The Missing Passover

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Ben_Masada said:
The point is that I don’t see any truth in the links you asked me to read. They are opinions of Gentiles with the preconceived notion and purpose to discredit 4,000 years of a Jewish custom. We are talking about Judaism and Jewish People. And there was no reason at all for Jesus to use any other calendar different from the calendar used by the greater Jewish population. Every year he would come up to Jerusalem with his parents to celebrate Passover on the 14th of Nisan with everyone else. Why would he decide to use the 13th of Nisan to celebrate in the year 30? That’s foul play by Gentile conspiracy.
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In fulfilling the prophesy, there was no need for it to remain the same, as it was with their fathers. I’ve told you, Christ had a desire to eat the Pasch with His Apostles and He knew what was going to happen, because of the “conspiracy” against Him. The Passover became the Lord’s Supper through His fulfillment.

Jer 31:31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 
Ben_Masada said:
The point is that I don’t see any truth in the links you asked me to read. They are opinions of Gentiles with the preconceived notion and purpose to discredit 4,000 years of a Jewish custom. We are talking about Judaism and Jewish People. And there was no reason at all for Jesus to use any other calendar different from the calendar used by the greater Jewish population. Every year he would come up to Jerusalem with his parents to celebrate Passover on the 14th of Nisan with everyone else. Why would he decide to use the 13th of Nisan to celebrate in the year 30? That’s foul play by Gentile conspiracy.
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Could it be that Jesus, as an adult, saw the Essenes as more closely following the intent of God than the other Jews?

Could it be that Jesus knew he was going to die, so he chose a path that set him into the Essene section of town, following their calendar?

And just because you do not like the facts does not mean they are wrong. Can you disprove them? Can you point us to a site that shows this one to be wrong?
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
In fulfilling the prophesy, there was no need for it to remain the same, as it was with their fathers. I’ve told you, Christ had a desire to eat the Pasch with His Apostles and He knew what was going to happen, because of the “conspiracy” against Him. The Passover became the Lord’s Supper through His fulfillment.

Jer 31:31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It has nothing to do with Gentiles. The New Covenant made in the NT was between Paul and Christians.
 
Ben_Masada said:
The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It has nothing to do with Gentiles. The New Covenant made in the NT was between Paul and Christians.
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Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

The new covenant in the NT was between God and all people, through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

**Mat 26:26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread and blessed and broke and gave to his disciples and said: Take ye and eat. This is my body.
Mat 26:27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Mar 14:22 And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke and gave to them and said: Take ye. This is my body.
Mar 14:23 And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it.
Mar 14:24 And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.

Luk 22:17 And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks and said: Take and divide it among you.
Luk 22:18 For I say to you that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come.
Luk 22:19 And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.
Luk 22:20 In like manner, the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.**
 
ralphinal said:
Could it be that Jesus, as an adult, saw the Essenes as more closely following the intent of God than the other Jews?

Could it be that Jesus knew he was going to die, so he chose a path that set him into the Essene section of town, following their calendar?

And just because you do not like the facts does not mean they are wrong. Can you disprove them? Can you point us to a site that shows this one to be wrong?
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Too hypothetical. There is no point to discuss when one’s views are based on hypothesis.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Too hypothetical. There is no point to discuss when one’s views are based on hypothesis.
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Everything that you post is your speculation in the form of a poorly worded hypothesis. You refuse to post anything beyond your opinion or “knowledge” and have yet to ever post a site that can support your claims. Yes, what you post about Judaism as a faith is generally correct, though some Jews on here have differed. However, when it comes to historical fact or analysis, your posts leave much to be desired.

For example, according to Ben, the Gospels are wrong because Jews do not act like that.

Ben, what I have posted are possible refutations of your position. Now, can you present possible reasons that I am wrong? If so, please do. If you can point us to a website that supports you better. If you can point us to a book that would be good, too.

Otherwise, please give up on your quest to turn us from the faith. After all, if Christianity if of God, you are fighting God. IF it is not of God, it will pass with time…
 
Ben_Masada said:
Because of Israel if you read Isaiah 42:6. We have been assigned as light unto the Gentiles.
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It appears you, Jews, made that covenant void…

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
Ben_Masada said:
That’s Pauline rhetoric.
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Actually, that was Matthew, Mark and Luke that wrote those Gospels, according to what Christ had taught them, and what they witnessed.
Ben_Masada said:
Jesus missed that Passover. He was already in the tomb when his People were celebrating it.
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That’s your opinion and you’re certainly free to believe what you want, however, I believe Christ fulfilled the Passover with the Lord’s Supper, of the new covenant which was different than the covenant made with their fathers.
Ben_Masada said:
Jesus was Jewish. Therefore, he knew that’s against God’s Law for a man to die for another.
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Jesus was Jewish, but with the new covenant there was no longer Jew or Gentile.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all and in all.
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Do you really want me to tell you who is spreading lies? I will, and I can prove to you who is spreading lies but you won’t like. Some people don’t like to hear the truth.

