The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Brainwashed

[ParkerD]

Forgive me haven’t read all the posts…

Then you haven’t beent to the monthly fast and testimony meetings. After the sacrament is passed it’s open mike night for bearing one’s testimony.
“I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith is a prophet, I know the Book of Mormon is Scripture [insert personal anecdote here] InthenameofJesusChristAmen.”
Rinse and Repeat for the rest of the meeting.
People are constantly called on for their testimony - either in sunday school classes, relief society/priesthood, missionary visits, etc. the pressure to repeat the party line is strong.

Hi and I hope all is well with you,
Are you saying that the members of the church during the time of the apostles didn’t meet together and share their faith and seek to strengthen each other? Did only Paul and John and Peter do that?

What about this passage in Revelation 12?

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[zerinus]

I have been both faiths and don’t believe I was ‘brainwashed’ by either one.

and if I have been…what does that say about the state of my brain?

JW’s appealed to me because of their zeal, sincerity and scholarship. Yep I was raised by atheist and apatheic Methodist. I was always curious about God and the JW’s knocked on my door first. They had a ready answer for everything from the Bible. (little did I know then it was a faulty translation) and away I went. I liked being a pioneer and arguing doctrine with people. But I continued going to college and having ‘modern/worldly’ ideas and was slowly but surely otrasized by the congregation. I began to question and that is the kiss of death for a JW. After about 4 years of activity I disassiociated.

Then the Mormons got a hold of me. I LOVE Mormons - they are the sweetest people EVER! They would give you the shirt off their back if it would help you. I Loved the doctrine. But after five years with them I realized that liking something doesn’t make it true.

I was the victim (if you must) of poor religious upbringing. I knew I needed God, but hadn’t a clue where to find him.

I don’t any of my experiences would be construed as ‘brainwashing’ but I was severely misguided.

Thank you for sharig with us your interesting story. So what is your current faith status, are you Catholic or something else?

 

[zerinus]

Hey, no worries Zerinus…must admit, at first I was a little confused!

But it gives me the chance to say that I have known more than a few Mormons personally, and to each one they are friendly, generous, dedicated and admirable, even if they hold different beliefs.

And thank you for your kind words and fair-minded approach.

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

Thank you for sharig with us your interesting story. So what is your current faith status, are you Catholic or something else?

Currently Catholic - received December '08. It’s been a wild and crazy ride. Here is my full story:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4072530#post4072530

 

[dianaiad]

RebeccaJ:
OK, let me expand.

when was the last time you saw anybody ‘called on’ to ‘bear their testimony’ in any of those meetings?

This is one of those "you feel the call yourself’ things. Very, very seldom is ANYBODY ever ‘called on’ to do this. In my sixty years it has happened a couple of times, but only to missionaries.

 

[RebeccaJ]

OK, let me expand.

when was the last time you saw anybody ‘called on’ to ‘bear their testimony’ in any of those meetings?

This is one of those "you feel the call yourself’ things. Very, very seldom is ANYBODY ever ‘called on’ to do this. In my sixty years it has happened a couple of times, but only to missionaries.

Go to girl’s camp, where everyone sits around a fire and one by one you have to bear your testimony. Oh, and don’t forget to cry. It’s one of those things that gives me the creeps.

 

[ParkerD]

OK, let me expand.

when was the last time you saw anybody ‘called on’ to ‘bear their testimony’ in any of those meetings?

This is one of those "you feel the call yourself’ things. Very, very seldom is ANYBODY ever ‘called on’ to do this. In my sixty years it has happened a couple of times, but only to missionaries.

Since the discussion is now about testimony meetings, I might as well add a personal experience from about 1972. I was with a group of seminary students at a small gathering in a mountain picnic area near our high school. A “testimony meeting” was part of the planned devotional. Many shared their feelings and testimonies. (I have no idea whether all did.) I shared that I couldn’t yet say that I had felt or hadn’t yet understood the “burning in the bosom” to say that I had the sure witness of a “testimony”. I felt totally comfortable doing that. I didn’t feel coerced into saying something different than that, at all. I felt like I should say something, since I had had leadership roles in seminary classes. Nobody seemed surprised or saddened or whatever when I didn’t say I had a “testimony” at that point in my life–it was just friends talking to friends with honesty and sincerity.

