The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Brainwashed

[zaffiroborant]

You appear to think everyone is brainwashed who disagrees with you. I think we can all learn from each other and throw out this brainwash nonsense.

Nope I don’t think everyone who disagrees with me is brainwashed and my post didn’t imply that.

 

[zaffiroborant]

My own personal seminary. It’s called reading.

Can you find infant baptisms in the Bible? I cannot. However, I have read the writings of Eusebius and Mosheim regarding how things evolved.

Baptism by immersion is a symbol of the death and resurrection.

Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

During the first half of the third century sprinkling with water was allowed in place thereof. Cyprian, the learned bishop of Carthage, advocated the propriety of sprinkling in lieu of immersion in cases of physical weakness; and the practice thus started, later became general.

It was also decided around this time that delaying baptism for infants would be dangerous, should the child die and be condemned. However, this is absurd because little children don’t have the ability to sin.

Read more, dark ages, Catholics persecuting the Puritans, read more.

 

[dianaiad]

I am not trying to be rude with this post but really I feel as though it is FACT. I’m sorry if some people feel I am offending the JW and mormons

Oh, that’s OK, we understand that if we feel offended, it’s only because your statement is offensive.

 

[dianaiad]

I’ve never come across any supporting documentation on your “great scholar” and “Catholic theologian” story. As far as I can see it is nothing more that a faith promoting tale, it reads alot like most Ensign stories or those handed out by the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

As to brainwashing I really can’t say but I do think it’s strange to have church issued teaching manuals for children 18 months through 2 years. If it is brainwashing it starts way earlier than any other church I’ve ever heard of. In most other churches I’ve seen it’s take the babies with you to church or put them in babysitting.

Indeed. By the way, that’s 18 months through 3 years, not 2. How typical of you to forget to mention that the title for the class for that age group is “nursery,” and that the lessons in that book are very age appropriate…(and don’t Catholics teach their two and three year olds to pray?) with all sorts of activities and games.

How odd of us to take the children you relegate to 'baby sitting" and teach them that they are children of God, and teach them songs and other religious matters appropriate to their age and understanding.

Dang, man, you guys BAPTIZE your kids before they are old enough to hold their heads up straight, and you are honestly going to criticize us for teaching our three year olds how to fold their arms and be reverent, or that water comes in lakes, streams, snow and rain?

Are you truly that…I have no idea what the proper word for this is. Tell me; at what point in a child’s life do you think it is proper to teach him or her about God? 5? 10?
15?

 

[dianaiad]

Viable? Then you have no problem with

Baptism for the dead

No baptism for infants

More than one God

Marriage for eternity

On going revelations to their prophet

Believing that there were great cities in the America’s with no evidence of such

Believing that Joseph Smith received the interpretation from god by placing a “seer stone” in a hat and sticking his face in it

Believe that God is a man with flesh and bones like anyone else

He just told you that he was fully convinced that there was no apostasy. Therefore your questions to him are moot. If, however, there WAS one, then one could assume that a restoration would teach concepts that one was not familiar with.

 

[dianaiad]

Typical Mormon. You take the facts and distort them or you selectively pick a portion of the truth without revealing the remainder. You did this when you selected definition #1 and ignored definition #2 which plainly applied to the LDS. Here is a repeat of #2 along with another to back it up:

1. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

impose beliefs on somebody: to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use of various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim’s prior beliefs

Leave it to a Mormon to try and gain sympathy by suggesting that we were saying it was FORCED brainwashing that was being applied when it was not.

If the definition of ‘brainwashing’ includes ‘forced,’ then by using the word, then you are also using the definition. “Concentrated” is also ‘forced,’ in that the targets have no choice but to be subjected to it. There is no force here.

Of course, if you are going to be that broad in your definition of brainwashing, then you WILL have to include Catholicism as a ‘brainwashing’ group. After all, there is nothing so repetitious as the rosary, nothing so concentrated as the catechism or the mass. The typical student at a Catholic school has that 'concentrated means of persuasion" down pat. The local Catholic high school, for instance, makes certain that the students attend mass three times a week, has daily religion classes, mandates retreats and service hours, and everybody is expected to say the rosary every single day.

Now that’s concentrated.

Before you accuse someone else of ‘brainwashing’ because of teaching techniques, be certain you don’t use the same, or similar ones yourself; because of course you don’t want to be judged by the same negative standards you use on us, do you?

…by the way, the local Catholic High School is an award winning academically superior school that turns out amazing scholars of every sort. I have no criticism whatsoever for it; indeed, the students who go there seem to be happy, productive, and most importantly, LEARNING.

I’m just saying that if WE are ‘brainwashing’—then you are too, and in far greater measure, as far as I can tell.

If you dial back the definition of “Brainwashing” so that it excludes you, then it excludes us, as well. You can’t really have this both ways.

 

[dianaiad]

It’s stuff like this that makes one go hmmm when the word brainwashed is used.

My MIL who got her first computer 5 years ago at age 87 can post images on the internet, I think you could learn too, and we’d all like to see your proof of Moroni and the plates.

