The Missing Passover

[Ben_Masada]

Jesus prayed the Father’s will be done in the same prayer, it was not after realizing His prayer had not been heard, as you say.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Christ prophesied that they would be hated and persecuted because of Him, because they believed in Him. He was not telling Jews they would be hated and persecuted because they would hand Him over to the Romans.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It doesn’t make any difference. It still was not Jesus’ will to walk the way of the cross.

You said Jesus prayed for God’s will after He realized His prayer hadn’t been answered. I explain the difference, using sacred scriptures, and now you say it doesn’t make any difference? I’m sorry, but it is really starting to appear that you are twisting an interpretation of the New Testament to fit your theology.

Jesus was fully human and fully God. Maybe His human nature tempted Him, but He repeated His prayer for God’s will to be done 3 times. I said “maybe”, because I’m not going to suppose myself to think like the Lord.

Metaphorical language. Anyone with a mind to think knows that animal’s blood serves no such a purpose..

Is the language from the Lord below metaphorical?

Lev 17:11 Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, and the blood may be for an expiation of the soul.

If “Thy will be done not mine” means willing submission, one of us must go back to elementary school to start all over again.

Christ had been foretelling His death long before He was arrested. Knowing what was going to happen, and praying thy will be done, as well as following through on it, is submission.

I hope the kids don’t pick on your in elementary school.

**No, Mary was not of the House of David, and she was not of the same Tribe as Joseph’s. The closest record by Luke is that she was a relative of Elizabeth, the Levite. Read Luke 1:5,36.

No, inter-marriages were not forbidden. Not advisable though; but not forbidden. But even if Mary was from the Tribe of Judah and even a daughter of David, it would not help the case of Jesus, because according to Judaism, Tribal lineage was and still is transmitted only through a biological father. Mother and adoption excluded. **

I agree, it was not advisable to have inter-marriages, especially when it was a law promulgated by the Lord.

**Num 36:6 And this is the law promulgated by the Lord touching the daughters of Salphaad: Let them marry to whom they will, only so that it be to men of their own tribe.
Num 36:7 Lest the possession of the children of Israel be mingled from tribe to tribe. For all men shall marry wives of their own tribe and kindred:
Num 36:8 And all women shall take husbands of the same tribe: that the inheritance may remain in the families.
Num 36:9 And that the tribes be not mingled one with another, but remain so
Num 36:10 As they were separated by the Lord. And the daughters of Salphaad did as was commanded:
Num 36:11 And Maala, and Thersa, and Hegla, and Melcha, and Noa were married to the sons of their uncle by their father
Num 36:12 Of the family of Manasses, who was the son of Joseph: and the possession that had been allotted to them, remained in the tribe and family of their father.
Num 36:13 These are the commandments and judgment, which the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses to the children of Israel, in the plains of Moab upon the Jordan over against Jericho. **

Oral tradition has it, Mary’s great-grandfather, Panther, brother of Mathat; her grandfather, Barpanther, was Heli’s cousin; and her father, Joachim, was a cousin of Joseph, Heli’s levirate son.

The irony of this argument is, the Jews of Jesus’ time, did not deny His lineage to David.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Whatever Jesus said in that sermon of his, he said to the Jews. If the Jews lost many lives throughout History in the name of Jesus, this means that Jesus’ words were fulfilled.

That is a misinterpretation, as I’ve explained.

But you are using a religious Jew to insert Hellenistic innovations into Judaism.

I am using the Messiah, the only begotten Son of God, of the new covenant of God, since their fathers made void the first covenant, inserted into Judaism, to make it Christianity. You are not the first to reject the Messiah.

Jer 31:31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.

The Jews did not handle Jesus over to the Romans. It doesn’t make sense. If Jesus came to confirm the most important thing to a Jew, which is the Law, how could the Jews hand him to foreign occupying forces to kill him? You are an intellingent person. Does it make any sense?

History disagrees with you.

Psa 118:22 The stone which the builders rejected; the same is become the head of the corner.
Psa 118:23 This is the Lord’s doing , and it is wonderful in our eyes.

Thank you for the compliment. I like to consider myself intelligent, as well as faithful.

Tell me, hasn’t the thought of converting me ever occurred to your mind? But of course, all the time! So, stop the cop-out and keep trying.

