The most damaging innovation to Catholic parishes in the last 50 years...

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Be very cautious about such statements. You first have to ask, “Who goes around gathering such information and for what purpose?”

It’s very interesting the dirt that some people can dig up on priests, religious and politicians when they have an ax to grind.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
True, we definitely need to be careful with statistics and polls. But I would point to polls of the laity in recent decades that indicate between two-thirds and three-quarters don’t believe in the real presence (either reject it or simply were never taught it well) which were seperate polls by seperate institutions. Even if there were a ridiculous margin of error of, say 15%, then that would still be more than half of Catholics and when we see problems like that in the laity, then it isn’t that hard to believe that a large amount of Priests are also lacking in their beliefs and that that would account for why so much of the laity lacks faith in the Real Presence.
 
I think that the most damaging thing of recent times in Catholic parishes is that many priests don’t believe in the Real Presence (which, of course, invalidates any Masses they say).
Incorrect! The validity of the Sacrament depends on form and intention. The intention being the priest must intend to do what the Church does. The validity of the Mass does not require the priest to intend what the Church intends. As long as the priest follows the correct form and has this intention to follow the correct form then he offers a valid mass whether or not he believes in the Real Presence. Of course on his part by not believing he commits a sacrilege by consuming our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.
 
Incorrect! The validity of the Sacrament depends on form and intention. The intention being the priest must intend to do what the Church does. The validity of the Mass does not require the priest to intend what the Church intends. As long as the priest follows the correct form and has this intention to follow the correct form then he offers a valid mass whether or not he believes in the Real Presence. Of course on his part by not believing he commits a sacrilege by consuming our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.
I don’t think there was any claim about validity of the consecration.

I think we can all agree that Priests not believeing in the Real Presence is a very bad thing for a parish.
 
In the Philippines there are no cry room. I grew up without a cry room. Me and millions of Filipino Catholics didn’t have these problems you have been describing.
The problem is with the white Northern European mindset. Southern European and South Americans also dont suffer from this up tightness.
 
I don’t think there was any claim about validity of the consecration.
I was responding to Paxvobis who stated:
Originally Posted by Paxvobis
I think that the most damaging thing of recent times in Catholic parishes is that many priests don’t believe in the Real Presence **(which, of course, invalidates any Masses **they say).
The validity of the Mass does not depend on the priests belief. The validity depends on the matter, form, and intent.
I think we can all agree that Priests not believeing in the Real Presence is a very bad thing for a parish.
I do not disagree with Paxvobis or you on that point.
 
True, we definitely need to be careful with statistics and polls. But I would point to polls of the laity in recent decades that indicate between two-thirds and three-quarters don’t believe in the real presence (either reject it or simply were never taught it well) which were seperate polls by seperate institutions. Even if there were a ridiculous margin of error of, say 15%, then that would still be more than half of Catholics and when we see problems like that in the laity, then it isn’t that hard to believe that a large amount of Priests are also lacking in their beliefs and that that would account for why so much of the laity lacks faith in the Real Presence.
After many years of teaching theology to priests and religious, I have found that one of the problems is comprehension and language. As one of our brothers always says to me, “Words have meanings.”

It’s not that there are as many people as they claim who do not believe in the real presence as it is that many people have not been tuaght in a way that is very clear what the Blessed Sacrament is. The wording that has often been used has been confusing, ambiguous, often too similar to Protestant wording (thought not exactly the same) and at times too lofty.

I recently read a post around here where someone questioned whether Pope Benedict believed in the real presence. What happened was that Pope Benedict explains the real presence in very Franciscan terms. He is a great student of Augustine and Bonaventure. Bonaventure never uses the term Transubstantiation. However, he does believe in it and he describes it perfectly. The term was very new in Bonaventure’s time, the mid 13th century.

In addition, the Holy Father added that we do not actually eat and drink flesh and blood, because the phyiscal presence of Christ is the Glorified Christ and he proceeds to explain that its not about biology, but about essence.

Long story short, I read the article and the pope made perfect sense to me. I’m a Franciscan and was formed in Bonaventurian language. The poor person who was reading it, did not understand at all. It sounded as if he was denying transubstantiation, which he was not.

