The Metamorphosis of the Catholic Mass

[rcn]

Fogny:

Judgemental are we.

“Judgmental” means reaching a conclusion about someone’s thoughts or opinions without basis.

Since Mr. Pirana stated very precisely what his thoughts were, you’ve got no grounds for applying the “judgmental” label to me, none at all. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[cargopilot]

Dr. Bombay:

Who are you to claim that chewing my neighbor’s toenails is ridiculous?

It might be ridiculous to you. To me, it might be my small part in building a caring Catholic faith community.

I’m sorry for laughing my head off, and not being sensitive to your way of building your Catholic faith community…You’re right, it’s not funny, and it’s not ridiculous. It’s serious, and I might just hurt your feelings. Who am I to say how you worship? Besides, it doesn’t anywhere in the GIRM that you can’t do that.

 

[otm]

Dr. Bombay:

Or, we have a bunch of arrogant, prideful Americans who think they know better than the Church.

Or perhaps we have people who are simply not well catechised, and see someone else making a gesture which seems to make sense, and so they mimic it.

To be arrogant and prideful would, IMHO, require that they are first well catechised as to what the Church allows and doesn’t, and why.
Dr. Bombay:

hen there are those who claim if it’s not specifically prohibited in the GIRM, it’s allowed. I guess if I wanted to start chewing my neighbor’s toenails during the Our Father because it helps me build a feeling of community, that would be allowed.

That fits under the category of anything taken to it’s logical extreme is illogical. You and I both know that is also a red herring, a non sequitur, and a few other qualifiers. Let’s eep it to the topic, which is acts which are generally accepted as liturgical acts (although genrally regulated to certain persons).

Interestingly, a number of people in this forum have a significant problem, for example, with hand holding during the Our Father; and have labeled it outright heresy, arrogance, pride, and any number of other terms. However, Archbishop Chaput has said publicly that it is not an abuse; it is a non-regulated gesture as opposed to a prohibited gesture; and that those who wish to hold hands should be permitted to do wo; those who wish not to should be so permitted; and neither side should force their position on the other.

I don’t take Archbishop Chaput to be an arrogant individual, but I have certainly seen a hint of contempt, a lot of anger, and a bit of arrogance in some of the posters who take much umbrage with the issue.

 

[TJD]

Regarding handholding during the Our Father. It is unique to the States. Our Bishop has discouraged it and our Priest has enforced the Bishop’s direction. A few folks did not like the change but we all complied. I think the recommended posture in our diocese is the orans, or at least it is in our Parish.

As for Pride and arrogance. Accepting the teachings of the church is the key. I do think we in America rationalize around the teachings way too much.

We are responsible to teach our children our faith. That implies we work and pray at learning the Catholic faith ourselves.
.

TJD

 

[msproule]

“Judgmental” means reaching a conclusion about someone’s thoughts or opinions without basis.

Since Mr. Pirana stated very precisely what his thoughts were, you’ve got no grounds for applying the “judgmental” label to me, none at all. Wouldn’t you agree?

Actually, it means “inclined to make judgments, especially moral or personal ones”.

Or, if you like, “characterized by a tendency to judge harshly”.

Judgmental may not have been the proper term. I propose “suggestive” instead.

 

[Vox_Borealis]

TJD:

Regarding handholding during the Our Father. It is unique to the States.
TJD

Uh, except where I see it here in Canada. It may have started in the US (this I do not know), but it is by no means unique to it.

And one wonders what posture is typical at a Mass in, say, Africa? Why is it that the swaying and hand-clapping during hymns there is considered a melding of local customs/culture and liturgy, rather than an “innovation” or "prideful arrogance’?

 

[fix]

Fogny:

There have been a number of threads about people and whole parishes exhibiting new gestures and practises that are not specified in the GIRM, who is infecting the Catholic Faith. If you take as truth what people are now saying what these changes are, it sounds like evangelical protestants and charasmatics have invaded the Catholic church, or we have a bunch of the faithfull two timing.

Fogny

I think it is congregationalism. Each group wants their private way to be imposed on the community. Novelty is loved for novelty sake.

As has been said many times one may go into McDonald’s anywhere in the country and know what to expect, the same can’t be said of the Latin rite of the Catholic Church. Each trendy vicar or trendy lay person must introduce something by their own private initiative to make the mass more relevant.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Vox Borealis:

As someone else pointed out, this is a ridiculous example–but of course it IS forbidden by the GIRM because you are required to stand and pray the Our Father, both of which presumably you would not be doing if you were chewing your neighbors toe nails. Moreover, you would not be able to take communion because you will have broken the hour fast.

I can chew someone else’s toenails while standing. Wanna watch me?

And I would only break the fast if I swallowed the toenails. How gross, what kind of a reprobate do you think I am? :tsktsk:

 

[Dr.Bombay]

otm:

Or perhaps we have people who are simply not well catechised, and see someone else making a gesture which seems to make sense, and so they mimic it.

To be arrogant and prideful would, IMHO, require that they are first well catechised as to what the Church allows and doesn’t, and why.

That fits under the category of anything taken to it’s logical extreme is illogical. You and I both know that is also a red herring, a non sequitur, and a few other qualifiers. Let’s eep it to the topic, which is acts which are generally accepted as liturgical acts (although genrally regulated to certain persons).

