The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Brainwashed

[chris2009]

What history I have read, I NEVER found reference to a “Great Apostacy.” Even in my travels, I never heard anyone say that the “Great Apostasy” occured here.

Yes, since it’s been almost 2000 years I doubt anyone now would think there was ever an apostasy. There have been many smaller apostasies since the begining of time. During Noah’s day, there was somewhat of a larger apostasy with Noah and his family being the only faithful left in the world. Noah held these keys. Moses was called of God and received the keys of the priesthood from Jethro his father in law. The Great Apostasy is when the priesthood and all its keys have been lost from the earth. No person on earth authorized to administer ordinances and lead the church as a body. Now keep in mind, I’m not talking about apostasy of individuals, I’m talking about apostasy of the church.

The prophet Amos foretold of this Great Apostasy to come at a future time.
Amos 8:11-12
“11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.”

When the church members thought the second coming was near, Paul assured them that two things must happen first before Christ comes.
2 Thes. 2:1-3
“1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

Acts 20:28-30
“28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

Rev 2:2
“2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:”

One perfect example is Jesus’ parable of the wicked husbandmen.
Mark 12:1-9
“1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.
3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.
4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.
5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.
6 Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.
8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.
9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.”

The vineyard is the human family, but more specifically the covenant people. The lord of the vineyard is Father. The servants are the prophets. As Father sent prophets, one by one they were beat, wounded and killed. Finally he sent his well beloved son Jesus Christ, but they killed him also. The lord then explains what he will do.

In every dispensation of time, the Lord’s true church has always had living prophets and new scripture (because true prophets receive the word of the Lord for the people of their day). Over thousands of years remnants of these prophet’s writings have been compiled from many books into one book called the Bible (in reality the Bible is “many” books). The original Church of Jesus Christ had twelve apostles that led the church having authority from God. They were not paid for their service. They received revelation from God. Christ was crucified. The apostles were killed. From about 100 AD to 300 AD Roman Emporers exterminated the Christians. Finally around 300 AD Roman Emporer Constantine was the first to accept Christianity. However, Paganism had strong influences in Rome. Doctrines and ordinances changed and an entirely different church was formed in Rome. Bishops of the church had a head bishop and after centuries eventually took the Roman Pagan title of Pontiff originally called Pontifex Maximus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus

 

[zaffiroborant]

Alright then so what is taught by church leaders is not the same as Church doctrine, check. Interesting but if you say so.

Having spirit children is taught by the church in no uncertain terms Z just doesn’t believe it.

From the LDS Gospel Principles Manual chapter 47 on Exaltation

*"Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and **will be able to have spirit children **also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)."

 

[ricko]

However, Paganism had strong influences in Rome. Doctrines and ordinances changed and an entirely different church was formed in Rome. Bishops of the church had a head bishop and after centuries eventually took the Roman Pagan title of Pontiff originally called Pontifex Maximus.

I hope you understand that using a title that was used by Romans does not make you a pagan anymore than wearing a wedding band does.

 

[Stephen168]

Why would there be a need to restore ALL things if nothing had been lost?

I guess you really have not read Eusebius as you claimed.

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, since it’s been almost 2000 years I doubt anyone now would think there was ever an apostasy. There have been many smaller apostasies since the begining of time.

And you have no date or place of the Great Apostasy.

The original Church of Jesus Christ had twelve apostles that led the church having authority from God.

There were over 80 apostles.

They received revelation from God.

Only during his earthly ministry.

Christ was crucified.

OK

The apostles were killed.

so?

From about 100 AD to 300 AD Roman Emporers exterminated the Christians. Finally around 300 AD Roman Emporer Constantine was the first to accept Christianity.

How could Constantine accept Christianity if all the Christians had been exterminated?

However, Paganism had strong influences in Rome. Doctrines and ordinances changed and an entirely different church was formed in Rome.

Christians were killed for refusing to worship the pagan God but as soon as there was religious freedom the Christians adopted the doctrines of the pagans. Interesting.

Can you color pictures in your history book?

