The Missing Passover

[qui_est_ce]

** Your question back to me [snip}understood my post. It says that Paul went for letters from the High Priest to arrest Nazarenes in Damascus. It doesn’t make sense that Israel, the Country would send an envoy to arrest citizens of another country when the Jewish leaders had no power even over Israel itself.

No, the Jews did not hand Jesus over to the Romans. Not Jesus of all men who had come to confirm the most precious thing of the Jew, which is the Law. Therefore, it makes no sense to accuse the Jews with the death of Jesus. Jesus was crucified on political charges.**** Ben-
I really like your questions, but your attitude is off putting. I am really interested in the subjects you bring up. I think if you rephrased your posts as less hostile, we would all benefit.

 

[Lapell]

**You did not understand my post. What does not make sense is that Paul went to Jerusalem for letters to persecute Nazarenes in Damascus when they were in Jerusalem in much greater number than anywhere else. And it does not make sense that Israel would give letters to arrest citizens of another country when Israel had lost its jurisprudence even over Israel itself. If you ask me, that never happened. It must have been another blunder of Luke’s. Just use Logic and commonsense. **

First of all, followers of Jesus existed also in other cities, towns and villages, Ben, not just in Jerusalem.
And secondly, as for the letters, they were from the Jewish religious authority, Ben. And I can see that the religious authority of the High Priest could spread to everywhere Judaism was taught, to every synagogue, not just the synagogues in the territory of the Land of Israel…

 

[Lapell]

I do not hate Christianity; I just want to erase the hatred of Christianity in accusing the Jews with the death of Jesus.

I would certainly wish you stop believing just any false propaganda on Christianity based certain appearances. Christianity does NOT teach to hate the Jews. If certain clergy people did, it doesn’t follow automatically from it that they would do it because Christianity.
Even if there were many, and that many would follow them, even then it doesn’t necessarily follow that they were just follow a so-called teaching that would allow the Catholics to hate Jews. They quite did it willingly out of prejudiced opinions of theirown and also of other people around them…

 

[Lapell]

Moreover,like I said elsewhere, it’s not all the Catholics who hated the Jews and accused them. That accusation, anyway, should only apply to some of the Jews, even among the Jewish authority, and only in the time when Jesus was crucified, not after. Some other Jews also can be accused of having persecuted the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth in many ways in the apostolic period… but that should be it!!!

 

[Ben_Masada]

Moreover,like I said elsewhere, it’s not all the Catholics who hated the Jews and accused them. That accusation, anyway, should only apply to some of the Jews, even among the Jewish authority, and only in the time when Jesus was crucified, not after. Some other Jews also can be accused of having persecuted the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth in many ways in the apostolic period… but that should be it!!!

But you cannot remove from your own NT the reason to hate the Jews. Therefore, it becomes a cop-out to say that Catholics don’t hate the Jews.
This remind me of the “Palestinian” Arabs, who may sit down for negotiations about peace, but they cannot remove from their covenant the item that calls for the extermination of Israel. How can I believe in the Christian lip-service if the false accusation that the Jews killed Jesus is down in their covenant?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I would certainly wish you stop believing just any false propaganda on Christianity based certain appearances. Christianity does NOT teach to hate the Jews. If certain clergy people did, it doesn’t follow automatically from it that they would do it because Christianity.
Even if there were many, and that many would follow them, even then it doesn’t necessarily follow that they were just follow a so-called teaching that would allow the Catholics to hate Jews. They quite did it willingly out of prejudiced opinions of theirown and also of other people around them…

**I don’t agree with you that those Catholics or Christians in general that openly reveal their hatred is based on prejudiced opinions of their own. One does not hate anyone just out of the blue. Their reason is down in the pages of their covenant called NT. **

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But you cannot remove from your own NT the reason to hate the Jews. Therefore, it becomes a cop-out to say that Catholics don’t hate the Jews.
This remind me of the “Palestinian” Arabs, who may sit down for negotiations about peace, but they cannot remove from their covenant the item that calls for the extermination of Israel. How can I believe in the Christian lip-service if the false accusation that the Jews killed Jesus is down in their covenant?

It is because of Jesus we do not hate Jews, or anyone.

Mat 5:43 You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thy enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:
Mat 5:45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.

