The Mormon View of Jesus Christ

[RebeccaJ]

If we add on top of this the national statistics of Utah as compared to the rest of the nation we gain even greater fruits to compare.

Shall we discuss the “greater fruit” of higher rates of suicide, drug abuse and depression in Utah?

I believe family is the most important entity in the kingdom of God, and that through our love and faithfulness to the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel we can return to our Father in Heaven and be together as families in the eternities.

Please back this up with teachings from the Old or New Testament. And also explain how the greatest commandment of “love your neighbor as yourself”, as taught by Jesus Christ, is less important than family.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The results of both of these studies can be found at studychristianity.com/fruits_of_faith.html.

This domain is owned by a person in Provo UT and is obviously ran by Mormons. What’s the deal eshuster. lol.

Why?

Why are Catholics showing such weak numbers in these studies?

Because you are using a Mormon source which notably, aren’t generally favorable towards anyone but themselves. Most especially Catholics. You know, the fruit of “tooting ones own horn”, aka, pride.

I’m sure the studies that paint Mormonism in a less favorable light are so included.

You’re killing me here. lol

 

[RebeccaJ]

Now that’s out of the way, maybe eshuster would like to get back to answering the errors of Catholic doctrine in his book. Maybe, since his book is a item for public consumption, he could answer the questions publicly, and not hide behind, “I’ll get to you in a private email”.

By their fruit, indeed.

 

[SirThomasMore]

My dear friends. Thank you for conversing with me in this forum. I had no intentions of being here as long as I did as I have never found such interactions to be productive.

Meaning you can;t defend what is indefensible, so it is best to cut and run

They serve mainly for people to prove they are right and to accuse others who do not share their belief to be wrong. It is the nature of forums and it is not likely to change into the foreseeable future. I can spend hours answering each of you, but I don’t believe it will make a bit of difference for me to do so. I find my time better spent in ministering to others one on one or writing more books to help others understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I pray that your future books are mnore accurate and honest than the one I read

Thanks to the many who sent me personal forum messages and sought me out on the web to send me email. Your inquiries are appreciated and hopefully we can continue our correspondence in a less distracting environment. I will try to answer you as I can – be patient. There is much to learn and we have time to do it.

Usually, people who post that they have heave had emails of support have not had those emails, they simply need to appear as i9f they have had an impact before they run

If there was a bottom line to all of this it would be to ask yourself what is the real purpose of a church and what should be the result of following true doctrine in Jesus Christ? Christ said by their fruits ye shall know them (speaking of prophets), but we can assume such an admonition can extend to the people of a particular faith community as well.

Based on the quotes we have posted from Joe, BY, Peterson, McKoinkie, etc., I would say the fruits of your CoLDS is not from God

However, we can look at quantitative data as being a leading indicator of how faithful a Church’s people are; how well the doctrines they believe are bearing fruit; and the effectiveness of the Church’s leaders in inspiring their people.

Ah, so YOU choose the method of how to determine. Seems awfully self-serving. But, using your test, James Jones would be a winner…right? Mohammed seems to inspire…no, your test fails

For this we turn to the National Survey of Youth and Religion (NSYR), 2002-2003 from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and a Barna Group study in 2000/2001 which probed theological beliefs among adults in the US.

lol…I love it when people have lost their argument, so they search for statistics. Truly educated people refrain from using statistics because they know poills can be manipulated. I can find polls that show the LDS Church to be a horrible church with high suicide and drug use. But so what?

Folks – these results are hard data.

no. They are not. If we want to get into a battle of statistics, we can…the LDS Church, according to statisitcs, has a higher rate of suicide and drug use. Why?

There is no interpretation of scriptures here, not arguing about which religion is true or not; this data is plain and simple and does not lie.
By their fruits ye will know them. This is walking the walk, not just talking the talk.
This is why I didn’t run from Catholicism, I ran to Mormonism. I ran to a denomination of Christianity that is bearing fruit like no other Christian Church is today. Please excuse this appearance of boasting, but I am trying to get a point across.

You ran from truth to a church that was designed by a spirit other than God. If that is worth boasting about, then boast away

[/QUOTE]

 

[SirThomasMore]

My testimony as a parting thought:

I am a Christian.

 

[KathleenGee]

One thing he is right on is the Catholic schools not being the place to raise your kids in the faith.

I spoke earlier of that old pastor. He had a degree in business and had a later vocation in life. He made sure that our tuition was about $1000 a year…and that any parish family could afford to go there…you could have a very large family and would only pay up to that amount. The women’s guild worked very hard to raise tuition funding.