 

[Stephen168]

Actually I believe the Bible does a better job then the Book of Mormon in explaining this doctrine. There are many places in the Bible that teach this. However, I believe one of the plainest is in John 17 - Jesus’ intercessory prayer. It is so plain, I don’t know how any person can interpret it differently.

As you know in the Bible Jesus constantly refers to He and the Father being “one”. What does this mean? Jesus explains this in John 17:11.

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”

Now Jesus was praying to Father for His apostles. Surely Jesus wasn’t asking that the apostles be of one “substance” physically. What was Jesus saying here then? Jesus wanted the apostles to be unified in purpose just as Father and Jesus are in complete unity and harmony.

The entire arguement in 325 AD with Emporer Constantine and all the bishops surrounded this issue: Was the essense of the Father & Son of the “same” substance or of a “similar” substance? (In other words, one or two beings?) The arguement was between Homoousians (those for “same” substance) and Homoiousians (those for “similar” substance). The little letter “i” changed the entire meaning. Some say the arguement was over one small “iota”. Constantine could not afford division within Rome at this time and quickly brought the debate to a close. The Nicene Creed was created indicating Father & Son were of the “same” substance.

But you didnt’ answer the question; Where in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon does it say that God is THREE different beings that are one in purpose?

 

[SkinnyJay]

Having spirit children is taught by the church in no uncertain terms Z just doesn’t believe it.

From the LDS Gospel Principles Manual chapter 47 on Exaltation

*"Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and **will be able to have spirit children ***also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)."

Thanks Zaf. This is exactly what I needed.

Number 3 also brings up my aside from earlier of will your spirit children worship and adore you, pray to you and die for you the same as one does to the heavenly father.

Number 5 also says in very explicit terms that we will have the power to create a world just like this one. So I am confused on where you get the “we don’t know” from Zer.

Unless of course this isn’t church doctrine just a Mormon exercising his/her right to believe “all kinds of things”.

When it comes to Mormonism I am a confused Catholic, just looking to unweave myself. I have ideas on what I think Mormonism is but would rather have ideas on what Mormonism is.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening SkinnyJay. It is a pleasure to meet you!

Thanks Zaf. This is exactly what I needed.

Number 3 also brings up my aside from earlier of will your spirit children worship and adore you, pray to you and die for you the same as one does to the heavenly father.

Number 5 also says in very explicit terms that we will have the power to create a world just like this one. So I am confused on where you get the “we don’t know” from Zer.

Unless of course this isn’t church doctrine just a Mormon exercising his/her right to believe “all kinds of things”.

When it comes to Mormonism I am a confused Catholic, just looking to unweave myself. I have ideas on what I think Mormonism is but would rather have ideas on what Mormonism is.

Explicit is what you typed. What is written is that we shall have everything that the Father has. The question, of course, is what does that mean? We don’t teach as doctrine explicitly that we will have our own planet. The details of exaltation are limited to phrases such as “join-heirs with Christ” or “have all that the Father has” but we don’t know precisely what that means. It could mean that we will be creating not just planets, but universes, ad infinitum. It could also mean something altogether different. That is what zerinus is getting at, I believe.

I, personally, do not know how exaltation will be experienced and it is hard for me to imagine taking part in the work that God does. However, if this is something that God wants, then who am I to refuse it? What is important to understand is that the frame of reference is never that we somehow take on this role ourselves, but rather it is always with the understanding that this is a gift that Father wants to give to us and it is His desire, His will. It is through His grace and mercy that exaltation, whatever it entails in the nitty gritty details, is attained.

Kind Regards,
Firnock

 

[chris2009]

exposeromney.com/pages/Video_LDS.htmlRobert Millet, a Professor of Ancient Scripture, BYU

“NEVER GIVE MEAT, WHEN MILK WILL DO”

Robert Millet, famed LDS author and Brigham Young University (BYU) professor instructs young men preparing for their Mormon mission. He tells them not to worry when asked difficult or controversial questions because as members of the LDS Church they already know far more about God than anyone else they will encounter. Millet shows an arrogance that pervades the Mormon culture, but is rarely captured on film because of the closed nature of the religion. His instructions to Mormon missionaries include:

• Mormons do not need to provide a straight answer to every question
• When possible avoid certain subect areas that Christians will find objectionable.
• When asked a difficult question by a non-Mormon, don’t answer that question, instead
  answer the question that person “should have asked.”

