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jane_doe
Guest
So how does this work with LW7’s statement that “God is not all of a sudden going to come up with new commandments or new sacraments”?
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JMM1957
Guest
Let’s start with the basics, Jesus founded a Church (Matt. 16-18), the first members of this Church were his closest disciples. Before Jesus died, he promised to send the HS, to do what? "However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come (John 16:13). And later, “Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God,** the pillar and foundation of the truth.”**
It’s crystal clear, God promised to guide the Church to all Truth. You could not be more incorrect about your statement above.
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TOmNossor
Guest
LivingWaters7,
I decided to go back to the last time we went round and round about this.* I do not now remember what I said that caused me to apologize, but I do remember thinking that I said at least something I should not have said and was sorry for saying it.* In that spirit, I completed my statements with this post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12853430&postcount=183
I think this is a good addition to our discussion.* Feeling slightly more ornery than I did when I made that post AND seeing in some of my previous posts here something worth mentioning, let me add:
When I say:
“And is mitigated by the clear (Catholic) teaching that the Holy Spirit still guides the church towards all truth,” can be qualified by the expression that this “guiding” is construed as a negative protection from speaking error, not as a positive inspiration or directing.* Truth for the Catholic leader to be presented to the entire church is found via study and pondering, not via positive inspiration from God.
Anyway, whenever I read what you write, I think you are advocating that Catholic believe that ECs and/or the Pope receive revelation/inspiration for the purpose of guiding the church to all truth in some way very similar to the way that LDS believe the President and the Qof12 receive revelation/inspiration for the purpose of guiding the church.* I do not think that is close to correct and I believe the LDS concept is close to the concept LDS and Catholic believe was active in the lives of the Twelve headed by Peter.
Charity, TOm
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Does it matter?
If I pray in my personal prayer, “Lord, lead me to truth”, or “Lord, protect me from what is false”, do you think one or the other tricks God into providing something different?
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JMM1957
Guest
Unless I am misunderstanding, you think one type of revelation is superior to the other here? If yes, then why? If no, then what’s your point?
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Marie5890
Guest
Of course we do.
Two examples off the top of my head about two modern day Catholics, who are viewed as prophets, are Paul VI and Fulton Sheen.
They both clearly spoke to the whole world. But the world hasn’t listened, nor does most of the world even know much about them, especially as we are now in the 21st century.
But anyone who is aware of their teachings, knows that these two men were prophets, besides being priests, bishops, and in the case of Paul Vi, Pontiff.
Like LW has said, the Catholic term of “public revelation” is very specific in it’s meaning. But that meaning doesn’t mean that the Heavens are close and that God doesn’t speak to the whole world thru His Church.
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jane_doe
Guest
Catholicism is confusing
…Would you mind linking stuff about these two individuals?
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jane_doe
Guest
Another question about Catholic beliefs:
So I’m hearing that Catholics define “public revelation” as “revelation essential to salvation”, and that stopped at the end of the Apostolic era. No more. And papal infallibility/ Councils don’t count as public revelation. (Please correct me in the highly probable event I’m getting this wrong).
Do Catholics believe that a proper understanding of the Trinity is required for salvation?
So I’m hearing that Catholics define “public revelation” as “revelation essential to salvation”, and that stopped at the end of the Apostolic era. No more. And papal infallibility/ Councils don’t count as public revelation. (Please correct me in the highly probable event I’m getting this wrong).
Do Catholics believe that a proper understanding of the Trinity is required for salvation?
Stephen168
New member
Yes, Mormons are hypocrites on this subject also.
Christian Creed bad
Mormon Creed good.
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JMM1957
Guest
Hi jane,**Catholicism is confusing **
Would you mind linking stuff about these two individuals?
Why do you say that? You say you are here to learn more about the Catholic Church, so I understand that to mean you maybe don’t know many Catholics personally in your life, or haven’t had the opportunity to talk about God and spiritual things with them until you came on the forum. If you have been a LDS your whole life (I don’t know) your mindset on spiritual things is geared toward the LDS view obviously, so suddenly now, you put yourself into a Catholic forum where you don’t really have the chance to get a basic foundation built up in the knowledge of Catholic theology before you enter into discussions about serious Catholic doctrine and teachings with knowledgeable Catholics. I can see where it probably is difficult and confusing for you. But, I can say the same thing about LDS, some of your beliefs are unusual and puzzling also to me.
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Marie5890
Guest
It’s not really all the confusing. Remember, you are trying to understand it from your Mormon prism and Mormon definitions, so that is why you are confused. From the Catholic prism, there is no confusion.Catholicism is confusing
Would you mind linking stuff about these two individuals?
I don’t have the time right now to posts some links, but if you were to google “Paul VI prophet” or “fulton Sheen prophet” Im sure you would have a good starting point.
