The morally emasculated: Death for Death Penalty Opponents

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vern humphrey:
The great injustice of the death penalty is that it is used so seldom and after such a long delay.
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Vern, you slander yourself.
 
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ansel123:
You are misrepresenting the position Catholics can take. There are TWO options only. Catholics can be completely against the death penalty or we can support the death penalty in exceptional cases. With 3,500 people on death row, the U.S. is hardly sentencing people to death “rarely” as the Catechism requires. As I quoted and documented above, Pope Benedict (as Cardinal Ratzinger) said it would be** practically impossible** to impose the death penalty in the Western world using the objective criteria set out in the Catechism and in Evangelium Vitae. So there isn’t an acceptable diversity of positions - either you oppose it entirely or you oppose it in almost all cases, recognizing the possibility of an almost non-existent case where it can be imposed.

The “kill 'em all” position is contrary to the Church’s teaching and against the Church’s respect for life.
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Don’t you mean America?

Also, death penalties, according to Amnesty Int. costs much MORE than a life sentance. Where’ll they get the money to fiance such death sessions? If that carries on like that, no one on death will ever get a chance to repent, they’ll just be in hell. And they say never wish anyone to Hell, much less rejoice in anyone dying.
 
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pnewton:
While I can agree with the criteria laid out in the CCC and EV that the death penalty should be rare, I do believe that those in the Church who would state that the Western prison systems are an adequate alternative are correct. The Catechism lays the burden of protecting the citizenry, and thus the responsibility for making proper decisions, on the secular government.

This is the same issue when implementing a just war theory. The Church lays out the moral principles and does so authoritatively. It does not provide police protection or scientific analysis. I was unaware that the Church had a criminology department (however, I would not be surprised if they did).
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Don’t you mean the American prison systems?
 
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777:
Don’t you mean America?

Also, death penalties, according to Amnesty Int. costs much MORE than a life sentance. Where’ll they get the money to fiance such death sessions? If that carries on like that, no one on death will ever get a chance to repent, they’ll just be in hell. And they say never wish anyone to Hell, much less rejoice in anyone dying.
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I guess by Western I meant developed countries as a few still have the death penalty. Israel and Mexico have the death penalty for very extraordinary cases. Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea also have the death penalty and its usage is similar to the U.S.'s.
 
If you all want all killers to truly feel the repercussions for their crimes, then fire all the death row chaplins out of there and prevent all death row inmates from ever rpenting. Presto, they all head stright to hell after they die. from their death sessions.
 
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Peter_Atlanta:
Life is God’s to give and God’s to take.
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Depending on how you mean this, it is either not true, or not pertinent. God has at times delegated the taking of life, allowed teh taking of life and even ordered the taking of life, all at the hands of human beings.
 
I agree that the church leaves this question somewhat open. I evolved from pro-death penalty in exceptionally heinous cases to the belief that it is inconsistent with the whole of the church’s teachings. For what it’s worth, I am a prosecutor and hardly a liberal. I might *want *the death penalty, emotionally, but I still believe it is wrong. Life without parole is, to me, the acceptable option. And after 15 years as a prosecutor, I’ve seen many, many heinous things.
 
According to Jewish law circa 33 AD, adultery was punishable by death.
 
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ansel123:
You are misrepresenting the position Catholics can take. There are TWO options only. Catholics can be completely against the death penalty or we can support the death penalty in exceptional cases. With 3,500 people on death row, the U.S. is hardly sentencing people to death “rarely” as the Catechism requires…
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Having 3500 people on death row would qualify as rare considering the huge size of this country and the number of capital crimes committed. How many capital crimes result in a death sentences? How many death sentences are actually carried out? We have a couple hundred capital crimes a year in this state but as I mentioned there has been exactly ONE person executed in the past two decades.

Consider that the AVERAGE timespan on death row is over 20 years while various appeals take place. Many sentences are commuted to life without parole. So that 3500 results from literally decades of crimes since these people LIVE a long time in prison before they face their sentence, if EVER. So I do think this punishment would qualify as rare.