The neighborhood consisted of mainly working class family homes, small 2 to 3 bedrooms…and the school was number one academically in the entire archdiocese of Seattle. Father allowed school to start at 8:40 am so if people wanted to, they could go to Mass. Everyday there were close to 200 grade school students along with parents and other adults. Religion was the top priority. The school children were well behaved and there was so much peace in the school. The kids only had a swingset, balls, ropes, monkey bars.

But the other Catholic schools seemed more active and not having their face focused as much. My daughter to this day, age 30, considered that school having the best environment.

You have to teach religion that is age appropriate. But freshmen and sophomore teens see things in black and white. This is wrong…this is right. Well the religious educators have been so concerned about the Catholic teens becoming fundamentalist and judging other non-Catholics in a superior way, that they work against the teens’ emotional needs to have a secure moral system that they teach too much in an intellectual, relative way…the kids then don’t have the ability to develop convictions of right and wrong…just be nice…we are all equal…and they drift away and lose their faith…that is what happened to kids when they got older and left that little parochial school in Seattle.

 

[shagenbarth]

Really. Catholics outnumber them probably like 100 to one. It’s not like they affect us in our daily lives.

But, to the guy before the guy I’m quoting, you’re right. Jesus affirmed that his Church would survive. Why would he come back in like the 1800’s and tell this guy that he’s restoring his “original” church (and historical evidence proves that early Christians didn’t believe in any of this mormon nonesense) that he had PROMISED would survive? Is it like a mini 2nd coming?

Lol.

-Snakemauler

In actuality, the Mormon church is one of the fastest growing churches in the world. They actively send out young “missionaries” all over the world and “baptize” thousands every year. Check your facts. There’s reason to be concerned…especially in Latin America, a place traditionally Catholic. People are duped into a misunderstanding of scripture largely because they are ignorant of what the Bible says. Plus, the Mormon church hides away their very strange beliefs and “theology” until a person is “baptized” into their church. Their reasoning is that only a person who has the “Holy Ghost” is able to fully understand these “doctrines.” And, only those of the Mormon church are able to have the “Holy Ghost.” So, when you become a Mormon, you’re taught these other dogmas. Really? Like we can become gods of our own planets too? Really, like, god was just an ordinary man like me on some other planet in the universe? It seems laughable, but these missionaries are very good at what they do. The fact is, when we say “Jesus” and they say “Jesus” we are talking about two very different beings. We don’t speak the same language, have the same vocabulary, or have the same understanding of scripture, and yet, they are leading countless others into darkness…

 

[stormy99]

But the DNA test show the people in the Americas not genetically linked to the people that were cited in the Book of Mormon…science says no…no scattering of tribes.m,no visits of Jesus to the Americas to teach non existant scattered tribes.

stormy

 

[Returning_Home]

In actuality, the Mormon church is one of the fastest growing churches in the world. They actively send out young “missionaries” all over the world and “baptize” thousands every year. Check your facts. There’s reason to be concerned…especially in Latin America, a place traditionally Catholic.

Yes, they are growing, but at what rate, we don’t really know. They have a problem with retaining those converts, however, and the numbers they issue are known to include the dead, inactive, and even former members.

And just because they’re growing fast, doesn’t, of course, mean that they’re right. Islam is growing even faster, and they’re about as Christian as Mormons.

People are duped into a misunderstanding of scripture largely because they are ignorant of what the Bible says. Plus, the Mormon church hides away their very strange beliefs and “theology” until a person is “baptized” into their church. Their reasoning is that only a person who has the “Holy Ghost” is able to fully understand these “doctrines.” And, only those of the Mormon church are able to have the “Holy Ghost.” So, when you become a Mormon, you’re taught these other dogmas. Really? Like we can become gods of our own planets too? Really, like, god was just an ordinary man like me on some other planet in the universe? It seems laughable, but these missionaries are very good at what they do. The fact is, when we say “Jesus” and they say “Jesus” we are talking about two very different beings. We don’t speak the same language, have the same vocabulary, or have the same understanding of scripture, and yet, they are leading countless others into darkness…

This is the ‘milk before meat’ approach, giving the standard Christian terminology with their unique meanings attached, but it can sometimes be years before new converts are indoctrinated with the truly troubling parts of Mormonism.

Yes, some apologists, when cornered will simply resort to the *you just don’t understand *defense because it requires no proof at all and it allows them to continue believing in a false gospel with no Biblical merit.

The Mormon jesus (small j) is just a sideshow barker for exaltation, not to mention the product of incest. He’s a weak little god who makes mistakes and doesn’t know the Bible (3 Nephi 20:23-25, he assigns the words of Luke to Moses, see Acts 3:22-23 and Deut 18:15).

Luckily, however, that’s not our Jesus, the only way to salvation and eternal life.

