The Modal Ontological Argument

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Amazing how people get everything wrong! 😦
What do you mean by the ā€œinfinite past theory?ā€ Do you mean the theory that the universe could have always existed? Because my friend, St Thomas also said that it is also possible for the universe to have always existed :bigyikes:
He did not. We’ve been over this many times.

Article 1. Whether the universe of creatures always existed?
newadvent.org/summa/1046.htm#article1

**
I answer that, Nothing except God can be eternal.
**
 
Amazing how people get everything wrong! 😦

He did not. We’ve been over this many times.

Article 1. Whether the universe of creatures always existed?
newadvent.org/summa/1046.htm#article1

It has not always existed because our faith tells us so. However, in article 2, St. Thomas says that it cannot be demonstrated to have a beginning. Thus, for people without faith, the eternity of the universe is a theoretical possibility.
 
It’s not simply false. It’s simply a case of differences in definition. My statement is true if contingent referred to ā€œreal beings that can not exist at some point.ā€ Such a thing cannot be an eternal being. Likewise, an eternal being cannot not exist at some point, and therefore cannot be contingent.
Contingent is usually not used in that sense.
There is hardly any cosmologist who thinks that it is possible for literally everything to go out of existence, yet most people would consider our current universe to be contingent.
 
It has not always existed because our faith tells us so. However, in article 2, St. Thomas says that it cannot be demonstrated to have a beginning. Thus, for people without faith, the eternity of the universe is a theoretical possibility.
Only if they fail to consider that only something that is necessary and unchangeable ( immutable ) could be eternal. The universe doesn’t qualify. It changes. Every change happened a finite time ago.

This can’t be demonstrated scientifically. How would you do that? 🤷
But it makes sense if you think about it.
 
I got this PM…
But what about things like the laws of logic, and abstract objects like numbers? Wouldn’t they be eternal? :confused:
Logic and numbers fit into the same category as the ā€œthingsā€ that atheists say could have started the universe"
  1. ā€œchanceā€
  2. ā€œaccidentā€
    and
  3. ā€œquantum effectā€
Laws of logic, numbers, chance, accident, and quantum mechanics **are ways for something already in existence to behave :bigyikes: **, but they have no real existence.
 
Only if they fail to consider that only something that is necessary and unchangeable ( immutable ) could be eternal. The universe doesn’t qualify. It changes. Every change happened a finite time ago.

This can’t be demonstrated scientifically. How would you do that? 🤷
But it makes sense if you think about it.
Okay, but what I mean is that in theory, it is possible for the universe to have always existed, not that it is eternal in the same way that God is eternal.

There is a current scientific view, though, that our material universe had a beginning (around 13.8 billion years ago). This was based on the expansion rate of the universe and measurements of cosmic background radiation since the universe cooled after the Big Bang.
 
Multiverse theory and possible world semantics are not quite the same thing. There being a multiverse would not imply that God exists in some multiverse.

The premise that God exists in some possible worlds seems problematic either way. The argument is capitalizing on S5, which says that ā€œpossibly necessaryā€ is just ā€œnecessary.ā€ But then the issue is that anyone familiar with S5 will know that ā€œPossibly, God existsā€ is logically equivalent to ā€œNecessarily, God exists.ā€ So such a premise requires additional support. (Multiverse theory would not give that support.)
There’s a variant of the multiverse theory that says that it’s possible that the infinite number of possible universes actually exist. (I don’t know if it’s a famous one, but that’s what an atheist I talked to used) It’s the one used to try to refute the intelligence behind the improbable universe we are in. If all possible universes are equally realized, probability would not be an issue (every universe has a 100% chance of existing) and there would seem to be no need for an intelligence to explain what chose which possible universe gets to be realized (although I think intelligence and will is still required to realize each possibility). If that’s the case, since God is a possibility (given his existence has no inherent contradiction), then this premise would necessarily affirm the existence of God in at least one of the universes, and then necessarily in all of the universes.
 
Just saw this thread and wanted to chime in.

I’m currently slogging my way through the Critique of Pure Reason, and in it, Kant says that all ā€œlogical proofs of Godā€ ultimately come down to the ontological argument because the intuition of God relies on what he calls ā€œtranscendental theology.ā€ Not transcendental in the sense of New Agy-ness but in the sense of a priori synthetic concepts. IOW, the idea of God is baked into our experience of the world just like ideas of space, time, the good, etc.