Remember, Mormons view of “apostle/prophet” as an “office of the Melchizedek priesthood”. That sort of understanding does not exist in Catholicism. A person does not need to have received the sacrament of Holy Orders (deacon priest or episcopate) to be a prophet or an apostle etc. According to Ephesians, those are gifts, not levels of ordination.
Edit to add: One thing that may be helpful for you, Jane, is to understand that traditional Christians (IE Trinitarian), are comfortable with accepting that God is a Mystery. We don’t feel a need to “have to understand” and “have everything defined” in such a way that our finite minds can grasp.
We are mere creatures with finite minds. God is Creator and Infinite. So above us that we will never fully understand. And we are OK with that. We are OK with Mystery.
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Marie5890
Guest
There is a legend about St Augustine and his attempt to understand the Trinity. It goes like this
“The scene is the seashore, where there is a small pool, a little boy with a seashell, and a sandy beach on which St. Augustine , clad in his episcopal robes, is walking, pondering with difficulty the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity. “Father, Son, Holy Spirit; three in one!” he muttered, shaking his head.
As he approached the little boy who was running back and forth between the sea and the pool with a seashell of water, Augustine craned his neck and asked him: “Son, what are you doing?”
“Can’t you see?” said the boy. “I’m emptying the sea into this pool!”
“Son, you can’t do that!” Augustine countered. “I will sooner empty the sea into this pool than you will manage to get the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity into your head!”
Upon saying that, the boy, who was an angel according to legend, quickly disappeared, leaving Augustine alone with the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity.”
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Marie5890
Guest
Exactly. It always helps to understand where we, as individuals, are coming from when we are trying to understand something foreign to us. Theology or otherwise.
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jane_doe
Guest
Honestly, because I find Catholicism to be very confusing. It is very intricate, very terminology heavy, and wants you to follow a very certain thought path with is an illogical path to me. This last page would be a good example that.
I mean no offense by any of this, and realize that other people can find my faith equally confusing. I’ve studied lots of faiths (this is a hobby of mine), and am used to facing difference there and learning new ways of thinking. But Catholicism is… extra time required. I spent about 11 months in thorough study, and still come back to it occasionally.
Growing up I had lots of Catholic friends and have attended many many Catholic events. However, nowadays I only know some Catholics from a distance, so not close enough to ask a million questions. And when I do ask some questions, I seemingly get very contradictory responses… Anyway, hence my original coming to the forum
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jane_doe
Guest
Actually it’s quite the opposite situation I find myself in: Catholicism seemingly is very-anti-mystery and instead likes to define every thing. This generates a very long Catholic-specific jargon, which makes interfaith understanding hard.
Or at least that’s my experience, obviously other people’s experiences will vary.
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Marie5890
Guest
Im curious, which ones?
The reason I ask this is because it was brought to my attention fairly recently that many of the thousands of different Christian denominations have their founding here in American, but many of the older ones do not because of state sponsored faiths in Europe over the centuries (i.e. Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterianism etc). I personally found this enlightening.
I do understand what you mean about all the terminology. The Latin Church, too, does seem to have this need to define everything, but then over the millennia, there have been many heresies it needed to address.
My own spirituality is much more reflective of Orthodoxy because it doesn’t have that need to delineate everything. It seems to be more comfortable with Mystery without having to understand.every.little.thing.
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Marie5890
Guest
Yes, compared to Orthodoxy, you are right.
I guess when it comes to the Trinity is what I was getting at.
The Mystery of the Trinity is something Catholics don’t worry about.
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jane_doe
Guest
To name a few: LDS, Muslim, CoC, Lutheran, JW, Methodist, conservative Baptist, mainstream Evangelical, Catholic, generic non-denom, Anglican, liberal Jew.
i get what you mean. I find Byzantine Catholicism to be far more approachable than Roman. Orthodox is one faith I’ve not had much opportunity to study-- they are very scare in my part of the world.My own spirituality is much more reflective of Orthodoxy because it doesn’t have that need to delineate everything. It seems to be more comfortable with Mystery without having to understand.every.little.thing.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
I’m not talking about what you’re concerned with. I’m talking about what Catholics believe about “Public Revelation”, which is what we’re talking about, right?
Here’s what I said, to which you were responding:
"God is not all of a sudden going to come up with new commandments or new sacraments that are required for salvation,"
Catholics do not believe that marriage is required for salvation, so I’m not sure of its relevance to what I said.
Perhaps you can start with the Second Vatican Council.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
That should talk some time to read.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Without even entertaining the date he gave (suffice it to say that Catholics believe that Marriage as a sacrament is Biblical and is part of the New Testament Church, which is the Catholic Church), you are cutting out part of my words, as I mentioned. I said:
"God is not all of a sudden going to come up with new commandments or new sacraments that are required for salvation,"
So, even if we entertain that marriage was established as a sacrament at the date given (which is an idea that I do not entertain), it still would not conflict with what I said, because I specifically and deliberately stated that God isn’t going to come up with new commandments or new sacraments required for salvation. Catholics don’t believe marriage is required for salvation.
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