Speak the truth about Mormonism and contrast it with the real Jesus Christ Almighty; that’s the Lord’s work.

 

[dianaiad]

In actuality, the Mormon church is one of the fastest growing churches in the world. They actively send out young “missionaries” all over the world and “baptize” thousands every year. Check your facts. There’s reason to be concerned…especially in Latin America, a place traditionally Catholic. People are duped into a misunderstanding of scripture largely because they are ignorant of what the Bible says. Plus, the Mormon church hides away their very strange beliefs and “theology” until a person is “baptized” into their church. Their reasoning is that only a person who has the “Holy Ghost” is able to fully understand these “doctrines.” And, only those of the Mormon church are able to have the “Holy Ghost.” So, when you become a Mormon, you’re taught these other dogmas. Really? Like we can become gods of our own planets too? Really, like, god was just an ordinary man like me on some other planet in the universe? It seems laughable, but these missionaries are very good at what they do. The fact is, when we say “Jesus” and they say “Jesus” we are talking about two very different beings. We don’t speak the same language, have the same vocabulary, or have the same understanding of scripture, and yet, they are leading countless others into darkness…

You might have a point, if we actually taught the things you think we do. Since we don’t, I guess it’s OK. Don’t you feel better now?

 

[catholic-rcia]

You might have a point, if we actually taught the things you think we do. Since we don’t, I guess it’s OK. Don’t you feel better now?

Dianaiad, when I was 14 years old these things I told my girlfriend. The only contact I had with Mormonism at the time was Sunday school and primary which my grandmother taught. I had no contact with others regarding these things, anti anyway.
I remember being excited about these things when I was around 12. What influenced me then was the story about Joseph Smith / America and the images in those ensign magazines. Plus I loved my grandmother so much. How do I remember what I told my girlfriend so many years ago? She reminded me when we moved to Utah 12 years ago. She is my wife of 28 years. Again if anyone has missed it here or for those who view this post and do not respond here is the one in Christ who not only brought my entire wife’s family to Jesus, including my wife but me as well. A real North American Missionary with real history tied to our real Savior…Jesus our Lord and our God.

http://utahmission.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

My Mormon testimonial and why does God allows suffering can be found right here:
Dedicated to my Grandmother, Grandfather, Father and Mother.
http://utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html

A sincere heartfelt in Christ
Rich
Cache Valley Utah

 

[Returning_Home]

You might have a point, if we actually taught the things you think we do. Since we don’t, I guess it’s OK. Don’t you feel better now?

Luckily, however, there are those of us that *do *know what you teach and aren’t afraid to tell those that are seeking to learn about Mormonism.

 

[shagenbarth]

You might have a point, if we actually taught the things you think we do. Since we don’t, I guess it’s OK. Don’t you feel better now?

Dear Dianaiad,

I will feel better, when those dwelling in darkness, come into the light. I know of what I speak, and I know it is the truth. There are hundreds of replies within this thread, many of whom will be able to argue theology on both ends of this argument. What I find facinating, is that there are so many LDS individuals who are regular members of this organization. To all, I would ask for you to read 2 Corinthians 11: At least verses 13-14.

2 Corinthians 11 (New International Version)

2 Corinthians 11
Paul and the False Apostles
1I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. …
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Is it not possible, then, that your Joseph Smith was not put upon by Satan, masquerading as an angel of light and providing him with this “other testament?”

I have friends who are LDS members, and I fear for them, as I do for you. You are good people, but living in darkness. I will continue to keep you in my prayers. Search for the truth, acknowledge your doubts, and pray for direction from the God who created you and loves you.

Peace.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad, when I was 14 years old these things I told my girlfriend. The only contact I had with Mormonism at the time was Sunday school and primary which my grandmother taught. I had no contact with others regarding these things, anti anyway.
I remember being excited about these things when I was around 12. What influenced me then was the story about Joseph Smith / America and the images in those ensign magazines. Plus I loved my grandmother so much. How do I remember what I told my girlfriend so many years ago? She reminded me when we moved to Utah 12 years ago. She is my wife of 28 years. Again if anyone has missed it here or for those who view this post and do not respond here is the one in Christ who not only brought my entire wife’s family to Jesus, including my wife but me as well. A real North American Missionary with real history tied to our real Savior…Jesus our Lord and our God.

http://utahmission.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

My Mormon testimonial and why does God allows suffering can be found right here:
Dedicated to my Grandmother, Grandfather, Father and Mother.
http://utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html

A sincere heartfelt in Christ
Rich
Cache Valley Utah

So…you are presenting yourself as an expert on LDS doctrine because of something you told your girlfriend, 28 years ago, when you were 14, because your grandmother taught Sunday School? ----28 years during which your main source of information regarding our beliefs has been non-and anti-Mormon?

