The Messiah

[Kaninchen]

NOPE. It is the same thing because you are trying to sell me your product by trying to convince me that the first product I bought is fake.

But what you believe doesn’t matter to me - whether you’re a Muslim, Mormon, Catholic, Hindu or Buddhist is of no significance.

This is not a good analogy though.

You don’t actually get to decide what is, or is not, a good analogy - you can only say that you think it is or isn’t.

My suggestion pertained to two separate books, different contents of which indicated different purpose of the authors.

To you but not to me.

Actually, the fact that all of the four Evangelists do NOT refer to the prophecies in the Torah in exactly the same way and that Luke does not restrict the notion of prophecy to the Torah debunks your hypothesis.

That rather presumes the ‘literary criticism’ of now (well, the kind of ‘clockwork’ criticism that often pervades these sorts of discussions) rather than that a couple of millennia ago. Had I suggested, which I didn’t, that there was some kind of seamless conspiracy then your answer might (just might) have value.

 

[Kaninchen]

Actually, I’m never offended by things like that - I tend to see it as a kind of ‘witchdoctor pointing a bone’ type of thing. It might sound terribly scary to people who believe or half-believe but to anybody else . . .

 

[Kaninchen]

Hey, it’s a message board! Message boards bring far more heat than light, into our lives

I do think that internet evangelists particularly really should consider whether the approaches that they take don’t have within them the seeds of their own destruction (to borrow from Marx).

 

[Cathdefender]

Because I seriously doubt that Mother Teresa and Hitler are in the same place!

 

[Angelos]

But what you believe doesn’t matter to me - whether you’re a Muslim, Mormon, Catholic, Hindu or Buddhist is of no significance.

What does this have to do with our discussion? Do you really think a person starts to discuss religion only because the faith of others matters to him/her?

You don’t actually get to decide what is, or is not, a good analogy - you can only say that you think it is or isn’t.

I am not posting here in the name of an institution or a community, but on my behalf alone! The things I state are naturally my personal and subjective judgments even if I do not always attach the abbreviation “IMPO” to my remarks.

To you but not to me.

Of course! What else could be said?
Your highly subjective allegations about the NT are true and reasonable only to you, not to me.

That rather presumes the ‘literary criticism’ of now (well, the kind of ‘clockwork’ criticism that often pervades these sorts of discussions) rather than that a couple of millennia ago. Had I suggested, which I didn’t, that there was some kind of seamless conspiracy then your answer might (just might) have value.

I am not necessarily applying a modern literary criticism to the text of the New Testament, but only making a comparative analysis and reaching the conclusion that your hypothesis has several weak points. The thing that matters most to me is that the Gospels had been in the same form a couple of millenia ago. If some Christians did not want to or simply failed to make a similar analysis, this is definitely NOT the fault of the Evangelists and the first generation of Christian believers.

 

[Kaninchen]

What does this have to do with our discussion? Do you really think a person starts to discuss religion only because the faith of others matters to him/her?

Obviously I don’t, almost by definition, I don’t.

I am not necessarily applying a modern literary criticism to the text of the New Testament, but only making a comparative analysis and reaching the conclusion that your hypothesis has several weak points. The thing that matters most to me is that the Gospels had been in the same form a couple of millenia ago. If some Christians did not want to or simply failed to make a similar analysis, this is definitely NOT the fault of the Evangelists and the first generation of Christian believers.

In the end, all that is left to us is total disagreement.

 

[Angelos]

In the end, all that is left to us is total disagreement.

I definitely AGREE

 

[Nickkname]

I’m still researching the things Father said on EWTN, just to let everyone know

 

[Nickkname]

But the first christians weren’t going around citing to Isaiah and other Jewish scripture to support the allegation that Jesus was God or the Messiah. ANd certainly such allegations were not being proposed by the uneducated. And if that is your belief, then I can only say that arguments for Jesus fullfilling prophecies were set forth by the uneducated does not exactly help the “Jews were wrong for rejecting Jesus” argument.