As a Mormon, this makes complete sense to me. Provide milk before meat. The Savior did the same thing when he taught. The Savior often taught in parables to hide certain teachings from the scribes and Pharisees. Why? Because you don’t cast pearls before swine. The scribes and Pharisees would take the Savoir’s words and twist and distort them. They constantly would try to trick him and trap him in his words. Hmmmm… kinda like what the anti-mormons do to the Mormons.

The Lord is not going to open up the heavens to us right now and show us every thing out in the universe. If he did, I think we would all be stunned and would no longer be able to focus on this earth life. In time we will learn all things, but for now we need to focus on our salvation while on this earth.

As a lifetime member of the church, I have complete confidence in my knowledge and testimony of the gospel. It’s not founded on how many wives Joseph Smith had or whatever crazy doctrine any anti-mormon can dig up trying to tear down faith – it is founded upon my knowledge of the true doctrines of the gospel combined with many undeniable witnesses of the Holy Ghost to my heart. It is founded upon the Book of Mormon being a true testiment of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith being a true prophet of God. I know that Jesus is the Christ and that this is His church. Anything else really doesn’t matter. Because if the Lord commanded it, I’m sure He had a reason – and if I don’t understand now, I will in the next life. However, I can usually study thoroughly and pray and find the answers to most my questions to my satisfaction. My testimony is in both my heart and my mind – both are necessary in order to not be deceived.

If I was investigating the LDS church and only learned part of the deep doctrines without learning everything else first, I would probably avoid the church and have a different opinion of it. I would probably have a difficult time with the church. But because I have a deeper understanding along with many other spiritual experiences it’s easier to accept things I don’t understand fully with faith. The temple was one of those things. There is a lot of symbolism in the temple and a lot that you learn all at once. When I went through for the first time, I’ll admit it was a little awkward because I didn’t understand everything, but I was ok with that because at the same time the spirit was so unbelievably strong I absolutely knew it was right. It’s hard to describe. It felt like a cool fire stiring in my chest and speading throughout my body - sometimes causing goosebumps. It is a great peaceful and joyful feeling that makes you want to help others and be kind. I’ve felt it to a smaller degree each time my children were born as I’m sure most have. When I walk away from the temple though, the feeling stays and then seems to slowly fade away the further away I get from that holy place. It may sound crazy to you, but it is very real for me along with other experiences in my life. This strengthens my faith and my testimony making it unshakable against the small worthless trivial debates that pop up. Of course I don’t solely rely on feelings. I combine that with a thorough study of as much knowledge as I can get. The Holy Ghost will testify of ALL truth.

 

[chris2009]

exposeromney.com/pages/Video_LDS.html

But you didnt’ answer the question; Where in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon does it say that God is THREE different beings that are one in purpose?

Didn’t you read my post? John 17:11.

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”

Doesn’t this say it all? Read the entire chapter of John 17, Jesus continues saying the same thing over and over. Jesus says in so many words, “Father let the apostles be ‘one’ as we are ‘one’”

Am I not being clear?

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks Zaf. This is exactly what I needed.

Number 3 also brings up my aside from earlier of will your spirit children worship and adore you, pray to you and die for you the same as one does to the heavenly father.

Number 5 also says in very explicit terms that we will have the power to create a world just like this one. So I am confused on where you get the “we don’t know” from Zer.

Unless of course this isn’t church doctrine just a Mormon exercising his/her right to believe “all kinds of things”.

When it comes to Mormonism I am a confused Catholic, just looking to unweave myself. I have ideas on what I think Mormonism is but would rather have ideas on what Mormonism is.

Hi, Skinny Jay,
I noticed your comment on the thread about people after they die, and see that you have deep thoughts.

From my experience, Mormons don’t spend much time at all talking or thinking about the kinds of questions you brought up and the kind of lesson that Zaf quoted from. We just don’t know enough about all that and we will find out in due time. You would be familiar with the Savior’s parable where it ends with the phrase, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord.” (Matthew 25:21, 23) What does that mean to you?