I personally do not hate anyone, and certainly not a whole group of people.

Yes, there were Jews that handed Christ over to the Romans, but there were many Jews that converted to Christianity. The Romans killed Him, but there were Romans that converted to Christianity. Christ died for the sins of all of us, Jew and Gentile.

 

[Ben_Masada]

First of all, followers of Jesus existed also in other cities, towns and villages, Ben, not just in Jerusalem.
And secondly, as for the letters, they were from the Jewish religious authority, Ben. And I can see that the religious authority of the High Priest could spread to everywhere Judaism was taught, to every synagogue, not just the synagogues in the territory of the Land of Israel…

**I agree with, but they were not Christians. They were Nazarenes. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

It is because of Jesus we do not hate Jews, or anyone.

Mat 5:43 You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thy enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:
Mat 5:45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.

I personally do not hate anyone, and certainly not a whole group of people.

Yes, there were Jews that handed Christ over to the Romans, but there were many Jews that converted to Christianity. The Romans killed Him, but there were Romans that converted to Christianity. Christ died for the sins of all of us, Jew and Gentile.

**Jesus was a learnt Jew, and he knew very well that’s against Jewish Law for a man to die for another. He would not contradict the Scriptures. (Deut. 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:4) **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben-
I really like your questions, but your attitude is off putting. I am really interested in the subjects you bring up. I think if you rephrased your posts as less hostile, we would all benefit.

It’s just your impression that I reflect hostility. I don’t think I am hostile. But anyways, I don’t think it matters how a dress the message, I am not sure you are interested in the truth. Or perhaps you are but in the truth of the Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**Jesus was a learnt Jew, and he knew very well that’s against Jewish Law for a man to die for another. He would not contradict the Scriptures. (Deut. 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:4) **

I understand that’s what you believe. Please understand what we believe:

The verses you provide state we will all be held accountable for our own sins, which is still true. We will all be judged according to our deeds.

Jesus came to fulfill the law of the old covenant. He gave us a new covenant, unlike the covenant of their fathers. As you provided Jer. 31:30, please continue to read what the prophet said.

Jer 31:31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I understand that’s what you believe. Please understand what we believe:

The verses you provide state we will all be held accountable for our own sins, which is still true. We will all be judged according to our deeds.

Jesus came to fulfill the law of the old covenant. He gave us a new covenant, unlike the covenant of their fathers. As you provided Jer. 31:30, please continue to read what the prophet said.

**If you do acknowledge that we all must render account for our own sins, why drop them on the shoulders of Jesus, when he could not contradict the Law, as a religious Jew that he was?

If Jesus, as you claim, fulfilled the Law for us, how come we still have to be judged and be accountable for our own sins? That’s what I call contradiction in tems. Besides, did you read Matthew 5:19? It says in there that just as Jesus fulfilled the Law we all are supposed to do the same and teach it without any change even of a dot on a letter.

I read what Jeremiah says after 31:30. That the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Nothing to do with Gentiles or Christianity. Why don’t you tell me how you make the connection? **

 

[Ben_Masada]

It is because of Jesus we do not hate Jews, or anyone.

.

**It’s interesting to hear you say that you don’t hate Jews because of Jesus, when Jesus said to the Jews that they would be hated and persecuted because of him. (Mat. 5:11) **

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**If you do acknowledge that we all must render account for our own sins, why drop them on the shoulders of Jesus, when he could not contradict the Law, as a religious Jew that he was?

If Jesus, as you claim, fulfilled the Law for us, how come we still have to be judged and be accountable for our own sins? That’s what I call contradiction in tems. Besides, did you read Matthew 5:19? It says in there that just as Jesus fulfilled the Law we all are supposed to do the same and teach it without any change even of a dot on a letter.

I read what Jeremiah says after 31:30. That the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Nothing to do with Gentiles or Christianity. Why don’t you tell me how you make the connection? **

We did not drop our sins on Jesus. He took them upon Himself. Just as, under the old laws, animals were sacrificed for the expiation of sins. Jesus became the one time sacrifice, whose blood washes away all sin of those who believe on Him and repent of their sins. Jesus was the Lamb of God. Judgement will tell who believed and who didn’t. Every type and figure, jot and tittle, was fulfilled by Him.

