has never been more feverish than it is today*.”

Now that’s written by a modern legitimate scholar, but I’m surprised to find the Templar/Mason myth is still believed. But then again, not every initiate into Freemasonry is an expert on history, so when some Masonic adept in the York Templar rite makes this claim or an adept in the Scottish rite explains the beginnings of freemasonry in the Osiris cult in Egypt, in Mithraism, in the Mediterranean mystery religions, etc. etc., how is Joe the businessman on 3rd street going to realize this is all bunk and not just buy the ancient origins of Freemasonry theory hook line and sinker. How would he know any better. I mean you have all these Masonic esoteric writers like Wilmhurst, Ward, etc. who go looking for fantasies in history and can in no way claim to being historians.

This is just a case of a 17th century brotherhood looking for earlier origins to give its organization more prominence. It’s certainly not history. De Molay was not a Master Mason, neither were any of the other ancient figures Masonry has claimed to be masons. De Molay was executed because the French King wanted the Templars’ treasures, not because De Molay espoused some new religion. The French king resorted to claiming the Templars practiced witchcraft, etc. - a false charge - and then when Freemasonry comes along several centuries later, it attempts to argue the Templars were receivers of some occult secret knowledge and it was for this they were put down, as opposed to the fact they were disbanded simply because of a European King’s desire for their wealth.

 

[gh4]

My father was a mason. He and my Mom were both Eastern Star, and I was a rainbow girl until I reached my majority.
I was raised in the United Church of Christ. My Mom and Dad both attended church every Sunday. My dad was a deacon in the church. My dad sang in the choir (had a fabulous voice) every Sunday.
My parents were Christian. They were good people and they were not evil in any way.
There was nothing at all evil or bad about Rainbow Girls, we had advisers who were great role models who cared very much about us.
I loved the Rainbow Girl DeMolay Dances! I got my first kiss at a Rainbow/DeMolay dance.
I don’t know what it was like before my parents joined the different organizations, but it wasn’t evil and bad when my parents were involved, and Rainbow girls were just normal girls.
It might have been secret, but since my parents were both involved in Eastern Star, I believe they were allowed to attend the meetings if they wanted to, but they never did, there was no reason for them to be there.

 

[Bella92]

It just a social club for rich men to go and have lots of meals and religion and politics are left outside the door. No big deal in that is there apart from expensive meals especially if you’re the chair for the year:shrug:

I got invited to a posh frock do once as the companion of a member. Great night it was too. Don’t really see them doing much other than a bit of charity work and having nice dinners. I’ve no idea what goes on behind their closed doors, but if the bloke I was with is anything to go by, I cant imagine it’s all that exciting. They’re just a mens club that fancy themselves.

 

[TEPO]

Basically, the Lodge is to protect the chastity of our fellow members and their families. It’s a weird oath to modern ears - but I think the world would be a better place if we all lived up to it.

I have a hard time believing this… Sorry.

 

[benjohnson]

I have a hard time believing this… Sorry.

I’m curious, as you seem rather reasonable, what do you believe we Masons are up to in regards to this?

 

[TEPO]

I’m curious, as you seem rather reasonable, what do you believe we Masons are up to in regards to this?

I don’t believe that chastity is much of an issue at all in regards to The lodges, after all what concearn is it of one Mason what another does behind closed doors… That is, as long as it doesn’t effect another Mason.

 

[benjohnson]

I don’t believe that chastity is much of an issue at all in regards to The lodges, after all what concearn is it of one Mason what another does behind closed doors… That is, as long as it doesn’t effect another Mason.

Sadly, you’re probably right - the fact that the brother was married really counted against him more than anything else.

 

[TEPO]

Sadly, you’re probably right - the fact that the brother was married really counted against him more than anything else.

What do you think about the character Hiram Abiff? When you did the play, what was that like?

Were you kind of weirded out by it?

 

[ess1113a]

I’ve said it once and i’ll say it again to those Catholics, and really all christians who are masons. Why not join the Knights of Columbus if your catholic. We wear funny hats and have some secrets too Or if you’re not Catholic, join a club that isn’t as relativist (by this i mean it thinks all religions are equal and true) and still promotes charity. Masonry may be just a club, but I think it promotes religious indifference. Thats my main beef with it.

Some of us have joined the Knights of Columbus and maintain an active membership in both organizations. Not just me but literally hundreds have membership in both. Despite what others may think, there is an active membership that has both cards side by side in their wallet and they do not find conflict in this. Just something to think about.

 

[TEPO]

Just something to think about.

I’m not sure how thinking about that would have any effect in any direction. yet, it gets replayed here to Catholics all the time.

I guess the powers that be confuse Catholics for blind sheep -just following whatever everyone else is doing. But that’s not how it really is.

 

[Sanactus_Cor]

Some of us have joined the Knights of Columbus and maintain an active membership in both organizations. Not just me but literally hundreds have membership in both. Despite what others may think, there is an active membership that has both cards side by side in their wallet and they do not find conflict in this. Just something to think about.

Any practicing catholic and knights of Columbus member should not be a mason because it is against cannon law and the Vatican.