I do know that the creative process is a joyful process, and watching children grow and develop is also a joyful process. I have not an inkling of desire to be “worshiped” or “adored”, but I do want to follow Christ and become as much as possible like Him, because He taught that principle clearly (He wants me to) and so did John in the book of Revelation. I think I should trust those promises, even though I don’t understand how they are possible other than the knowledge that Christ has all power given to Him and His grace is truly a power to bring us to God and to bring the promise of becoming like Him in the eternities to come.

I suggest you re-read all the passages in the book of Revelation that reveal the promises to “him that overcometh.” There are about six or seven distinct promises, and they are very specific and direct. I believe the Bible. I believe John wrote what he was told to write. I believe those promises, and I believe God wants us to believe them and have hope in Christ and trust Him and not doubt His power and grace.

 

[zaffiroborant]

zaffiroborant;5477189:

Generally it’s the parents responsibility to teach these things at home not some teachers job during Mass. As I understand it the18 months are called Nursery and 3 year olds are called Sunbeams and both have a teaching manual.
QUOTE]
As an LDS member, I’ve served in the bishopric before and I’ve also served in the nursery before. As you mentioned, nursery is for ages 18 months to 3 years old. With 20 little kids running around, you could argue that the kids are brainwashing the adults! It can take a ton of patience and drive you crazy.

I can tell you exactly what is being taught (and the church is the same world-wide). You start with play time, then you have snack time, then you have more play time, then you have a 5 min lesson on brainwashing subjects like “I’m Thankful for Fish” or “I Love My Family”. Good luck getting their attention though-- A good rule of thumb I’ve learned is the child’s age equals their attention span in minutes. Then they sing a song, then it’s back to play time!

Anyone can check out the Sunbeam Teaching Manual online here:

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,8184-1-4470-1,00.html

You can read the nursery teaching manual too (the one aimed at 18 to 36 month children) it’s here I found the lessons on Joseph Smith Saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ interesting, so was the “I Will Follow the Prophet” lessson

 

[SkinnyJay]

Hello Finrock

Explicit is what you typed. What is written is that we shall have everything that the Father has. The question, of course, is what does that mean? We don’t teach as doctrine explicitly that we will have our own planet. The details of exaltation are limited to phrases such as “join-heirs with Christ” or “have all that the Father has” but we don’t know precisely what that means. It could mean that we will be creating not just planets, but universes, ad infinitum. It could also mean something altogether different. That is what zerinus is getting at, I believe.

Thanks for the reply. I guess what I see is the significant qualifier of “all” in all power, glory, dominion, knowledge. Even more specifically all power. This seems to me to encourage belief in having the power to create a world the same as God could.

Where did this idea of creating a world to populate with spirit children come from? I mean, is this an idea that wormed its way into being taught by Mormons even though it isn’t taught that way objectively from Mormon doctrine? Now that I think about it I think it was me who brought up this concept to a couple Mormon missionaries so it is not them telling me therefore I must of picked it up somewhere outside the Mormon teachings from Mormons. However I distinctly remember them telling me that that was what they, those two Mormon missionaries, believed. So the idea had to come from inside Mormonism as well, at least at that time.

I, personally, do not know how exaltation will be experienced and it is hard for me to imagine taking part in the work that God does. However, if this is something that God wants, then who am I to refuse it? What is important to understand is that the frame of reference is never that we somehow take on this role ourselves, but rather it is always with the understanding that this is a gift that Father wants to give to us and it is His desire, His will. It is through His grace and mercy that exaltation, whatever it entails in the nitty gritty details, is attained. Kind Regards, Finrock

Well said. Thanks for bringing it into perspective.

 

[chris2009]

Jesus gained nothing in this life, but he left behind a legacy and a united church 2000 years later with 1 billion members world-wide.
Oh and one more thing, Jesus hung on a tree to achieve our salvation, Joseph smith never did anything close to this.