No cop out. I’m not the one that stated that Jews were now allowed to do missionary work and proseltyze and I was free to speak, you did. I’m not on a missionary trip here. I’m a Catholic on a Catholic forum. I’m here to answer questions about the Catholic faith. Does this mean I wouldn’t be happy if you converted? No, I would be extremely happy, but I cannot convert anyone, only the Holy Spirit can do that.

 

[Ben_Masada]

That is a misinterpretation, as I’ve explained.

 

[Ben_Masada]

quote]You said Jesus prayed for God’s will after He realized His prayer hadn’t been answered. I explain the difference, using sacred scriptures, and now you say it doesn’t make any difference? I’m sorry, but it is really starting to appear that you are twisting an interpretation of the New Testament to fit your theology.

**As I can see, you love to put words in my mouth which were not in my mind. Produce the post where I said that Jesus prayed for God’s will. I said that he prayed three times to make God change His mind about dying on the cross. That’s quite different. **

Jesus was fully human and fully God. Maybe His human nature tempted Him, but He repeated His prayer for God’s will to be done 3 times. I said “maybe”, because I’m not going to suppose myself to think like the Lord.

As I also can see, we are not talking about the same person. I am talking about a Jew called Jesus. You must be talking about a Greek demigod, or someone born of Zeus with Afrodite.

Is the language from the Lord below metaphorical?
Lev 17:11 Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, and the blood may be for an expiation of the soul

The language is not of the Lord but of man. The Torah was written in the language of man. Therefore yes, it is metaphorical. Besides, God is not like a man to have a language. God is incorporeal. You are being too anthropomorphic about God.

Christ had been foretelling His death long before He was arrested. Knowing what was going to happen, and praying thy will be done, as well as following through on it, is submission.

**If Jesus had been foretelling his death long before he was arrested, why would he be dying of anxiety, even sweating like drops of blood just prior to being arrested? It doesn’t make much sense. Does it? **

I agree, it was not advisable to have inter-marriages, especially when it was a law promulgated by the Lord.

It was not a law; and it was not promulgated by God or by man. It was a suggestion or warning in order to keep the assets of the family within the Tribe of origin.

Oral tradition has it, Mary’s great-grandfather, Panther, brother of Mathat; her grandfather, Barpanther, was Heli’s cousin; and her father, Joachim, was a cousin of Joseph, Heli’s levirate son.

**I told you already that even if Mary was a daughter of David, it would not help Jesus, because Tribal lineage cannot be transmitted througlh the mother or adoption. If you want to set Jesus in the lineage of David he had to be a biological son of Joseph’s. Sorry, but you can’t bake your cake and eat it too. **

The irony of this argument is, the Jews of Jesus’ time, did not deny His lineage to David.

But of course! They knew the truth that Jesus was a biological son of Joseph’s. The conspiracy was established more than 50 years after Jesus had been gone. Check the dates for the gospels.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Did Jesus reign in the House of Jacob or climbed up the throne of David? Faith can be funny sometimes.

 

[rinnie]

But you cannot remove from your own NT the reason to hate the Jews. Therefore, it becomes a cop-out to say that Catholics don’t hate the Jews.
This remind me of the “Palestinian” Arabs, who may sit down for negotiations about peace, but they cannot remove from their covenant the item that calls for the extermination of Israel. How can I believe in the Christian lip-service if the false accusation that the Jews killed Jesus is down in their covenant?

Just because we cannot remove what the Jews did does not mean we hate them. The opposite is quite clear. Jesus gave us the reason: Love one another as the Father has loved you. We are taught Ben if we cannot forgive our Brother then God will not forgive us.

On the Cross Jesus did not hate them. He said forgive them Father they know not what they do. IF Jesus taught us not to hate, and he forgave, and we are to follow his example, we must forgive and Love one another.

Just because we have reason to hate, does not give us permission to hate. The Pope says hate the SIn, love the Sinner.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**You haven’t explained anything. When Jesus went up to that mountain to deliver that speech of his, all the crowds sat down the mountainside to listen to him, and he delivers his speech in the ears of the disciples? Makes no sense to me. **

He told the people they would be hated for His name’s sake. Jesus Christ was followed by CHRISTians. He was telling those who believed in Him. It makes no sense to you, because you don’t want to accept it.

This is pure Pauline Replacement Theology. Here is the reason why I am here: To fix the image of Judaism that you have distorted by using a religious Jew to show that also from Judaism Greek Mythology can come. A Jew cannot be son of God with a woman.

There was a replacement, of covenants.

As you can see, it has nothing to do with Gentiles or Christianity.