If he’s right, then the ontological argument is, indeed, the strongest one.
 
Okay, but what I mean is that in theory, it is possible for the universe to have always existed, not that it is eternal in the same way that God is eternal.
:bigyikes:

When does an infinite past begin?
Or, if it had no beginning then God didn’t create it because it was already there.

There’s no such thing as two kinds of eternity. Only something that is necessary ( to exist ) and unchangeable ( immutable ) can be eternal, but these two things can only be said of God.
 
Originally Posted by empther
It’s always a pleasure to read Aquinas, 😃
after reading belorg. 😦
Synthesis is stimulated by antithesis. šŸ™‚

Hegel, hunh?
He made a very successful career for himself with his idea, which nobody believes today. Marx got half his idea from Hegel, and the other half, the class struggle segment, from a prominent quack sociologist.

I can’t remember learning anything on this forum. I just repeat what I learned long ago.
 
He did not. We’ve been over this many times.

Article 1. Whether the universe of creatures always existed?
newadvent.org/summa/1046.htm#article1
I don’t have the Latin in front of me. But eternal and existing at all times are not the same thing. Only God is eternal. But it is still consistent to suppose that the universe existed in an infinite past. That does not mean that the universe exists outside of time (ie. e-ternally).

I don’t think the possibility of an eternal past is obvious, but there is no trouble in granting it, as none of the Five Ways rely on it. (Some Thomists, like Alex Pruss, have given some neat arguments against the possibility. But they are marginally relevant.)
 
There’s a variant of the multiverse theory that says that it’s possible that the infinite number of possible universes actually exist. (I don’t know if it’s a famous one, but that’s what an atheist I talked to used) It’s the one used to try to refute the intelligence behind the improbable universe we are in. If all possible universes are equally realized, probability would not be an issue (every universe has a 100% chance of existing) and there would seem to be no need for an intelligence to explain what chose which possible universe gets to be realized (although I think intelligence and will is still required to realize each possibility). If that’s the case, since God is a possibility (given his existence has no inherent contradiction), then this premise would necessarily affirm the existence of God in at least one of the universes, and then necessarily in all of the universes.
But multiple universes are entirely extraneous to this sort of argument. I’ve bolded the important premise: that God is possible because his existence is consistent. If that premise is true*, then there is no reason to aver to multiple universes. The nature of possibility is such that, if it is possible that a necessary being exists, then that necessary being exists. It doesn’t have to exist in some concrete universe or other.

Again, the difference between multiple universes and possible worlds is important. There is not an accepted interpretation of possible worlds semantics. Plantinga takes a Platonist interpretation (possible worlds ā€œexistā€ in an abstract Platonic ā€œthird realmā€, while our world is the actual world). David Lewis is famous for his modal realism, in that he thought that each possible world was an actual, concrete universe, and that all possibilities are actual. Most contemporary philosophers, I think, would accept neither of them. A multiple universe hypothesis is not necessarily like either of those. One could take it that way, but just because there are infinite universes doesn’t mean, for instance, that all possibilities are actualized (ie. there doesn’t have to be an alternate universe in which yesterday you joined the circus, although there might be a ā€œpossible worldā€ in which that occurred).

*This is the question, though. A lot of philosophical arguments are based on the idea that consistent conceivability implies possibility. (For example, arguments for substance dualism based on the separability of the mind and the body.) But generally such a principle needs restrictions.

I think that in many cases our modal intuitions are simply not up to par, and we do not know enough about the ā€œoverflow necessitiesā€ of our language. A couple examples for the former and the latter:

a). Consider the laws of physics and of nature. We lack a completed physics, so we do not know how they all tie together, if they do, and in what way. We don’t know which of them could have been different (although we might have some ideas, in some places). We don’t know what would account for their being different, either. So can I say that there is a possible world with some different physical constants? I don’t know. Maybe.

b). Rubies are made of aluminum oxide. We have not known this forever. At times, rubies have been confused with other semiprecious gems like topaz. What we have meant by the word ruby was a substance made of aluminum oxide. But we did not have a sufficient theory of chemistry to realize that until recently. That rubies are a variety of aluminum oxide has always been a ā€œnecessityā€ (in the logical sense) that ā€œoverflowedā€ our linguistic usage of the term. If someone said, ā€œIn some possible world, rubies are made of quartzā€ the statement would have been false, although it did not entail a known contradiction.