Jesus was of the house of David, who was king of Judah, and is the new Israel.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**It’s interesting to hear you say that you don’t hate Jews because of Jesus, when Jesus said to the Jews that they would be hated and persecuted because of him. (Mat. 5:11) **

He did not tell the Jews they would be hated and persecuted because of him. He told His followers, Christians, they would be hated and persecuted because they believed in Him. You, yourself, have pointed out how Christians were persecuted and martyred because of Him.

**Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

Mar 13:13 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.

Luk 21:17 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake.

Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, know ye that it hath hated me before you.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

We did not drop our sins on Jesus. He took them upon Himself.

 

[Ben_Masada]

He did not tell the Jews they would be hated and persecuted because of him. He told His followers, Christians, they would be hated and persecuted because they believed in Him.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How can that be true when you look at him praying three times trying to persuade God not to let him go through the way of the cross? When he realized that his prayer was not heard, he said, “be thy will done and not mine.” What was Jesus’ will to take our sins by dying on the cross? Hardly!

Jesus prayed the Father’s will be done in the same prayer, it was not after realizing His prayer had not been heard, as you say.

Mat 26:39 And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt.

Animals sacrifices never served the purpose to expiate for sins. Animal sacrifices were meant as the symbol of the supreme sacrifice of the People.

**Exo 29:36 And thou shalt offer a calf for sin every day for expiation. And thou shalt cleanse the altar when thou hast offered the victim of expiation, and shalt anoint it to sanctify it.

Num 29:5 And a buck goat for sin, which is offered for the expiation of the people,

2Ch 29:24 And the priests immolated them, and sprinkled their blood before the altar for an expiation of all Israel: for the king had commanded that the holocaust and the sin offering should be made for all Israel.

Eze 45:17 And the prince shall give the holocaust, and the sacrifice, and the libations on the feasts, and on the new moons, and on the sabbaths, and on all the solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall offer the sacrifice for sin, and the holocaust, and the peace offerings to make expiation for the house of Israel.**

I hope the above scriptures removes any semantics I feel was about to get in the way of our discussion.

How about the sacrifice of the other thousands of Jews sacrificed just like Jesus? Their blood did not count?

The other “thousands” of Jews were crucified and not sacrificed. Jesus knew, evident by the prayers we discussed, what was to happen. He willingly submitted to the will of the Father. Jesus was the Lamb of God.

For Jesus to have been of the House of David, he had to be a biological son of Joseph’s. That’s my price to agree with you that he was of the House of David. Are ready for that?

Mary’s lineage was of the House of David. Was she not of the same tribe as Joseph? According to the Law of Moses, weren’t inter-marriages between different tribes forbidden?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you remember, I put the quotation down. Jesus was delivering his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, and he told them that they would be hated and persecuted because of him. Christians started 30 years later with Paul in Antioch. Read Acts 11:26.

Christ prophesied that they would be hated and persecuted because of Him, because they believed in Him. He was not telling Jews they would be hated and persecuted because they would hand Him over to the Romans.

Produce the post where I said that. How can you do this?

I am not trying to put words in your mouth and it may have been a misunderstanding of what’s being typed. You had mentioned Saul’s letters to persecute Christians and I took it as you accepted the fact that Christians were being persecuted. I apologize for any misunderstanding on this point.

And of course you think the text is talking about Christians, who are hated by all nations. Sure, whatever you say..

Let’s clear the air here. I am not going to change my belief because of what you say, nor do I expect you to change because of what I say. I am simply trying to explain what we believe.

I believe you are twisting New Testament scriptures at every turn to support your theology. No Christian is going to accept your interpretation of the hating and persecution as pointed towards Jews for handing Christ over to the Romans.

There’s no need to be condescending or sarcastic in your response. Are you taking such a tone because you have some expectation of converting some Christians to Judaism?

 

[qui_est_ce]

**It’s just your impression that I reflect hostility. I don’t think I am hostile. **

Well, Ben, I’m not the only one who feels attacked. You write in large bold letters…

But anyways, I don’t think it matters how a dress the message, I am not sure you are interested in the truth. Or perhaps you are but in the truth of the Church.

See? There you go again. I tell you I’m interested in this topic, but you just dismiss me. Maybe I’ll just let you post your attacks and read Prodigal’s and Lapell’s answers. They appear more researched and intelligent than you.