Don’t you think that it’s just possible that you didn’t have a full understanding at the time, and are remembering it through different filters now?

Because, my friend, our doctrines do not match what you claim for them.

Now the question I have to ask is this: Why in the name of all that is wonderful, when someone is told that their idea of LDS doctrine is incorrect, is the response never, EVER “well, that’s good…thank you for clearing that up,” or " I’m glad you don’t believe that…"

Why is it always, ALWAYS, 'well, that’s what I was told 28 years ago when I was fourteen by my Grandmother the Sunday School teacher…" and somehow that trumps anything that actual Mormons who are doing the believing right now might say?

 

[catholic-rcia]

So…you are presenting yourself as an expert on LDS doctrine because of something you told your girlfriend, 28 years ago, when you were 14, because your grandmother taught Sunday School? ----28 years during which your main source of information regarding our beliefs has been non-and anti-Mormon?

Don’t you think that it’s just possible that you didn’t have a full understanding at the time, and are remembering it through different filters now?

Because, my friend, our doctrines do not match what you claim for them.

Now the question I have to ask is this: Why in the name of all that is wonderful, when someone is told that their idea of LDS doctrine is incorrect, is the response never, EVER “well, that’s good…thank you for clearing that up,” or " I’m glad you don’t believe that…"

Why is it always, ALWAYS, 'well, that’s what I was told 28 years ago when I was fourteen by my Grandmother the Sunday School teacher…" and somehow that trumps anything that actual Mormons who are doing the believing right now might say?

I guess it is possible that I was lied to. But how can they all be telling me the same lies?
All of the Mormons who come to the Catholic Church here in Utah tell me the same things about what they know to be true. I have been with them for 12 years now.
Two of which our LDS Bishops daughters. One from Grace Idaho and the other from Logan. They were very much involved with your church. Would they not be telling us the truth? And all of the others?

Please answer these questions yes or no so you can clear up what I have come to beleive about your Church.

Do you believe that there is anything good about you apart from Jesus?

Would you still be a good person without Him?

Do you believe Satan to be the spirit brother of Jesus?

Do you believe that God the Father has a Father?

Do you believe that as man is God once was?

Do you believe Jesus took the sins of the world in Him including your own and nailed them to the Cross and died with them in Him to save you?

Do you believe that Jesus is the only eternal Son of God, no others like Him in all of the heavens?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega?

Do you believe that you were created through Him and for Him?

Do you believe that Jesus has always been, no beginning like you or me?

Just yes or no

www.utahmission.com

 

[catholic-rcia]

I will go first to let you know how a Catholic would answer

Do you believe that there is anything good about you apart from Jesus? No

Would you still be a good person without Him? No

Do you believe Satan to be the spirit brother of Jesus? No

Do you believe that God the Father has a Father? No

Do you believe that as man is God once was? No

Do you believe Jesus took the sins of the world in Him including your own and nailed them to the Cross and died with them in Him to save you? Yes

Do you believe that Jesus is the only eternal Son of God, no others like Him in all of the heavens? Yes

Do you believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega? Yes

Do you believe that you were created through Him and for Him? Yes

Do you believe that Jesus has always been, no beginning like you or me? Yes

 

[Todd520]

I will go first to let you know how a Catholic would answer

Catholic-rcia
It’s much easier to tell you what LDS do believe. Many of the items you posted have been discussed at length with each having their own thread
**

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
   -]9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,/-]
9. the forgiveness of sins,
10. the resurrection of the body,
11. and life everlasting.**

 

[catholic-rcia]

Catholic-rcia
It’s much easier to tell you what LDS do believe. Many of the items you posted have been discussed at length with each having their own thread

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
-]9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,/-]
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and life everlasting.

I am being told I was lied too by many Mornon friends including my LDS grandmother.
That’s not what I asked, I asked those questions for a specific reason. yes or no easy questions. You can go ahead and answer as well. Just yes or know.

You post the Christian Creed and cross out (Christ Universal / His very Body) ?
That was wrong to do here at this forum . Where inside of you did this come from?

 

[JHow]

Todd250: Note that “catholic” in the creeds is little “c” - universal. Does that change your opinion in any way?

 

[catholic-rcia]

Catholic-rcia
It’s much easier to tell you what LDS do believe. Many of the items you posted have been discussed at length with each having their own thread

Todd520: “**I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person’s
religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people’s religions, he is in a bad condition.” **
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that **all their creeds were an abomination in his sight **… He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith 2:18-20).

" The Catholic Church is not built on the fall of another Church, it was built by Jesus because we are all fallen" - Rich Horrell / UtahMission