OTOH I don’t think that our society applies the death penalty only in the extreme cases that would be allowed by the Catholic church. An example is Scott Peterson. He committed a particularly disgraceful, disgusting and evil murder. His own wife and child? Can’t get much worse than that. OTOH the man is hardly a danger to society and frankly I think he’s more likely to be killed in prison than ever face execution.

So while I wouldn’t want the death penalty abolished entirely, I do wish we could use the Catholic standard for its application rather than our rather retribution oriented model.
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ansel123:
As I quoted and documented above, Pope Benedict (as Cardinal Ratzinger) said it would be** practically impossible** to impose the death penalty in the Western world using the objective criteria set out in the Catechism and in Evangelium Vitae. So there isn’t an acceptable diversity of positions - either you oppose it entirely or you oppose it in almost all cases, recognizing the possibility of an almost non-existent case where it can be imposed.

The “kill 'em all” position is contrary to the Church’s teaching and against the Church’s respect for life.
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You know I can follow your first paragraph, nodding in agreement but when you go off the deep end with a rather outrageous statement 'kill ‘em all’ when the evidence is obvious that the death penalty is VERY VERY VERY rarely practiced, it detracts from your rational and reasonable statement above. Even those on this list who are more supportive of the death penalty would hardly stoop to the 'kill ‘em all’ sentiment.

Lisa N
 
I think this from our Holy Father sort of puts an end to the discussion as to whether or not a Catholic can support capital punishment.

You can find this here, Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion. General Principles, it is at the Priests for Life website.

Bold emphasis added.

*Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
*
 
“Many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death in the name of justice fearing for you own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.”
-Gandalf
-J.R.R. Tolkein
 
😃
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ByzCath:
I think this from our Holy Father sort of puts an end to the discussion as to whether or not a Catholic can support capital punishment.

You can find this here, Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion. General Principles, it is at the Priests for Life website.

While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty,
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I heard Jimmy Akin say the same thing, so Pope Benedict **must **be right.

(in case someone takes me seriously,…😃 )
 
vern humphrey:
Well, if you’re comfortable with lying, that’s all that counts, right?
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That is hardly fair. I chose to characterize what you have been saying in a certain way that I think is correct. You can choose to rebut it.

In my last post, I quoted you directly, where you said that the the “great injustice of the death penalty is that it is used so seldom and after such a long delay.” I will let these words of your speak for themselves.
 
Lisa N:
You know I can follow your first paragraph, nodding in agreement but when you go off the deep end with a rather outrageous statement 'kill ‘em all’ when the evidence is obvious that the death penalty is VERY VERY VERY rarely practiced, it detracts from your rational and reasonable statement above. Even those on this list who are more supportive of the death penalty would hardly stoop to the 'kill ‘em all’ sentiment.
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The “kill 'em all” paragraph is not connected to the first. It was a reply to a separate issue being discussed amongst a few posters.

And furthermore, the evidence isn;t obvious that the death penalty is very very very rarely practiced. The Pope said that the criteria are practically impossible to meet and that is hardly the case in the U.S. justice system.
 
My sister was murdered in 1965 when she was 19. She was stabbed to death by a guy who spent most of his childhood and adult years in prison. He was on parole for burning down an elementary school at the time. He was robbing employee lockers at a popular college hangout - The College Inn (most recently The Purple Porpoise) - when she walked out of the ladies’ room and surprised him. She lived long enough to give the police a description of him that resulted in his capture. She was a sweet, loving girl who was devoutly Catholic and loved Jesus.

I was 5 years old at the time of her murder and was very close to her. Needless to say, it devastated my parents, my sister and four brothers, one of which was attending UF at the time and was having dinner with her when it happened. As a result of this, I grew up as a young child terrified of being left alone and afraid I was going to be killed.