How very nice for your MIL.

Now.

Can she get a digital camera, take the picture, put it on the computer, use a program to save it to a format that is easily uploaded to forums such as this one, and then actually upload it?

I believe all this requires the digital camera, the connection to the computer (either directly or through a card reader), software such as photoshop or other, hopefully less expensive software (perhaps her camera comes with something) and PERMISSION TO PUT IMAGES ON THE FORUM, which, by the way, as a brand new member with fewer than 100 posts to her name, she would not have here.

How about dialing the sarcasm back, eh?

 

[dianaiad]

I had to create a flickr account for this so I hope you enjoy it

flickr.com/photos/40710696@N07/3748811330/

Thank you, Laura. I love it.

I don’t think it rises to the status of proof of the BOM (the quilter/tapestry maker could have gotten the story from another source…) but It is a truly neat work to see.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Indeed. By the way, that’s 18 months through 3 years, not 2. How typical of you to forget to mention that the title for the class for that age group is “nursery,” and that the lessons in that book are very age appropriate…(and don’t Catholics teach their two and three year olds to pray?) with all sorts of activities and games.

Generally it’s the parents responsibility to teach these things at home not some teachers job during Mass. As I understand it the18 months are called Nursery and 3 year olds are called Sunbeams and both have a teaching manual.

How odd of us to take the children you relegate to 'baby sitting" and teach them that they are children of God, and teach them songs and other religious matters appropriate to their age and understanding.

I have never seen a Catholic church have babysitting ( I said “other” when talking about churches I’d seen) to me not taking your child to church with you is, well I don’t know how to describe it. Family goes to church together doesn’t matter if your kids are 18 months or 20 years we are all in church together.

Dang, man, you guys BAPTIZE your kids before they are old enough to hold their heads up straight, and you are honestly going to criticize us for teaching our three year olds how to fold their arms and be reverent, or that water comes in lakes, streams, snow and rain?

Parents teach their kids.

Are you truly that…I have no idea what the proper word for this is. Tell me; at what point in a child’s life do you think it is proper to teach him or her about God? 5? 10?
15?

Day one parents are to teach their children, that’s why the children are with their parents.

 

[zaffiroborant]

How very nice for your MIL.

Now.

Can she get a digital camera, take the picture, put it on the computer, use a program to save it to a format that is easily uploaded to forums such as this one, and then actually upload it?

I believe all this requires the digital camera, the connection to the computer (either directly or through a card reader), software such as photoshop or other, hopefully less expensive software (perhaps her camera comes with something) and PERMISSION TO PUT IMAGES ON THE FORUM, which, by the way, as a brand new member with fewer than 100 posts to her name, she would not have here.

How about dialing the sarcasm back, eh?

Nope it doesn’t require all that equipment you list, MIL doesn’t have it. And since the poster magically put it up the ignorance does seem a bit feigned.

 

[dianaiad]

Generally it’s the parents responsibility to teach these things at home not some teachers job during Mass. As I understand it the18 months are called Nursery and 3 year olds are called Sunbeams and both have a teaching manual.

Don’t equate Primary and Sunday School with Mass, Zaff. You MIGHT, if you must, compare Mass to Sacrament meeting if you want to, but then you would have to admit that we don’t send our children elsewhere during that meeting; everybody stays with the parents.

As well, though I wrote ‘through’ three years old, you are quite right; at the age of three, children become ‘Sunbeams’ in Primary. Call it a typo if you wish, but YOU used language that intimated to me that you were saying ‘to’ two. Consider the confusion on age levels cleared up for both of us.

I have never seen a Catholic church have babysitting ( I said “other” when talking about churches I’d seen) to me not taking your child to church with you is, well I don’t know how to describe it. Family goes to church together doesn’t matter if your kids are 18 months or 20 years we are all in church together.

And here you are, equivocating again. You claim to know so much about us, how come you don’t know that our Sacrament meeting is for everybody, and that all the children stay with the parents during that time? How come you don’t know that Sunday School and Primary are SEPARATE meetings, where everybody separates for classes?

While the parents are attending Sunday School, Relief Society (women) and Priesthood meetings (men) the children under twelve are attending Primary classes, and the youth are attending Mutual and Sunday school classes. Everybody attends Sacrament meeting. Together.

So. You don’t have instructional meetings? No catechism classes?

Never mind, there is at least on thread on CAF where people are discussing Sunday School lessons, so I guess that answers that question.

Zaf, if you are going to criticize, it’s a really good idea to know what you are talking about first.

Parents teach their kids.

When was the last time you saw the church recommend that the parents be solely responsible for catechism lessons?

yes, our parents teach our children, too. We ARE the folks with 'Family Home Evening" going on.

Day one parents are to teach their children, that’s why the children are with their parents.

Well, since you obviously don’t know enough about us to even understand that the entire family attends Sacrament meeting together, I think your point, above, is moot.

 

[dianaiad]

Nope it doesn’t require all that equipment you list, MIL doesn’t have it. And since the poster magically put it up the ignorance does seem a bit feigned.