Allow me to prove you wrong about your claim that the first Christians did not cite Isaiah or other Jewish scripture by giving three excerpts from the Acts of the Apostles, an eyewitness account of the life of the early Church:

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them, “You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you, and listen to my words. These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning. No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel: ‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy. And I will work wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below: blood, fire, and a cloud of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of the Lord, and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord.’ You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know. This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him. But God raised him up, releasing him from the throes of death, because it was impossible for him to be held by it. For David says of him: ‘I saw the Lord ever before me, with him at my right hand I shall not be disturbed. Therefore my heart has been glad and my tongue has exulted; my flesh, too, will dwell in hope, because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’ My brothers, one can confidently say to you about the patriarch David that he died and was buried, and his tomb is in our midst to this day. But since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption. God raised this Jesus; of this we are all witnesses. Exalted at the right hand of God, he received the promise of the holy Spirit from the Father and poured it forth, as you (both) see and hear. For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Therefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2, 14-36)

 

[Nickkname]

**So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. This was the scripture passage he was reading: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth. In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth.” Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him. (Acts 8, 27-35)

So Paul got up, motioned with his hand, and said, “Fellow Israelites and you others who are God-fearing, listen. The God of this people Israel chose our ancestors and exalted the people during their sojourn in the land of Egypt. With uplifted arm he led them out of it and for about forty years he put up with them in the desert. When he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance at the end of about four hundred and fifty years. After these things he provided judges up to Samuel (the) prophet. Then they asked for a king. God gave them Saul, son of Kish, a man from the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. Then he removed him and raised up David as their king; of him he testified, ‘I have found David, son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will carry out my every wish.’ From this man’s descendants God, according to his promise, has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus. John heralded his coming by proclaiming a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel; and as John was completing his course, he would say, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. Behold, one is coming after me; I am not worthy to unfasten the sandals of his feet.’ My brothers, children of the family of Abraham, and those others among you who are God-fearing, to us this word of salvation has been sent. The inhabitants of Jerusalem and their leaders failed to recognize him, and by condemning him they fulfilled the oracles of the prophets that are read sabbath after sabbath. For even though they found no grounds for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him put to death, and when they had accomplished all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and placed him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead, and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. These are (now) his witnesses before the people. We ourselves are proclaiming this good news to you that what God promised our ancestors he has brought to fulfillment for us, (their) children, by raising up Jesus, as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son; this day I have begotten you.’ And that he raised him from the dead never to return to corruption he declared in this way, ‘I shall give you the benefits assured to David.’ That is why he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not suffer your holy one to see corruption.’ Now David, after he had served the will of God in his lifetime, fell asleep, was gathered to his ancestors, and did see corruption. But the one whom God raised up did not see corruption. You must know, my brothers, that through him forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you, (and) in regard to everything from which you could not be justified under the law of Moses, in him every believer is justified. Be careful, then, that what was said in the prophets not come about: ‘Look on, you scoffers, be amazed and disappear. For I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will never believe even if someone tells you.’” (Acts 13, 16-41)**

 

[Valke2]

Allow me to prove you wrong about your claim that the first Christians did not cite Isaiah or other Jewish scripture by giving three excerpts from the Acts of the Apostles, an eyewitness account of the life of the early Church:

Again, assuming everything you said supports that early christians cited scripture to prove Jesus was God, the fact that these people were, according to you (I think it was your post) uneducated only supports the argument that Jesus was not the Messiah.

 

[Nickkname]

Nickkname;3787806:

Allow me to prove you wrong about your claim that the first Christians did not cite Isaiah or other Jewish scripture by giving three excerpts from the Acts of the Apostles, an eyewitness account of the life of the early Church:

Again, assuming everything you said supports that early christians cited scripture to prove Jesus was God, the fact that these people were, according to you (I think it was your post) uneducated only supports the argument that Jesus was not the Messiah.

Some of “these people” were the Apostles who followed Jesus around or who saw him after he was resurrected. So I’d say that they’re being uneducated supports the argument that Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Again, assuming everything you said supports that early christians cited scripture to prove Jesus was God, the fact that these people were, according to you (I think it was your post) uneducated only supports the argument that Jesus was not the Messiah.

How educated were the prophets of the our mutual testament? Because Amos was a farmer should we not take his prophesies seriously?