It has to do with the Jews, who voided the covenant of the Lord. Through the new covenant, there is neither Jew or Gentile.

Nevertheless, in verses 35-37 of the same chapter, Ezekiel says that if Israel is ever rejected by God, the natural laws will go berserk . It means universal catastrophes.

A catastrophe, like the veil of the temple being rent in two, the destruction of Jerusalem, including the temple, or a new covenant making all people His chosen?

**History also tells of the many thousands of Jews the Church
killed through Crusades and Inquisition. I bet that doesn’t make sense to you, does it? **

Jesus was arrested by the Jews and handed over to the Romans, that’s a correct history. I’m sorry history doesn’t agree with your theology.

**A footnote in the Catholic St. Joseph’s edition of the New American version of the Bible explains Psalm 118:22 as being Israel that corner stone. **

Yes, you might be getting it now. Jesus was the new Israel.

We’ve stated our beliefs, and as I said in a previous post, you’re not going to change my beliefs and I don’t expect to change your beliefs. There’s no need to go around the circle again on these topics.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**As I can see, you love to put words in my mouth which were not in my mind. Produce the post where I said that Jesus prayed for God’s will. I said that he prayed three times to make God change His mind about dying on the cross. That’s quite different. **

See your quote below:

How can that be true when you look at him praying three times trying to persuade God not to let him go through the way of the cross? When he realized that his prayer was not heard, he said, "be thy will done and not mine." What was Jesus’ will to take our sins by dying on the cross? Hardly!

That’s what you said, I then responded with, “Jesus prayed the Father’s will be done in the same prayer, it was not after realizing His prayer had not been heard, as you say.”

You responded to that with:

It doesn’t make any difference. It still was not Jesus’ will to walk the way of the cross.

As I also can see, we are not talking about the same person. I am talking about a Jew called Jesus. You must be talking about a Greek demigod, or someone born of Zeus with Afrodite.

See where you went. Do you think that is respecting the Catholic faith? Catholics believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah, the only begotten Son of God, who delivered a new covenant, because their fathers made void the old covenant.

If that’s the best you can do, you will be talking to yourself because no Christian is going to give you any consideration.

The language is not of the Lord but of man. The Torah was written in the language of man. Therefore yes, it is metaphorical. Besides, God is not like a man to have a language. God is incorporeal. You are being too anthropomorphic about God.

You don’t believe God spoke to Moses?

Lev 17:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
Lev 17:11 Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, and the blood may be for an expiation of the soul.

I thought it was only the New Testament you believed 20% of, I didn’t know you treated the Old Testament the same way. I guess if it doesn’t fit what you say, or your theology, it’s ok to discount it?

**If Jesus had been foretelling his death long before he was arrested, why would he be dying of anxiety, even sweating like drops of blood just prior to being arrested? It doesn’t make much sense. Does it? **

It doesn’t make sense to anyone that rejected Him.

It was not a law; and it was not promulgated by God or by man. It was a suggestion or warning in order to keep the assets of the family within the Tribe of origin.

Maybe you should consider that school you mentioned in one of your earlier posts. It plainly states, “And this is the law promulgated by the Lord.” I added the last verse for you to reject this time, it states, “These are the commandments and judgment, which the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses to the children of Israel.” I’m sorry it doesn’t fit your theology.

**Num 36:6 And this is the law promulgated by the Lord touching the daughters of Salphaad: Let them marry to whom they will, only so that it be to men of their own tribe.
Num 36:7 Lest the possession of the children of Israel be mingled from tribe to tribe. For all men shall marry wives of their own tribe and kindred:
Num 36:8 And all women shall take husbands of the same tribe: that the inheritance may remain in the families.

Num 36:13 These are the commandments and judgment, which the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses to the children of Israel, in the plains of Moab upon the Jordan over against Jericho. **

**I told you already that even if Mary was a daughter of David, it would not help Jesus, because Tribal lineage cannot be transmitted througlh the mother or adoption. If you want to set Jesus in the lineage of David he had to be a biological son of Joseph’s. Sorry, but you can’t bake your cake and eat it too. **

You’ve told me a lot of things that don’t appear to be true, according to scriptures.

But of course! They knew the truth that Jesus was a biological son of Joseph’s. The conspiracy was established more than 50 years after Jesus had been gone. Check the dates for the gospels.

Did Jesus reign in the House of Jacob or climbed up the throne of David? Faith can be funny sometimes.