I see. So she, who had posted a whole 2 posts on this forum and does not have permission to post images yet, figured out how to get the image to us anyway, is now going to be accused of ‘feigning’ her 'ignorance?"

How is not knowing how to do something she can’t do ‘feigning’ anything?

By the way, any comments on the image?

 

[matthewadam]

I wrote that post in reply to MatthewAdam, and on second reading I realize that it was a mistake! I had misunderstood his post. I try to read posts too quickly sometimes and misunderstand them. Sometimes my mind get tired and I don’t concentrate very well. So my apologies to MatthewAdam for misunderstanding his post. Your post, however, bears no relevance at all to what he had said or I had written!

My apologies again to MatthewAdam for misunderstanding his post.

Hey, no worries Zerinus…must admit, at first I was a little confused!

But it gives me the chance to say that I have known more than a few Mormons personally, and to each one they are friendly, generous, dedicated and admirable, even if they hold different beliefs.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So for those of you who say there is no evidence… ok fine, this is evidence to me. Heck the greatest minds of the day said the world was flat and it was a crazy notion to say it was round. And those of you who say Mormons are brainwashed well that is just stupid in my opinion. People do leave the church; many have. If the church were brainwashing people would others be able to leave so simply? I think not. But hey that just my opinion

Sounds like a mormon missionary had already come through.

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

From American Heritage Dictionary,

Brainwashing:

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

I would not consider what Mormons do to convert and retain members to fall under this definition.

Forgive me haven’t read all the posts…

Then you haven’t beent to the monthly fast and testimony meetings. After the sacrament is passed it’s open mike night for bearing one’s testimony.
“I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith is a prophet, I know the Book of Mormon is Scripture [insert personal anecdote here] InthenameofJesusChristAmen.”
Rinse and Repeat for the rest of the meeting.
People are constantly called on for their testimony - either in sunday school classes, relief society/priesthood, missionary visits, etc. the pressure to repeat the party line is strong.

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

I have been both faiths and don’t believe I was ‘brainwashed’ by either one.

and if I have been…what does that say about the state of my brain?

JW’s appealed to me because of their zeal, sincerity and scholarship. Yep I was raised by atheist and apatheic Methodist. I was always curious about God and the JW’s knocked on my door first. They had a ready answer for everything from the Bible. (little did I know then it was a faulty translation) and away I went. I liked being a pioneer and arguing doctrine with people. But I continued going to college and having ‘modern/worldly’ ideas and was slowly but surely otrasized by the congregation. I began to question and that is the kiss of death for a JW. After about 4 years of activity I disassiociated.

Then the Mormons got a hold of me. I LOVE Mormons - they are the sweetest people EVER! They would give you the shirt off their back if it would help you. I Loved the doctrine. But after five years with them I realized that liking something doesn’t make it true.

I was the victim (if you must) of poor religious upbringing. I knew I needed God, but hadn’t a clue where to find him.

I don’t any of my experiences would be construed as ‘brainwashing’ but I was severely misguided.

 

[Jon_Hus]

The Catholic Church has in its teachings that no one may be coerced into becoming Catholic, that it is a choice the individual must freely make.

Official teachings notwithstanding, the historic record and reality is quite different.

 

[Stephen168]

My own personal seminary. It’s called reading.

Can you find infant baptisms in the Bible? I cannot. However, I have read the writings of Eusebius and Mosheim regarding how things evolved.

Baptism by immersion is a symbol of the death and resurrection.

Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

During the first half of the third century sprinkling with water was allowed in place thereof. Cyprian, the learned bishop of Carthage, advocated the propriety of sprinkling in lieu of immersion in cases of physical weakness; and the practice thus started, later became general.

It was also decided around this time that delaying baptism for infants would be dangerous, should the child die and be condemned. However, this is absurd because little children don’t have the ability to sin.

Yes, I can find infant baptism in the bible. If you read Eusebius, you would know there was never a ‘Great Apostasy.’ To think otherwise, you would have to cherry pick just the right quotes.
I’ve never seen anyone of any age ‘sprinkled’ during Baptism unless it was just during the mythical vortex of history call the dark ages.

 

[dianaiad]

Forgive me haven’t read all the posts…

Then you haven’t beent to the monthly fast and testimony meetings. After the sacrament is passed it’s open mike night for bearing one’s testimony.
“I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith is a prophet, I know the Book of Mormon is Scripture [insert personal anecdote here] InthenameofJesusChristAmen.”
Rinse and Repeat for the rest of the meeting.
People are constantly called on for their testimony - either in sunday school classes, relief society/priesthood, missionary visits, etc. the pressure to repeat the party line is strong.

“called on?”

When was the last time you were in a Fast and Testimony meeting where the bishop asked a specific person to ‘bear’ their testimony?

 

[RebeccaJ]

“called on?”

When was the last time you were in a Fast and Testimony meeting where the bishop asked a specific person to ‘bear’ their testimony?

People are constantly called on for their testimony - either in sunday school classes, relief society/priesthood, missionary visits, etc. the pressure to repeat the party line is strong.