 

[Ed_Rand]

Some of “these people” were the Apostles who followed Jesus around or who saw him after he was resurrected. So I’d say that they’re being uneducated supports the argument that Jesus was the Messiah.

agreed. Thousands of years later we still read the words of Amos and Peter. One a simple farmer, the other a simple fisherman. Both filled with the Spirit of God. Each time we hold the Bible in our hands, we are witness to a miracle.

 

[Cathdefender]

Nickkname;3787806:

Allow me to prove you wrong about your claim that the first Christians did not cite Isaiah or other Jewish scripture by giving three excerpts from the Acts of the Apostles, an eyewitness account of the life of the early Church:

Again, assuming everything you said supports that early christians cited scripture to prove Jesus was God, the fact that these people were, according to you (I think it was your post) uneducated only supports the argument that Jesus was not the Messiah.

Being uneducated has nothing to do with Jesus coming as the Messiah. Seems to me like they were intelligent indeed.

 

[Nickkname]

Getting back on topic: Why don’t Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah? What messianic prophecies and qualities did he not fulfill?

Moreover, I finished my research on what was said on EWTN. Turns out to be true.

 

[planten]

Jesus was the true Messiah that was promised to the Jews. The prophet Muhammad and Quran have confirmed it. Jesus was the one who was to come for the salvation and he came at right time at the right place. Jesus was the promised Messiah of the Jews.

It was bad that the his people ( the people for whom he had come) did not recognise him. They (The Jews) are still waiting for their Messiah. According to Islam, no other Messiah will come for them till the end of times. They will keep on waiting but no one will come…

Now the Jews are waiting for their Messiah and the christians are waiting for the same old Jesus to come back to earth again. It will not happen. I do not want to hurt any the two senior religions. But I have given the reply according to the news in Islam.

 

[HashemEchad]

So! We all know that Jesus is the Messiah. Some believe he was not, others believe he was. He fulfilled all of the requirements.

• He was a Man, like us in all ways.
• He kept the Law of Moses perfectly; he did not sin.
• He was married, spiritually (i.e., the wedding of the Lamb of God).
• He did not die until his task was completed.
• He established a heirarchical Church (by the way, “Chuch” is Greek for Synagogue).
• He was a Jew, and yes, he was circumsized.
• He is King.
• He will come again in glory to perfect the world.

There are other thins too, but I can’t for the life of me remember them right now (it’s 5 AM where I am). Anyhow, he fulfilled all of the messianic requirments, so why do people doubt he is the Messiah?

Actually, “we” don’t “all know” this.

He did not keep the Law of Moses perfectly; in one case, he told his followers to pluck grain on the Sabbath, even though the Law of Moses forbids this. So technically, he did not “keep the Law of Moses perfectly”.

BTW you contradict yourself when you say he did not die until his task was completed…and then go on to say he will come again to perfect the world.

In Judaism, we believe that the true Messiah will get it all done, and done right, the first and only time he comes. No need for a ‘second coming’.

BTW the word Mashiach (Hebrew for anointed one; same as Christos, Greek for anointed one) means just what it says.

When and where was Jesus anointed with oil by a prophet, as Kings Saul, Samuel and Solomon were?

 

[HashemEchad]

From what I understand, Hashem told me that if a Jew follows Christ he is damned to hell for eternal damnation. I guess this is what they teach you in Hebrew school…

We teach that a Jew who practices idolatry without repentence is condemned to gehinnom.

Idolatry is putting a created being or thing before the One God who is a Unity.

We do not single out Jews who apostasize to believe that Jesus was a god. We include ALL Jews who apostasize to ANY foreign nonJewish belief system in which a man is believed to be a god. Or where idols are actually worshipped as gods.

 

[HashemEchad]

It’s been discussed on a dozen threads already and based on your first post, I doubt a discussion on this would be profitable to anyone. If a requirement of the Messiah is that he be married, and you can somehow intrepret Jesus as being married, then there’s nothing in scripture that you won’t see Jesus as fullfilling.

Bingo…you just named my number one headache-causing problem with engaging these types of Christians in polemical debates. It seems as if there is nothing they cannot explain away when they want to.
(BTW that “Jesus was married spiritually” is a new one on me…I guess they figured that one out after I explained that a legal requirement in Judaism for the true Messiah is that he be married?)