Why would you compare Jesus to Joseph? We worship Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith. We don’t pray to Joseph or bow to a statue of him either. We honor his name like any great prophet like Moses or Abraham. Joseph was the prophet of the last dispensation of time. There was Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and then there was Joseph. They each had missions to fulfill and each received new scriptures and revelations from God.

 

[chris2009]

Now that you bring it up, I’ll teach something else. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other Jewish Writings speak of a Messiah Ben Judah and a Messiah Ben Joseph. “Ben” means “son of”. Messiah means “anointed one”. The writings say Messiah Ben Judah would be a redeemer of mankind and come through the lineage of Judah and David. Along side those prophecies talks of Messiah Ben Joseph who will be a “restorer” or “fixer” of things and comes through the lineage of Joseph (of Egypt).

John 1:19-25 says:
“19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?”

The Jews sent priests and Levites to John the Baptist to ask him who he was. Who he was? What does that mean? They had the ancient prophecies of the holy prophets – more than we do now. They knew the Messiah was prophecied to come and John admitted he was NOT the Christ or Messiah. The priests and Levites also knew there were others expected to come at a future time. So they asked about them. Art thou Elias? I am not. Art thou that prophet? No.

Then John explained who he was. Even John had been prophecied of to come forth at his time. Then John is asked why he baptizes if he’s not Christ, Elias or that prophet.

Who is “that prophet”? The Jews still to this day set an extra place at the table for Elijah’s return each Passover in the Spring waiting for his return. But who is “that prophet”? Some Jews believe it is Messiah Ben Joseph.

Now Deut 33:13-17 says,
“13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,
14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,
15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,
16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

Moses blesses the tribes of Israel here. In Joseph’s blessing he says, “Blessed of the Lord be his land”. Where is Joseph’s land? Then he mentions the “ancient mountains” and the “lasting hills”. Joseph’s children were Ephraim and Manasseh. The ox or unicorn is the symbol of Ephraim. Ephraim is prophesied to “push the people together to the ends of the earth” in a future day. To gather Israel. But where is Joseph’s land?

Gen 49:22;26
“22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall”
“26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.”

Jacob blesses his sons (tribes of Israel). A “bough” is a major branch. A branch of Israel. His branches (or descendants) will run over the wall. What wall will Joseph’s descendants go over? The wall by the well is the Pacific Ocean - a major obstacle in days of old. A branch of Joseph came to America in 600 BC and their prophets made a record called the Book of Mormon. In vs 26 there is the theme of Joseph being seperated from his brethren. And they will go to the “utmost bound of the everlasting hills”. Compare Moses’ “lasting hills” above. Where are the everlasting or lasting hills? There is a chain of mountains that comes up from the ocean in Alaska that extends down through Canada, through America’s rocky mountains, down to the tip of South America and back into the sea. There is no other chain of mountains in the world quite like it. These are the everlasting hills. This special land of the Americas is Joseph’s land.

In OT times, of the twelve tribes of Israel, Joseph and Judah were the lead tribes.

We have Messiah Ben Judah (Christ) who in the land of Judah (Israel) presided over bringing forth the stick of Judah (Bible).
We also have Messiah Ben Joseph (Joseph Smith) who in the land of Joseph (Americas) presided over bringing forth the stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon).

And as Moses said - in the last days the descendents of Joseph (through Ephraim & Manasseh) will push the people together (or gather Israel) both spiritually and physically in preparation for the Second Coming of the Savior. Read the story of Joseph of Egypt again – it is a parable of what will happen in our day.

 

[chris2009]

chris2009;5484040:

You can read the nursery teaching manual too (the one aimed at 18 to 36 month children) it’s here

I found the lessons on Joseph Smith Saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ interesting, so was the “I Will Follow the Prophet” lessson

I know that is CRAZY to teach children to follow the prophet! That would be almost like teaching what the Bible teaches.

Just a quick question: If Moses lived today, would you follow him? Or would he be a crazy old man? How about Noah? How about Jesus Christ? It’s easy to just say “yes” until you actually put yourself living during those times. People really thought Jesus was crazy or a zealot or the devil. How would you know Jesus if you met him while he lived on the earth? I trust you are a good person and would recognize him.

Jesus did say, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God”. Another meaning for “see” is to perceive or to recognize.