Your sarcastic condescending tone makes everyone back off anything you have to say. You haven’t figured that out yet? Just as God setup the throne of David, He gave it to His Son.

This is too much of a circular argument. You’re going down the same path, saying the same things.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Just because we cannot remove what the Jews did does not mean we hate them. The opposite is quite clear. Jesus gave us the reason: Love one another as the Father has loved you. We are taught Ben if we cannot forgive our Brother then God will not forgive us.

On the Cross Jesus did not hate them. He said forgive them Father they know not what they do. IF Jesus taught us not to hate, and he forgave, and we are to follow his example, we must forgive and Love one another.

Just because we have reason to hate, does not give us permission to hate. The Pope says hate the SIn, love the Sinner.

**The Jews did not do what the NT lies about us. Do you think I am a moron unable to deterct what you are trying to say? Don’t talk for the others but for yourself alone. Because of those lies in the NT, we have lost many precious lives in
the name of Jesus. And if Jesus ever said those words on the cross, he meant the Romans and not the Jews.

So, the Pope said what? "Hate the sin, and love the sinner? Which Pope, Innocence III or John 23rd? While Innocence III hated the sinner by organizing the 4th Crusade whose Christian sword decapitated hundreds of Jewish heads, only John 23rd loved the sinner by asking the Jewish People in public to forgive Christianity for the 2,000 years old false accusation that we killed Jesus. Therefore, when you say, “The Pope says,” define which one.**

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**The Jews did not do what the NT lies about us. Do you think I am a moron unable to deterct what you are trying to say? Don’t talk for the others but for yourself alone. Because of those lies in the NT, we have lost many precious lives in
the name of Jesus. And if Jesus ever said those words on the cross, he meant the Romans and not the Jews.

So, the Pope said what? "Hate the sin, and love the sinner? Which Pope, Innocence III or John 23rd? While Innocence III hated the sinner by organizing the 4th Crusade whose Christian sword decapitated hundreds of Jewish heads, only John 23rd loved the sinner by asking the Jewish People in public to forgive Christianity for the 2,000 years old false accusation that we killed Jesus. Therefore, when you say, “The Pope says,” define which one.**

You know Ben, your’s is a glass house argument. Yes, there were sinful men in the Church and men of faith who made mistakes, just as there were sinful Jews through history and faithful Jews that made mistakes. So, what’s your point? Should we hate each other for the sins of past generations? Would that please God? Or, should we be forgiving and accept each other with our differences?

Let’s move up in history, from where you keep pointing a finger. Let’s look at World War II. Protestants, Catholics, Jews, atheists, and everyone else pulled together to stop an evil unleashed. Do you think in the heat of the battle, there were any differences between them all?

 

[rinnie]

**The Jews did not do what the NT lies about us. Do you think I am a moron unable to deterct what you are trying to say? Don’t talk for the others but for yourself alone. Because of those lies in the NT, we have lost many precious lives in
the name of Jesus. And if Jesus ever said those words on the cross, he meant the Romans and not the Jews.

So, the Pope said what? "Hate the sin, and love the sinner? Which Pope, Innocence III or John 23rd? While Innocence III hated the sinner by organizing the 4th Crusade whose Christian sword decapitated hundreds of Jewish heads, only John 23rd loved the sinner by asking the Jewish People in public to forgive Christianity for the 2,000 years old false accusation that we killed Jesus. Therefore, when you say, “The Pope says,” define which one.**

Oh my feel the Love:coolinoff: You are so full of anger Ben. The Jews did do what the N.T. said. If you lost precious lives it was not in the name of Jesus. How could it be it is a sin to kill, so I would not say breaking one of his commandments was doing it in the name of Jesus. And when Jesus said those words on the cross they were meant for everyone. Many were persecuted in the name of Jesus. Heck look at how you persecute us now for being Christians. But it has nothing to do with Jesus. It has to do with hate and bitterness, and that is never in the name of Jesus. Hate, and bitterness, and killing is the works of the devil. You need to cool off Ben, you are loosing your arguments on the threads and getting very angry. Anger will never get you into heaven Ben, Only the Love and forgiveness of Our Dear Lord Jesus Christ can do that. Look what you are letting your hate for Christians do to you. You have become a very angry and bitter person over the last few months. All you have been doing is trying to disagree with the word of God in the N.T. and its not working for you. So you have let your heart fill up with hate. Time to take a time out Ben.

