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LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Right. Obamacare lacks true universality to be single payer.LeafByNiggle:
No it’s not. The vast majority of Americans are not even insured under ACA. And many in the individual market pay for their own.JonNC:
That is effectively what Obamacare is now.
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Ghosty1981
Guest
Our system wouldn’t have to be set up exactly like France’s. We also wouldn’t be under the outside budget restrictions imposed by the EU. Keep in mind also that the U.S. government already spends a larger percentage of its GDP on healthcare than France, for less coverage and benefits to the people.
Regardless, I’m not interested in budget concerns here, but rather the morality of a single-payer system. The money issue is an important, but distinct, question.
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Correct, and it is still an unmitigated disaster that has driven healthcare prices up, forced people out of plans they liked, and tried to force people of faith to violate their religious free exercise rights.JonNC:
Right. Obamacare lacks true universality to be single payer.LeafByNiggle:
No it’s not. The vast majority of Americans are not even insured under ACA. And many in the individual market pay for their own.JonNC:
That is effectively what Obamacare is now.
Imagine how bad government authoritarian single payer would be.
I think there is a morality question regarding redistributive taxation, but as long as government is in the position to dictate what is and isn’t covered (abortifacients, etc), who gets care and when, morality is not possible
I will put my coverage and care up against any government controlled system.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Throwing the word “authoritarian” in at every government action you don’t like is a sure way to prove it is bad.
The reason Obamacare is ineffective is precisely because it is a Frankenstein marriage of government-funded health care and private insurance. I am not surprised that it is having difficulty. What this proves is that we need to have actual single payer insurance, not this inbetween system that does neither well.
In any case, we are getting off the topic of this thread, which is the morality of a single payer health system. Note that morality is not tied to inefficiency or ineffectiveness. Those things, by themselves, do not make a system immoral.
As soon as government has authority over it, it is authoritarian.Throwing the word “authoritarian” in at every government action you don’t like is a sure way to prove it is bad.
It proves that government interference with the right to healthcare doesn’t work. What we need is a market based system that includes a healthy and robust charitable system to help those in need
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DarkLight
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Can you name one time in history when that has actually existed?
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DarkLight
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We did. People died.
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o_mlly
Guest
If so then the scheme is not “single payer” and the result would be two-tier system: the wealthy who can afford private pay or private insurance and the rest of us. Is not that exactly what “single payer” advocates are trying to eliminate?
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MonteRCMS
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Free and voluntary association … guaranteed by the Constitution … and people will figure out an optimum non-bureaucratic system of medical cost insurance.
For example: http://www.solidarityhealthshare.org
For example: http://selfpaypatient.com/2016/09/20/a-new-catholic-sharing-ministry/
We already had that when Senator Teddy Kennedy, RIP, Democrat, declared it illegal.
HSA + catastrophic + interstate purchasing = the lowest cost, highest quality medical insurance coverage.
Get rid of the bureaucrats.
AND, if people with chronic major conditions need financial assistance, then use the Form 1040 MED following the same formula as already in place for low income people, the Earned income Tax Credit.
The Form 1040 MED can be filled out by the hospital or other medical provider; the IRS already has the necessary information on the person’s income to calculate the payment to the hospital or other provider and to send the payment immediately.
For example: http://www.solidarityhealthshare.org
For example: http://selfpaypatient.com/2016/09/20/a-new-catholic-sharing-ministry/
We already had that when Senator Teddy Kennedy, RIP, Democrat, declared it illegal.
HSA + catastrophic + interstate purchasing = the lowest cost, highest quality medical insurance coverage.
Get rid of the bureaucrats.
AND, if people with chronic major conditions need financial assistance, then use the Form 1040 MED following the same formula as already in place for low income people, the Earned income Tax Credit.
The Form 1040 MED can be filled out by the hospital or other medical provider; the IRS already has the necessary information on the person’s income to calculate the payment to the hospital or other provider and to send the payment immediately.
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Two points about this.JonNC:
We did. People died.
- I find this to be a horrendous accusation against the American people, this charge that if government doesn’t take care of people it won’t happen. The accusation is that the American people don’t care about their neighbors, that they have to be forced to take care of their neighbors st the point of the government gun. It says that even those calling for single payer will turn their backs on people in need
- the vast majority of the American people DO NOT need assistance in their healthcare. Even if it is appropriate for government to provide a safety net, that is the maximum it should do. There is no reason to compromise all Americans right to healthcare by converting it intravenous government power.
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LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
It is better to have a two tier system where everyone at least has a tier to stand on, versus a system where some have no health care at all. I see nothing wrong with a two or three tier system, as long as each tier has a basic minimum catastrophic health insurance.stinkcat_14:
If so then the scheme is not “single payer” and the result would be two-tier system: the wealthy who can afford private pay or private insurance and the rest of us. Is not that exactly what “single payer” advocates are trying to eliminate?
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LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Say rather that the American people are sometimes unable to take care of their neighbors. If you found out that one of your neighbors needed a heart-lung transplant that costs 1.1 million, even with the best of intentions I doubt that you and your neighbors could raise that much in donations.DarkLight:
Two points about this.JonNC:
We did. People died.
- I find this to be a horrendous accusation against the American people, this charge that if government doesn’t take care of people it won’t happen. The accusation is that the American people don’t care about their neighbors…
Ideally, the government is an expression of the will of the people they represent. So in effect it is how Americans take care of their neighbors. Besides, there is nothing inherently immoral about a legitimate authority enforcing the will of the people. It is, according to the Catechism, a proper function of government. If we stop all government mandates then the government would be reduced to politely asking people to pay their taxes with no consequences if they don’t, and politely asking criminals to stop engaging in criminal behavior with no consequences if they refuse.
This is a silly reason not to offer health insurance. The whole concept of insurance is built on charging everyone for what only a few will ultimately need. If we had insurance for things that everyone needs, it would not be insurance.
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I stand by what I said. It is a charge that Americans would intentionally turn their Backs on neighbors.
If. Government was not taking so much money in taxes, more money would be available. As has been said, we already spend great amounts on healthcare. Large private associations and charities such as the Church would help.
The vast amount of Americans don’t need help, and shouldn’t have their right to healthcare taken from them
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o_mlly
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Isn’t, therefore, the argument for a “single payer” system an overreach since a public option and expanded Medicaid would meet the need for everyone to have catastrophic health insurance?
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Theo520
Guest
It’s the money, you still need all the healthy people to pitch in any pay for it.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
Everyone dies, Darklight. But do you want a system that works for most people or a select minority?
Because those are the options here on earth.
Because those are the options here on earth.
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