One of the things about testimony meetings is that people’s honesty and sincerity and genuinity comes across. Some children may just be saying words, but I would say the adults present who stand and share (perhaps eight to ten people during the half hour of such a meeting) are being genuine and sincere. Youth and children should maybe back off a bit sometimes, but the adult sharing has a positive purpose in putting into words what people have felt in their hearts.

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

Go to girl’s camp, where everyone sits around a fire and one by one you have to bear your testimony. Oh, and don’t forget to cry. It’s one of those things that gives me the creeps.

LOL - you and I should have a cup of coffee! :compcoff:

I was a primary teacher and for every lesson the manual would say ‘bear your testimony of such and such’ at the end of every lesson.
Visiting Teachers are instructed every month in the Ensign to bear testimony of the things to be discussed.
And every female, and most males, must have moist eyes if not outright tears when bearing their testimony at the podium.
I was guilty once of being one of these… and saying how much I loved those I taught, etc… you didnt’ really think about it – you just did it.
Many LDS might say that was the ‘spirit’ talking, but I think it was really peer pressure.
I have yet to meet a primary kid who didn’t say they wanted to be baptized as soon as they were eight and wanted to serve a mission. Peer Pressure.

 

[SkinnyJay]

Many LDS might say that was the ‘spirit’ talking, but I think it was really peer pressure.
I have yet to meet a primary kid who didn’t say they wanted to be baptized as soon as they were eight and wanted to serve a mission. Peer Pressure.

Pressure, any kind. I think this is really the “push” that most can see in others but rarely in themselves.

I know a young women who has a Anglican father and a Catholic mother. She took the classes her whole life and was confirmed Catholic last year. It is only recently that it has been realized that she is still partaking in Anglican practices more then just “being there” for her father.

It is the attitude of going through the motions no matter how sacred those motions are. She needs to make a decision, a decision she should of made before she was confirmed anything, in what direction she wants to go as Anglican and Catholic beliefs are quite different and not co-believable.

What made her get confirmed in a Faith she may or may not completely believe in. Pressure perhaps?

Whether that pressure is from outside or inside it still pushes people into a certain behavioral pattern that, depending on the pressure, may or may not be what the person really wants or understands.

There is pressure from the Holy Spirit to do right, pressure from parents to have their kid leave the house and get in college. Pressure can be good. Pressure can also be bad. Just because there is a pressure does not automatically necessitate a positive or negative connotation to it.

Also just because there is a pressure does not invalidate any teachings whatsoever. There is pressure in the Catholic Church to play ball just the same as there is in the Mormon one. The strength of the pressure does not necessarily invalidate teachings as well because these are our immortal souls we are talking about isn’t it?

Does God lightly rap on our doors or does he bang… and can that knock be accomplished through His Church?

Just things to think about.

 

[zerinus]

Currently Catholic - received December '08. It’s been a wild and crazy ride. Here is my full story:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4072530#post4072530

Thank you, that was an interesting story. I hope you will find happiness in whatever religion you finally decide to choose.

 

[zerinus]

LOL - you and I should have a cup of coffee! :compcoff:

I was a primary teacher and for every lesson the manual would say ‘bear your testimony of such and such’ at the end of every lesson.
Visiting Teachers are instructed every month in the Ensign to bear testimony of the things to be discussed.
And every female, and most males, must have moist eyes if not outright tears when bearing their testimony at the podium.
I was guilty once of being one of these… and saying how much I loved those I taught, etc… you didnt’ really think about it – you just did it.
Many LDS might say that was the ‘spirit’ talking, but I think it was really peer pressure.
I have yet to meet a primary kid who didn’t say they wanted to be baptized as soon as they were eight and wanted to serve a mission. Peer Pressure.

This idea of testimony is sadly misunderstood by outsiders, and even by members of the Church. The idea is that you should teach, and do whatever you do in the Church, with genuine conviction, and not just as an obligation. If for example you are teaching a gospel lesson, you must genuinely believe that what you are teaching is true, otherwise you won’t be able to do it with conviction, and consequently your lesson will not have the desired impact. If you have that genuine conviction, you are automatically “bearing your testimony” as you teach, and you don’t need to keep saying, “I know it is true”. Thus to “bear your testimony” means to teach, preach, act, and serve in the Church with genuine faith and conviction. If you don’t have that conviction, you could be saying “I know it is true” until doomsday, and you won’t be “bearing your testimony” at all.