Interestingly, a number of people in this forum have a significant problem, for example, with hand holding during the Our Father; and have labeled it outright heresy, arrogance, pride, and any number of other terms. However, Archbishop Chaput has said publicly that it is not an abuse; it is a non-regulated gesture as opposed to a prohibited gesture; and that those who wish to hold hands should be permitted to do wo; those who wish not to should be so permitted; and neither side should force their position on the other.

I don’t take Archbishop Chaput to be an arrogant individual, but I have certainly seen a hint of contempt, a lot of anger, and a bit of arrogance in some of the posters who take much umbrage with the issue.

A grey goose? A pink elephant? A red balloon…“floating in the summer sky…”

I don’t give a darn if people hold hands during the Our Father. It’s when they violate my personal space and inflict their clammy paws on my person that I object. Also, please be aware, there have been at least two examples brought up on this forum of hand holders assaulting non-hand holders. That doesn’t speak very highly, in my mind, of the hand-holders predilections. Anger, arrogance and contempt? You betcha.

 

[Elzee]

I was at a Mass recently where the priest had a whole set of hand gestures choreographed to the Our Father that he asked the congregation to do with him (the ‘Our Father’ was spoken, not sung). Is this allowed?

 

[chicago]

Pariah Pirana:

It had to happen…

At Mass this AM, tourists were on both my right and left. Just before the Lord’s prayer I assumed the “praying hands” posture and closed my eyes. I felt the woman to my right grab onto my wrist. As I opened my eyes, the woman on my left grabbed hold of my other wrist…

I just closed my eyes and focused on the prayer, although there were still thoughts running through my head about wishing to take a picture for this forum.

They wanted to be “united in prayer” with/through/in you?

 

[chicago]

Elzee:

I was at a Mass recently where the priest had a whole set of hand gestures choreographed to the Our Father that he asked the congregation to do with him (the ‘Our Father’ was spoken, not sung). Is this allowed?

Reminds me of when I was a kid and we were taught gestures to “Abba Father”.

 

[kathleen_dayton]

I’ve had that happen to me, too, just roll with it out of Christian forbearance. There is still a lot of debate as to what is proper. I for one am uncomfortable with raising my right hand to bless someone…to an outsider, it could look like we are giving the Nazi salute; and the ‘orans’ gesture during the Lord’s prayer makes me uncomfortable, too, so I just don’t do it. Fortunately, as soon as I put on my Sunday scarf (and show up in a skirt that covers my knees) people tend to respect my conservatism, and in fact, I have had some very nice conversations over those things. Just remember, the prime directive is love God first, then you neighbor. God will see to the rest, so don’t sweat it.

 

[OhioBob]

Dr. Bombay:

I can chew someone else’s toenails while standing. Wanna watch me?

And I would only break the fast if I swallowed the toenails. How gross, what kind of a reprobate do you think I am? :tsktsk:

For all we know the chewing of the toenails happened right after the washing of the feet (it seems logical - if you were going to chew you would want them clean first).

It might have been lost in translation over the centuries, along with the hand-holding and dancing…

 

[Mysty101]

Dr. Bombay:

I can chew someone else’s toenails while standing. Wanna watch me?

And I would only break the fast if I swallowed the toenails. How gross, what kind of a reprobate do you think I am? :tsktsk:

And how do you think this silliness will appear to a lucker who is possibly considering conversion?

 

[Mysty101]

Elzee:

I was at a Mass recently where the priest had a whole set of hand gestures choreographed to the Our Father that he asked the congregation to do with him (the ‘Our Father’ was spoken, not sung). Is this allowed?

Was it sign language? We do have signers at one of our Masses

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Mysty101:

And how do you think this silliness will appear to a lucker who is possibly considering conversion?

Might appear to be a caring, sharing Catholic faith community.

 

[TJD]

Uh, except where I see it here in Canada. It may have started in the US (this I do not know), but it is by no means unique to it.

And one wonders what posture is typical at a Mass in, say, Africa? Why is it that the swaying and hand-clapping during hymns there is considered a melding of local customs/culture and liturgy, rather than an “innovation” or "prideful arrogance’?

When my parish discouraged the hand holding thing our priest said hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer was unique to America. Maybe he meant North America. I don’t think they hold hands while praying the Our Father at Mass in Mexico. Does anybody know? Is hand holding during the Lords Prayer in Canada widespread?

I think holding hands at Mass during the Our Father is an American innovation. I apologize for its export. Nonetheless Christ is present and I will pray the Our Father with the congregation even if I have to stretch out across the aisle to hold the guys hand in a neighboring pew. I will just be a bit confused and distracted as I figure out what is expected of me.

Pray Hard!

TJD
.

 

[Elzee]

Mysty101:

Was it sign language? We do have signers at one of our Masses

Not, it wasn’t sign language. I’m somewhat familiar with sign language - we have a signer at our parish also.

This was more to the effect of starting with the orans posture, placing one hand over our heart and then the other, looking at your neighbor, extending our arms out (be careful not to whack the person next to you!), grabbing the hand of the person to your left and then your right, extending our arms up, etc. It was awful. :banghead:

 

[fix]

Dr. Bombay:

Might appear to be a caring, sharing Catholic faith community.