Jesus was a Jewish man, and according to Judaism there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology. To spread around that he was son of God, without a human father, is the worst lie in the History of the world, and you are spreading it here and everywhere. Should I continue? I don’t think so. The post will be too long. The NT is loaded with them.**
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It might be convenient to simplistify it and call it “Greek Mythology”, but the gods in Greek Mythology are quite against one another and very divided. That’s one thing to remember about Greek gods! While within the Holy Trinity there is perfect accord and indeed they are one! Your simplifications are actually slightly… simplistic!
 
Ben_Masada said:
**I think I have enlightened you even more than several times on this matter. But it seems to me you are too opaque to get it.

Even if the Essenes used a different calendar, let’s say the solar calendar, the 14th of Nisan would ALWAYS fall much later and NEVER before the 14th of Nisan in the lunar calendar. Therefore, they would celebrate always after the regular Jeish population.

The blunder of the gospel writers lwas that they set Jesus with his disciples celebrating the Passover on the 13th of Nisan, and it just didn’t happen. They fabricated their own spider’s web to get stuck in it. That’s all. **
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You actually fabricated that so-called spider’s web, Spider-man! He actually celebrated it on the beginning of Passover, not before! You have made that up, or followed the cue of somebody who did! You don’t seem to care much about the Truth, Ben. God help you!
(Not to remain a false witness, but to come back to your God and give Him genuine glory…)
 
I am the author of the Essene Passover Dates webpage star.wind.mystarband.net/bib/essene_passover_dates.html

This discussion was brought to my attention, and I thought to note for the edification of all, a few overlooked points:
  1. The Hebrews did not use a strictly “lunar calender”. It was also “solar”, insofar as it was adjusted every 2 or 3 years so as to re-align the month of Nisan to that time of year when barley would begin to bud. Otherwise, had the Hebrew calendar been strictly lunar, 6 29-day months plus 6 30-day months yields a 354-day calendar year which is 11.25 days short of a 365.25-day solar year. Consequently, after about 16 years of cummulative 11-day shortfalls, the seasons as per a strictly lunar calendar would be reversed, i.e. the calendar would declare summer when the season was actually winter. To fix that, the Hebrews “intercalated” - they added months and days in a complex sequence throughout a 19-year cycle (as did the Babylonians from whom they likely learned the math) - see star.wind.mystarband.net/bib/hebrew_babylonian_intercalation.html
  2. Because of these intercalations, which periodically add a month to when the Hebrew year would start, there were times when the intercalation of a month would put Nisan 1 by the ‘computed’ calendar well after after the vernal equinox (in which years the Essenes would observe Nisan 14th before the Hebrews, e.g. A.D. 32). Other times, after a couple years of 11-day shortfalls, the ‘computed’ calendar would put Nisan 1 well before the vernal equinox (in which years the Essenes would observe Nisan 14th after the Hebrews, e.g. A.D. 34).
  3. By either calendar, the worst-case difference was about 12 days, and arguably both the Essene method of fixing Nisan 1 by the veral equinox and the Hebrew method of computing adjustments, resulted in Nisan 1 always falling (within 12 days of each other) at that time of year when “barley began to bud”, which is the only biblical admonition given (Exo 12:6, Exo 34:18, Deu 16:1). There are no other scriptural passages by which to know when a year began. Both the Essene and Hebrew calendars met those requirements (within 12 days of each other) and arguably both were scriptural.
  4. The analysis of comparing Essene passover dates to Hebrew passover did not start ‘a priori’ to fix A.D. 30 as the year of crucifixion but rather to harmonize the gospel accounts of Passion Week. In the process of that harmonization, it was realized that A.D. 30 was the only year in which harmonization was possible because only in that year did the Essene Passover fall one day before Jewish Passover. This 1 day difference was 1st suggested by the Catholic scholar Annie Jaubert, but at the time Jaubert did not have the calender computations available to us today to demonstrate a proof.
 