The prosecuter was afraid that if they went for 1st degree murder, he might walk, so they tried and convicted him of 2nd degree murder. He spent 10 years in jail and we were informed of his release (on good behavior) by a Gainesville Sun reporter who called and asked my mother, “How do you feel about your daugher’s murderer being released?” I still carry her photo in my wallet.

Given all that, I am not a proponent of the death penalty. If given the opportunity to pull the switch on this guy, I would not and could not. I wouldn’t want the fate of his soul on my conscience. And, I wouldn’t want someone else to do it for me. I would, however, have preferred that he stayed in jail until he died. I did hear through a piece in the UF newspaper that he had died in recent years. I’d be willing to bet that his life was not a happy one, but I take no joy in that either.

At the risk of sounding overly pious, I genuinely hope this guy is in heaven. God gave me the grace to forgive him; something I could not have done on my own. Losing my sister was tragic and it was a defining event in the life of my family. However, I don’t see that killing this guy would have done anything for any of us other than satisfy some need for revenge, especially if he went unrepented to hell. It would have been an empty revenge. On the other hand, if this guy repented and is in heaven, I see my sweet sister as forgiving him like Christ forgave his own murderers.

Our sense of justice is not like God’s. I know Christians who are bothered by the possibility that the Ted Bundys of the world might have repented and been shown mercy. “How could that scum make it into heaven while so many good people don’t?” God’s mercy and God’s justice are a mystery to me, but I know that they are perfect. I’m just thankful that He’s willing to show me mercy and my sister.
 
Sorry for the 30 Number. Thought it was executions in 2004, but was combined with those pending. Was confused by my information. (TX stat was from a different forum) Those killed in OH in 2004 were:
Lewis Williams Jr. Jan. 14, 2004
John Glen Roe Feb. 1, 2004
Billy Wickline March 30, 2004
William Zuern June 8, 2004
Stephen Vrabel July 14, 2004
Scott Mink July 20, 2004
Adremy Dennis Oct. 13, 2004.

I know for sure of one so far in 2005.
William Smith March 8, 2005

The problem is the escalating numbers. If the 16 executions in OH since 1977 number is correct according to a previous post, 15 of them have been in the last 6 years. 1999-1, 2001-1, 2002-3, 2003-3, 2004- 7. Does anyone else see a trend? And if this punishment is so great for deterring crime, why has that number gone up so drastically? The fact remains that the death penalty is not effective, regardless of my clerical error. 😦
I’d much rather see jails like the one mentioned in Arizona. Tents, utilitarian meals and hard work, no cushy couches to watch t.v. and big libraries and internet access paid for by our taxes. The worst offenders need the strictest constraints.
By the way, I haven’t seen the mention of a case where someone commits a crime specifically for the purpose of being put to death. It has happened. These people waive their appeals so as to get going faster. They either do not want to live with what they did, or they planned to die from the start. So now, in some cases, it could be said that we are helping people commit suicide by having the death penalty.

JimO, I don’t know what to say. You are an inspiration to the rest of us in Christian forgiveness. I would hope that I could find the grace you have if I ever had to experience such a tragedy. :getholy: You truly must be blessed.
 
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ansel123:
That is hardly fair. I chose to characterize what you have been saying in a certain way that I think is correct. You can choose to rebut it…
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When a person says something that is incorrect, they may be mistaken. When they have been corrected (and not only by me) and they continue to say it, it’s reasonable to say they are knowingly saying what is false.

Now, we have a name for knowingly saying what is false.
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ansel123:
In my last post, I quoted you directly, where you said that the the “great injustice of the death penalty is that it is used so seldom and after such a long delay.” I will let these words of your speak for themselves.
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Obviously you have not looked at the issue of justice – when we have many people who are given a certain penalty, and only a few actually receive it, that is an injustice - both to the public and to those who are actually executed/. When people sit on death row for decades, that is an injustice.

While the death penalty should be rare, those who legitimately deserve it should all get it, and within a reasonable time of the sentence being pronounced.
 
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