 

[MaryElizabeth22]

I wrote that post in reply to MatthewAdam, and on second reading I realize that it was a mistake! I had misunderstood his post. I try to read posts too quickly sometimes and misunderstand them. Sometimes my mind get tired and I don’t concentrate very well. So my apologies to MatthewAdam for misunderstanding his post. Your post, however, bears no relevance at all to what he had said or I had written!

My apologies again to MatthewAdam for misunderstanding his post.

Yes it does. These are the unique questions you were asking about. If you are not “brainwashed” then please answer them.

 

[MaryElizabeth22]

It is very difficult to answer questions when you say things in a shotgun approach. Anti-mormons do this all the time to cause distraction because they know it takes time to answer each question in detail…

We are not anti-mormons. We just have a lot of questions that never get answered.

You won’t find the word “trinity” in the Bible. It was developed later.

No, the word “Trinity” is not there, but Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all called God and Lord in the Bible. That’s why it says to baptize in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. It does not say NAMES.

Where in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon does it say that God is THREE different beings that are one in purpose?

Hardly compelling? You need to read some history my friend.

What history I have read, I NEVER found reference to a “Great Apostacy.” Even in my travels, I never heard anyone say that the “Great Apostasy” occured here.

 

[zerinus]

Yes it does. These are the unique questions you were asking about. If you are not “brainwashed” then please answer them.

Sure we have unique doctrines. Every religion does. That don’t mean, first of all, that you have got our “unique doctrines” right; and secondly, having unique doctrins don’t mean you are brainwashed. If you think that I am brainwashed, that is okay by me. I don’t think that I am, and I don’t think that you are in position to determine is anybody is brainwashed.

 

[Answersplease]

Thought control.

Silence the tongue, silence the mind.

Keep them busy with other “safe” things, divert their attention so they don’t ask certain questions.

Interview Margaret Toscano
pbs.org/mormons/interviews/toscano.html
(The “She” mentioned in the first two following paragraphs quoted is another woman who Margaret Toscano is talking about.)

She’s concerned about the fact that we can’t talk about Heavenly Mother in Mormon meetings. She has other concerns. And she told me a story about how she recently went to her bishop to tell him some of her concerns. He’s a friend of hers, so she was feeling that she could have a sympathetic ear here, and she was more or less shocked when, instead of being sympathetic to some of her concerns, he told her that she was being influenced by Satan and that if she were only not a working mother – that her real problem here is that she’s a working mother and that, because she’s a working mother, she’s now opened herself to the influence of Satan. This has made her dissatisfied with her role as a Mormon woman. …

…
She’s very active in her ward. She has a church calling that she’s fulfilling. She’s doing all the outward things that she is supposed to as a Mormon woman. And yet, by questioning them, now suddenly she’s a pawn of the devil. …

…
Well, one of the contradictions I see presently in Mormon culture is, on the one hand, we have this long tradition of encouraging knowledge and education, and yet at the same time, there’s a real anti-intellectual strain that’s been there for quite some time. Certainly this is true in terms of Mormon studies. There’s a real problem right now as Mormon intellectuals try to become part of the academy, because if you’re an active LDS person and you want to write about Mormonism, there are just certain things that you cannot talk about.

…
Obviously women in the priesthood and Heavenly Mother, but really raising any kind of feminist question is something you cannot do, questioning authority in any way – and in fact, I think that this is probably one of the biggest taboos in Mormonism.

…
And really, to be a Mormon intellectual means that you’re opening up yourself to being called into a church court. It’s a dangerous thing, and … the irony is, for example, at BYU, that if you really want to be a Mormon intellectual at BYU, your area of study cannot be Mormonism.

I do find it as ironic, because they try to say that the great thing about BYU is that you can blend your faith and your scholarship. But you can’t blend your faith and scholarship if your scholarship deals with gender, if it’s in anthropology, if it’s in Mormon history. If it’s anything like that, you cannot blend. They will not allow you to do it.

What I find often Mormon intellectuals do if they want to stay in the church is that they really become almost schizophrenic, where their research is over here in areas that the church does not find challenging, and their faith is over here.

…
Fall of 1993 was very disturbing for the whole intellectual community. In September there were six prominent Mormon intellectuals, feminists that were excommunicated – my husband being one of them. … My husband, Paul Toscano. Some people like to joke and say that he was, in fact, excommunicated for a joke. But it was really because of his criticisms of the authoritarianism of the church, where he critiqued the use of power; he critiqued the lack of spirituality of leaders.

…
what it meant was that it was not OK to be Mormon and to question. It was not to OK to be Mormon and to think about issues deeply.