Jesus also said in John 3:3 to Nicodemus: “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Again it requires some change of heart or pure heart being born again to “see” or to “recognize” the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God was on the earth during that time and many did not recognize it. Do people recognize the kingdom of God on the earth in our day? From the beginning it has NEVER been the most popular group.

 

[Answersplease]

As a Mormon, this makes complete sense to me. Provide milk before meat.

Just like a cult, don’t lay ALL the cards on the table, save the weird stuff untill they are so far emotionally and physically invested in cult that it will be too late to leave then.

The Savior did the same thing when he taught. The Savior often taught in parables to hide certain teachings from the scribes and Pharisees.

You lie, the parables were for the Apostles and the disciples, and when the Apostles did not understand a parable, Jesus The Christ EXPLAINED it to them.

Why? Because you don’t cast pearls before swine.

So your missionaries give “milk before meat”, because the “meat” are “pearls” and you don’t cast mormon “pearls” before the “swine” you are trying to “convert” (trick) into your false religion.
How nice of you to admit it.

The scribes and Pharisees would take the Savoir’s words and twist and distort them.
They constantly would try to trick him and trap him in his words.

They did try to trap Jesus The Christ in their debates, but that has NOTHING to Jesus’s parables TO his APOSTLES and DISCIPLES.

Hmmmm… kinda like what the anti-mormons do to the Mormons.

So says the mormon brainwasher who NEVER gives a STRAIGHT ANSWER.
In this thread alone people can see how hard it is to get a straight answer from a mormon, especially truly evasive ones like Zerinus.
You are just starting, but people here will see how evasive you are it they keep talking to you.

The Lord is not going to open up the heavens to us right now and show us every thing out in the universe. If he did, I think we would all be stunned and would no longer be able to focus on this earth life. In time we will learn all things, but for now we need to focus on our salvation while on this earth.

Your rambling off topic, what has that got to do with “milk before meat”?
More mormon distraction with fancy visions and high sounding words, go try to fool someone else.

As a lifetime member of the church, I have complete confidence in my knowledge and testimony of the gospel. It’s not founded on how many wives Joseph Smith had or whatever crazy doctrine any anti-mormon can dig up trying to tear down faith – it is founded upon my knowledge of the true doctrines of the gospel combined with many undeniable witnesses of the Holy Ghost to my heart. It is founded upon the Book of Mormon being a true testiment of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith being a true prophet of God. I know that Jesus is the Christ and that this is His church. Anything else really doesn’t matter. Because if the Lord commanded it, I’m sure He had a reason – and if I don’t understand now, I will in the next life. However, I can usually study thoroughly and pray and find the answers to most my questions to my satisfaction. My testimony is in both my heart and my mind – both are necessary in order to not be deceived.

If I was investigating the LDS church and only learned part of the deep doctrines without learning everything else first, I would probably avoid the church and have a different opinion of it. I would probably have a difficult time with the church. But because I have a deeper understanding along with many other spiritual experiences it’s easier to accept things I don’t understand fully with faith. The temple was one of those things. There is a lot of symbolism in the temple and a lot that you learn all at once. When I went through for the first time, I’ll admit it was a little awkward because I didn’t understand everything, but I was ok with that because at the same time the spirit was so unbelievably strong I absolutely knew it was right. It’s hard to describe. It felt like a cool fire stiring in my chest and speading throughout my body - sometimes causing goosebumps. It is a great peaceful and joyful feeling that makes you want to help others and be kind. I’ve felt it to a smaller degree each time my children were born as I’m sure most have. When I walk away from the temple though, the feeling stays and then seems to slowly fade away the further away I get from that holy place. It may sound crazy to you, but it is very real for me along with other experiences in my life. This strengthens my faith and my testimony making it unshakable against the small worthless trivial debates that pop up. Of course I don’t solely rely on feelings. I combine that with a thorough study of as much knowledge as I can get. The Holy Ghost will testify of ALL truth.

Your false religion is built on sand.

All prophets MUST be PROVED by their PROPHECIES.

All spirits (angels, gods, whatever you call them) MUST be TESTED against the GOSPEL TRUTH.