BibleBerean said:
I am the author of the Essene Passover Dates webpage star.wind.mystarband.net/bib/essene_passover_dates.html

This discussion was brought to my attention, and I thought to note for the edification of all, a few overlooked points:
  1. The Hebrews did not use a strictly “lunar calender”. It was also “solar”, insofar as it was adjusted every 2 or 3 years so as to re-align the month of Nisan to that time of year when barley would begin to bud. Otherwise, had the Hebrew calendar been strictly lunar, 6 29-day months plus 6 30-day months yields a 354-day calendar year which is 11.25 days short of a 365.25-day solar year. Consequently, after about 16 years of cummulative 11-day shortfalls, the seasons as per a strictly lunar calendar would be reversed, i.e. the calendar would declare summer when the season was actually winter. To fix that, the Hebrews “intercalated” - they added months and days in a complex sequence throughout a 19-year cycle (as did the Babylonians from whom they likely learned the math) - see star.wind.mystarband.net/bib/hebrew_babylonian_intercalation.html
  2. Because of these intercalations, which periodically add a month to when the Hebrew year would start, there were times when the intercalation of a month would put Nisan 1 by the ‘computed’ calendar well after after the vernal equinox (in which years the Essenes would observe Nisan 14th before the Hebrews, e.g. A.D. 32). Other times, after a couple years of 11-day shortfalls, the ‘computed’ calendar would put Nisan 1 well before the vernal equinox (in which years the Essenes would observe Nisan 14th after the Hebrews, e.g. A.D. 34).
  3. By either calendar, the worst-case difference was about 12 days, and arguably both the Essene method of fixing Nisan 1 by the veral equinox and the Hebrew method of computing adjustments, resulted in Nisan 1 always falling (within 12 days of each other) at that time of year when “barley began to bud”, which is the only biblical admonition given (Exo 12:6, Exo 34:18, Deu 16:1). There are no other scriptural passages by which to know when a year began. Both the Essene and Hebrew calendars met those requirements (within 12 days of each other) and arguably both were scriptural.
  4. The analysis of comparing Essene passover dates to Hebrew passover did not start ‘a priori’ to fix A.D. 30 as the year of crucifixion but rather to harmonize the gospel accounts of Passion Week. In the process of that harmonization, it was realized that A.D. 30 was the only year in which harmonization was possible because only in that year did the Essene Passover fall one day before Jewish Passover. This 1 day difference was 1st suggested by the Catholic scholar Annie Jaubert, but at the time Jaubert did not have the calender computations available to us today to demonstrate a proof.
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Thanks both for posting and for the website on the calendar. I found it very informative.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Behold! I finally agree with you. But of course that a former Jew can write against Judaism. A golden example we have in Paul, with his primal example of writings against Judaism. The exception is that he was never a follower of Jesus. He was a follower of himself and of his Christ, an entity he conceived in his Hellenistic mind of a former Greek Jew.
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Then why did Paul declare that He was called by Jesus? and even beheaded in the name of Jesus?

BTW, when exactly the 14 day of the month of Nissan in 2009 according to Jewish calendar? Hope that the Passover meal of yours bring you closer to God.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Jesus’ followers were called Nazarenes. And they acknowledged Jesus as a Rabbi. Since I accept 20 percent of the NT as true of Jesus or about him, all those parts where the disciples refer to Jesus as a Rabbi are true. If today other Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as a Rabbi as I do, I don’t blame them. I blame the Church for the atrocities against the Jews in the name of Jesus.
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My question was Did the Jewish leader during 30 - 33 AD believe that Jesus was a Rabbi? It is good for you to believe that Jesus is 20% correct. That means you make Jesus as 20% Rabbi. But still, the majority won. That was why Barabas was freed instead of Jesus.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Paul was never a Pharisee. His word never enjoyed credibility among real Jews. Only Gentiles believed him and perhaps because he would stand against Jews. And of the Jews who believe in him, they are of those who according to Hosea 4:6, are perishing for lack of knowledge.
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Why did Paul able to get the letter of authority from the Jewish leader before he went to Damascus?
 
Ben_Masada said:
In that case, I am sorry for the Church because of the Crusades and the Inquisition. Don’t forget that the fourth Crusade was organized by the Pope Inocense III. Read about the Jewish lives thatr Crusade took from this world.
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I disagree with the Crusaders too, Ben. That was not what Jesus has taught. I do feel sorry and have my deepest sympathy for the victims. But, I must admit that I owe those crusaders. Without them, there would be all mosques in the land of Judea, including the land you are staying now.
 
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