…
We felt that being Mormon should mean that you could be part of the community and love the community and still talk about difficult issues. So when those excommunications came, it sent out a message to people that it was not OK to do that, and I think we’re still feeling the effects of it today. … What it did is it polarized Mormons. Before 1993 there was more of a middle ground, where you could be active LDS and also questioning or at least exploring certain issues.

…
I have literally hundreds of female friends who left the church because they said, “Well, after what happened to you and other women, there’s no place for me,” … and other women who said: “I can’t leave; I have too many connections, family and my own beliefs and so forth. I’ve got to be quiet.”

 

[Answersplease]

The Mormon Church and Dissent
pbs.org/mormons/themes/dissent.html

…
I was on the faculty of Brigham Young University, and what threw me into the jeopardy of losing my membership in the church were my publications in LDS history.

I was fulfilling what I believed was God’s mission for me: to understand the leadership of the church and the history of the church as well as I could, and to present it as honestly I could with the perspective that my training gave me so that members of the church wouldn’t be disturbed when they learned about these problem areas, because anti-Mormons were using history as a club to beat the faith out of people. I felt this wouldn’t be possible if they already knew about these problems. …

…
Mormonism’s relationship to intellectuals has become difficult because of the interest in Mormon history. The interest in Mormon history has uncovered and revealed complexities, peculiarities, oddities, difficulties inside the history of early Mormonism that has become difficult for contemporary church leaders to accept. Contemporary church leaders find it difficult to accept the idea that Joseph Smith really was a money digger, for example, in his early youth. They find it difficult to accept the varieties of opinion and viewpoints inside Mormonism in the early 1830s and the 1840s, when the church was relatively unformed. They find it difficult to accept variant readings of what we could call orthodox Mormon history, a kind of clean Mormon history that looks nice and pretty in the 20th and 21st centuries.

 

[Answersplease]

It is wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true.

pbs.org/mormons/etc/script2.html

DALLIN H. OAKS, LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true.

exmormon.org/mormon/mormon476.htm

 

[Answersplease]

Lying for the Lord
mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism’s history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. “Lying for the lord” is part of Mormonism’s larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.
…

…
Robert Millet, in a presentation about how to handle the tough anti-Mormon questions missionaries may face while on their missions or afterward, says, “We really aren’t obligated to answer everyone’s questions.” He goes on to say, “We never provide meat when milk will do”, and, “We seek to answer any serious question by finding the most direct route to the Sacred Grove.”
…

…
Mormon Molly Bennion writes:

“Many have argued, often under the guise of ‘milk before meat,’ that we must not disillusion the new or weak with all-too-human history or the questioning of the Lord’s anointed–questioning being by definition under this theory, criticism, even heresy. Better the lie.”[9]

 

[Answersplease]

exposeromney.com/pages/Video_LDS.html

Robert Millet, a Professor of Ancient Scripture, BYU

“NEVER GIVE MEAT, WHEN MILK WILL DO”

Robert Millet, famed LDS author and Brigham Young University (BYU) professor instructs young men preparing for their Mormon mission. He tells them not to worry when asked difficult or controversial questions because as members of the LDS Church they already know far more about God than anyone else they will encounter. Millet shows an arrogance that pervades the Mormon culture, but is rarely captured on film because of the closed nature of the religion. His instructions to Mormon missionaries include:

• Mormons do not need to provide a straight answer to every question
• When possible avoid certain subect areas that Christians will find objectionable.
• When asked a difficult question by a non-Mormon, don’t answer that question, instead
  answer the question that person “should have asked.”

 

[murtad]

Debate all you want but I truly believe it. I believe it more today than yesterday. Agree or disagree. That is what this topic is for, Have fun-

The Assyrian Church of the East is in full communion with Jehovah’s Witnesses and LDS (Mormons). Its supreme leader, His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV is a proven Nestorian as he denies the deity of Jesus, by confessing boldly Jesus is NOT God The Word but a (mere) man. According to Assyrian Cathecism published by Mar Thoma Press (India), Jesus died apart from God The Word, the Second Qnuma of the Holy Trinity.

Have you heard that recently both Assyrians and Jehovah’s Witnesses have established full communion as both faith traditions agreed Jesus is NOT God The Word but a creation?

The Watch Tower Society has even agreed to accept the dogma of Peshitta Primacy and agreed to accept the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed in the Syriac language, which is also the language of Jesus.

This is historic move!