Prove your prophets are true prophets, from Joseph Smith on up to today.

Prove your spirits are in accordance with The New Testament,
if they are not in accordance then they are DEMONS.

The original Apostles could heal people and perform other MIRACLES,
lets see your quorum of the twelve apostles do that.

 

[chris2009]

And you have no date or place of the Great Apostasy.

Place: The earth (it was a world-wide apostasy). Even in the lands of America (see Book of Mormon) by 421 AD Mormon dies and his son Moroni buries the ancient record. Their people have a massive war killing almost all the Nephites leaving only Lamanites (American Indians).
Date: ??? I don’t know if the Great Apostasy happened on a particular date or if it was a gradual loss piece by piece. John the Revelator was the last living apostle around 100 AD. However, Moroni lived well after 421 AD. It is important to understand keys here.
(Though I do find it interesting in Rev 12:6 that it says, “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” The woman is the church. This is actually referring to 1,260 years here (I’ll explain the days/years thing another time). The church was restored in 1830. This would put it at 570 AD, but we don’t really know.

The twelve apostles are all prophets, seers and revelators. They EACH hold ALL priesthood keys. A key has the authority to unlock something. Christ gave Peter the “keys of the kingdom” (Matt 16:18-19) and whatever was bound or loosed on earth was bound or loosed in heaven. What does this mean? When a baptism was performed under those priesthood keys on earth, it was also valid in heaven. Same as with other ordinances. If Peter removed the name of a member from the church, it was also removed in heaven. The priesthood is inseperably connected with heaven. This validates these actions on earth.

Holding the priesthood and holding the keys of the kingdom are two different things. All worthy males can hold the priesthood. Only the apostles/prophets hold ALL keys to that priesthood. And only the one president(or prophet) of the church has the right to exercise ALL keys. This way, when the prophet or an apostle dies, they can be replaced without losing all the keys of the kingdom. They extend their keys to worthy priesthood holders.

I’m not absolutely certain, but it would seem that if all the apostles and prophet were killed, that the keys would be lost and would need to be restored again through heavenly aid.

There were over 80 apostles.

There were only 12 apostles in the Bible. When Judas Iscariot was removed, he was replaced by Matthias. You may be thinking of the quorum of the seventy including Steven, Philip, etc

Only during his earthly ministry.

You suggested the apostles only received revelations during Christ’s earthly ministry. Actually this is incorrect. One example is Peter received the revelation that the gospel should finally go to the Gentiles and not just the House of Israel. Another example is, the entire New Testiment was written while Christ was alive – it happened years later. In fact Mark never even met Christ. They received revelation to write scripture. They each were called of God by those who held the “keys” of the priesthood. This would be the First Presidency of Peter, James and John.

How could Constantine accept Christianity if all the Christians had been exterminated?

Maybe I didn’t word that well. Not ALL Christians were killed, but many. They were given the choice to either deny Christ or be killed. So many of the best ones were killed. One Roman Emperor (I’ll find his name) bragged that he “exterminated” all the Christians.

Christians were killed for refusing to worship the pagan God but as soon as there was religious freedom the Christians adopted the doctrines of the pagans. Interesting.

Christian weren’t killed for refusing to worship the pagan god. They were killed for being Christian. Roman Emperors like Nero and Diocletian were the worst when it came to killing Christians. From 100 AD to 300 AD, many practices within the Christian churches had already evolved. It is said the Jews and Pagans put a lot of pressure on the Christians. It’s actually kind of like today with diversity and multiculturalism. When you try to stand up for your values and beliefs you’re called intollerant. The Christians had the same problems. People in power tried to appease everyone. Plus the Roman government had much control. For example, the Christian resurrection, the Jewish Passover and the Pagan Feast of Eostre the goddess of fertility all fell in the spring around April. We see a combining of elements to form what is now Easter with bunnies and eggs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre

 

[chris2009]

Just like a cult, don’t lay ALL the cards on the table, save the weird stuff untill they are so far emotionally and physically invested in cult that it will be too late to leave then.

You lie, the parables were for the Apostles and the disciples, and when the Apostles did not understand a parable, Jesus The Christ EXPLAINED it to them.