I think these are good reasons for modal conservatism.
 
I think we’ve gone WAY off-topic here; I think we should start another thread (I really should have said this a while ago.)
 
I think we’ve gone WAY off-topic here; I think we should start another thread (I really should have said this a while ago.)
Maybe you should start a thread on the way Maydole defends the possibility of a perfect being.
 
I don’t have the Latin in front of me. But eternal and existing at all times are not the same thing. Only God is eternal. **But it is still consistent to suppose that the universe existed in an infinite past. **

:bigyikes: :banghead: :crying: :hypno:

I give up.
Some people just can’t see the obvious.
There can be no infinite number, amount, whatever, of anything, time, apples, Elvis fans, anything!
šŸ‘‹
 
I don’t have the Latin in front of me. But eternal and existing at all times are not the same thing. Only God is eternal. **But it is still consistent to suppose that the universe existed in an infinite past. **

:bigyikes: :banghead: :crying: :hypno:

I give up.
Some people just can’t see the obvious.
There can be no infinite number, amount, whatever, of anything, time, apples, Elvis fans, anything!
šŸ‘‹
Before I start a new thread on the stuff we’ve actual,y been talking about, I’m afraid I’ll have to stop you there; there CAN be an infinite amount of Beiber fans, and internet atheists. 😃
 
It was a fun ride, but all good things must come to an end (and if I wasn’t the one to end it, I’, sure it would have been done for me.) 😦
Here is the new thread, about St. Thomas’ Argument from Contingency. Have fun! 😃
 
:bigyikes:

When does an infinite past begin?
Or, if it had no beginning then God didn’t create it because it was already there.

There’s no such thing as two kinds of eternity. Only something that is necessary ( to exist ) and unchangeable ( immutable ) can be eternal, but these two things can only be said of God.
Having an infinite past just means that something has no beginning in terms of duration. God has an infinite past/has no beginning. So what is your problem with an infinite past? While the chain of causes should have a beginning because there must be a first cause to start everything else, the duration of a being’s existence need not have a beginning.

A universe without a beginning in duration still needs a God to explain it. Because it is being ā€œchangedā€ all the time as we can observe, something outside of it must have been changing it. It’s not that the universe had already been there and doesn’t need to be created. Remember that God has also always existed. It is possible that God had been causing the universe’s existence for all eternity.

And besides, did you read Q46, Article 2? St Thomas already says that ā€œthe world beganā€ is only an article of faith. Meaning, that the world could theoretically not have a beginning. We only hold that the world began because of faith.

St Thomas already answered your objection
Q46 article 2 Reply to Objection 1. As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xi, 4), the opinion of philosophers who asserted the eternity of the world was twofold. For some said that the substance of the world was not from God, which is an intolerable error; and therefore it is refuted by proofs that are cogent. Some, however, said that the world was eternal, although made by God. For they hold that the world has a beginning, not of time, but of creation, so that in a certain hardly intelligible way it was always made. ā€œAnd they try to explain their meaning thus (De Civ. Dei x, 31): for as, if the foot were always in the dust from eternity, there would always be a footprint which without doubt was caused by him who trod on it, so also the world always was, because its Maker always existed.ā€ To understand this we must consider that the efficient cause, which acts by motion, of necessity precedes its effect in time; because the effect is only in the end of the action, and every agent must be the principle of action. But if the action is instantaneous and not successive, it is not necessary for the maker to be prior to the thing made in duration as appears in the case of illumination. Hence they say that it does not follow necessarily if God is the active cause of the world, that He should be prior to the world in duration; because creation, by which He produced the world, is not a successive change, as was said above (Question 45, Article 2).
So he argues by ā€œinstantaneousā€ action.

Well, St Thomas did seem to speak of different/unequal kinds of eternity:

Q46, Article 2, Reply to Objection 5: Even supposing that the world always was, it would not be equal to God in eternity, as Boethius says (De Consol. v, 6); because the divine Being is all being simultaneously without succession; but with the world it is otherwise.

Which I take to mean that the world is ā€œeternal,ā€ but not in the same way that God is eternal. šŸ™‚
 
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