 

[Lapell]

Prodigal Son1;5154865:

Whatever Jesus said in that sermon of his, he said to the Jews. If the Jews lost many lives throughout History in the name of Jesus, this means that Jesus’ words were fulfilled.

That sermon, Ben, was addressed to His disciples!

 

[Lapell]

**The Jews did not do what the NT lies about us. Do you think I am a moron unable to detect what you are trying to say? Don’t talk for the others but for yourself alone. Because of those lies in the NT, we have lost many precious lives in the name of Jesus. And if Jesus ever said those words on the cross, he meant the Romans and not the Jews.**Ben, really!!! I can understand you have an over-sensitive skin about antisemitism, though! And we would have if we passed through what you and the other Jews have experienced from it. I certainly want to respect your painful feelings. I realize that I can,t speak in the name of the rest of us but in my own. Yet I disagree with you about what you say about the whole NT being anti-semitic. It is not the truth.

 

[Ben_Masada]

You know Ben, your’s is a glass house argument. Yes, there were sinful men in the Church and men of faith who made mistakes, just as there were sinful Jews through history and faithful Jews that made mistakes. So, what’s your point? Should we hate each other for the sins of past generations? Would that please God? Or, should we be forgiving and accept each other with our differences?

Let’s move up in history, from where you keep pointing a finger. Let’s look at World War II. Protestants, Catholics, Jews, atheists, and everyone else pulled together to stop an evil unleashed. Do you think in the heat of the battle, there were any differences between them all?

But we are not talking about you and me. We are talking about a Pope, for heaven’s sake! Anyways, never mind this point. I agree with you.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Oh my feel the Love:coolinoff: You are so full of anger Ben.

So, why did Pope John 23rd have to ask the Jews to forgive Christianity for 2,000 years of a false accusation?

Heck look at how you persecute us now for being Christians.

You must be either joking or you don’t know what persecution is.

Hate, and bitterness, and killing is the works of the devil.

There is no such a thing as devil. Hate, bitterness and killing are the works of man.

Anger will never get you into heaven Ben,

Heaven is what we make for each other here on earth.

All you have been doing is trying to disagree with the word of God in the N.T.

I disagree with the NT only when it attributes non-Jewish behaviour to a religlious Jew.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5160942:

That sermon, Ben, was addressed to His disciples!

Great! Jesus climbs up the Mount, a crowd of Jews accommodate themselves throughout the mountainside to listen to him and he delivers his sermon in the ears of the disciples. You should register your patent on this one.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, really!!! I can understand you have an over-sensitive skin about antisemitism, though! And we would have if we passed through what you and the other Jews have experienced from it. I certainly want to respect your painful feelings. I realize that I can,t speak in the name of the rest of us but in my own. Yet I disagree with you about what you say about the whole NT being anti-semitic. It is not the truth.

Tell me Lapell, before we leave this subject for good and return to the thread, to accuse the Jews with having killed Jesus, when we all know that the Romans did it, is it Antisemitism or not? Just yes or no?

 

[rinnie]

So, why did Pope John 23rd have to ask the Jews to forgive Christianity for 2,000 years of a false accusation?

You must be either joking or you don’t know what persecution is.

There is no such a thing as devil. Hate, bitterness and killing are the works of man.

Heaven is what we make for each other here on earth.

I disagree with the NT only when it attributes non-Jewish behaviour to a religlious Jew.

Oh geeeeeeeeeeze. Now you don’t believe in the O.T. either. I guess the serpent was a very Holy Person who helped to do God’s work, not against God. And heaven is here on earth. ITs useless Ben. Well enjoy your heaven, Me, I will wait until I can be will Jesus. that will be my heaven.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Oh geeeeeeeeeeze. Now you don’t believe in the O.T. either. I guess the serpent was a very Holy Person who helped to do God’s work, not against God. And heaven is here on earth. ITs useless Ben. Well enjoy your heaven, Me, I will wait until I can be will Jesus. that will be my heaven.

**You are not focused when you read. I did not say that Heavens is here on earth. I said that Heavens is what we make to each other here on earth. It means that it could be also hell.

You are right when you say that I don’t believe in the O.T. I don’t even believe there was ever a O.T. I believe in the Tanach or Hebrew Scriptures. O.T. is a misnomer that gives off the idea of Replacement Theology.

Oh! You are one of those who believe in talking snake? The whole Genesis account of Creation is an allegory. Not only you but all of us will be with Jesus soon or later, which is the grave. That’s the real heaven. Eternal rest.**