So your missionaries give “milk before meat”, because the “meat” are “pearls” and you don’t cast mormon “pearls” before the “swine” you are trying to “convert” (trick) into your false religion.
How nice of you to admit it.

They did try to trap Jesus The Christ in their debates, but that has NOTHING to Jesus’s parables TO his APOSTLES and DISCIPLES.

So says the mormon brainwasher who NEVER gives a STRAIGHT ANSWER.
In this thread alone people can see how hard it is to get a straight answer from a mormon, especially truly evasive ones like Zerinus.
You are just starting, but people here will see how evasive you are it they keep talking to you.

Your rambling off topic, what has that got to do with “milk before meat”?
More mormon distraction with fancy visions and high sounding words, go try to fool someone else.

Your false religion is built on sand.

All prophets MUST be PROVED by their PROPHECIES.

All spirits (angels, gods, whatever you call them) MUST be TESTED against the GOSPEL TRUTH.

Prove your prophets are true prophets, from Joseph Smith on up to today.

Prove your spirits are in accordance with The New Testament,
if they are not in accordance then they are DEMONS.

The original Apostles could heal people and perform other MIRACLES,
lets see your quorum of the twelve apostles do that.

I’m not sure it’s worth my time talking to you. I’m extremely proud to be a member of this “cult” of 13.5 million members world-wide. I know you were hoping to use the word cult in a fearful negative way.
But according to my dictionary a cult is:

1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

I have a great love and devotion for my Savior and for my church.

Let me give you some clues on how to tell good from evil:
Righteousness will always try to build up, while evil will always tear down.
Righteousness will build faith, while evil will cast doubt.
Righteousness will show love and respect, while evil will throw railing and hateful accusations.
Righteousness will stand on obedience and faith, while evil will in weakness always ask for proof or a sign.
Righteousness will have peace and happiness, while evil will never be satisified.
Righteousness will seek the pure truth, while evil will be full of falsehoods.

I testify to you that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles can perform miracles and healings as well as ALL worthy men who hold the priesthood in our day. I have had personal experiences myself that are sacred to me, however, I would never cast my pearls before swine.

 

[Answersplease]

I’m not sure it’s worth my time talking to you. I’m extremely proud to be a member of this “cult” of 13.5 million members world-wide. I know you were hoping to use the word cult in a fearful negative way.
But according to my dictionary a cult is:

1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

I have a great love and devotion for my Savior and for my church.

Let me give you some clues on how to tell good from evil:
Righteousness will always try to build up, while evil will always tear down.
Righteousness will build faith, while evil will cast doubt.
Righteousness will show love and respect, while evil will throw railing and hateful accusations.
Righteousness will stand on obedience and faith, while evil will in weakness always ask for proof or a sign.
Righteousness will have peace and happiness, while evil will never be satisified.
Righteousness will seek the pure truth, while evil will be full of falsehoods.

I testify to you that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles can perform miracles and healings as well as ALL worthy men who hold the priesthood in our day. I have had personal experiences myself that are sacred to me, however, I would never cast my pearls before swine.

Righteousness will always try to build up, while evil will always tear down.

Jesus The Christ over turned the tables in the Temple.
Jesus The Christ called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs.

You seem to say you are better than Jesus The Christ.
But then you have Joseph Smith and all you latter day prophets and apostles to be your example don’t you.

It’s allways the same, if they can’t give a good answer, they go for the personal attack.

How convenient that you hide your miracles from the news reporters and the world, if the prophets and apostles are true then they FEAR NOTHING that is not of the TRUE GOD.
The prophets and apostles would boldly proclaim the miracles.

The Original Apostles were willing to face pagans in order to boldly proclaim the Gospel and perform miracles whenever they felt the need, they did NOT HIDE their MIRACLES.

Saint Paul was beaten up many times, he was shipwrecked, and he was even stoned and left for dead. Guess what he did after he was stoned and left for dead? He got up and went BACK to PREACH some more!

Keep your mormon pearls, I’ll stick with The Holy Bible and Jesus The Christ and the rest of The Holy Trinity.