There were other times when I saw religious education books that very cleary say that Christ offers himself to his people as bread and wine. They are not denying the real presence, but the wording is very poor. It sounds as if Christ becomes bread and wine instead of the reverse, the essence of bread and wine are transformed into the essence of Christ. I have heard priests use this same terminology and I cringe. I know what they mean, but their wording is not saying what they mean. They think they’re making sense, in reality, it confuses the listener.

The confused listener walks away trying to pull this together. When he or she is polled, his explanation is worse than the one in the book or that the priest gave. Now we find ourselves further from the appropriate response and the pollster concludes that the person polled does not believe.

As my confrere says, “Words have meaning.”

Fraternally,

Br… JR, OSF 🙂
 
I am not sure that I would call the cry room the most damaging innovation; however, it seems to me that it is the part of the disturbing “about me” trend that I see at Mass whether it is about contemporary music to make people feel good or about the deep silence to allow people to meditate better. The Mass is not about us or for us. Romano Guardini and then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger invested a lot of time discussing in their books how we fit into the Mass and how we should participate into it. I never saw that it was about us even if it calls for our presence.
Seriously, What’s it all about then. Didn’t Jesus suffer and die for his flock, the body of Christ? Isn’t the Mass the re-presentation of Calvary. The Mass is absolutely all about us. It is about God’s perfect love for each and every one of us. That’s like saying toys are not about kids. Oh someone else made them and someone else bought them, but if not for kids toys would not exist.

If not for sinful man, Christ would not have redeemed us. The Mass is totally for and about us.

Now, I think I have an idea what you are driving at. That is that Mass is supposed to provide some kind of emotional lift or spiritual high or, in a word, enrtertainment. Many misunderstand the nature of Mass and how holy it really is. Often this attitude stems from a me first perspective and often it happens because people have never been told otherwise.
 
Seriously, What’s it all about then. Didn’t Jesus suffer and die for his flock, the body of Christ? Isn’t the Mass the re-presentation of Calvary. The Mass is absolutely all about us. It is about God’s perfect love for each and every one of us. That’s like saying toys are not about kids. Oh someone else made them and someone else bought them, but if not for kids toys would not exist.

If not for sinful man, Christ would not have redeemed us. The Mass is totally for and about us.

Now, I think I have an idea what you are driving at. That is that Mass is supposed to provide some kind of emotional lift or spiritual high or, in a word, enrtertainment. Many misunderstand the nature of Mass and how holy it really is. Often this attitude stems from a me first perspective and often it happens because people have never been told otherwise.
Everything about the Mass ought to be theocentric. Today, many parts of the mass are Anthropocentric (some of them are not official parts of the novus ordo but optional variables). Mass is certainly not about us. It is all about and all for God Almighty. That in no way negates that He loves us so there is no reason to make any straw-man arguments about it being about us because He loves us. We appreciate His love for us and we repay it with a form of worship called sacrifice (not a meal, or supper, or fellowship, although it does carry the secondary or tertiary meaning of a meal) that is theocentric in nature.
 
The problem is with the white Northern European mindset. Southern European and South Americans also dont suffer from this up tightness.
I must say, that’s a pretty ridiculous statement.
 
Now that I think about. I really haven’t seen too many churches equipped with cry rooms.
 
I must say, that’s a pretty ridiculous statement.
Perhaps the word “white” was ill chosen, but if he meant that generally the heresy of modernism is one that has infected western civilization more than other parts of the world, then he is at least somewhat correct. However, it was only a head start. It is catching up in the rest of the world.
 
Here’s a though I had earlier today:

Why do we think that a crying child is an inconvenience to us? Do we think the parent is enjoying it? Do we think the child is having a great time? Why do we think that we are the ones who are inconvenienced?
 
Here’s a though I had earlier today:

Why do we think that a crying child is an inconvenience to us? Do we think the parent is enjoying it? Do we think the child is having a great time? Why do we think that we are the ones who are inconvenienced?
Why do we think an itchy eye is an inconvenience?

If one’s eye itches, it detracts from our ability to focus on mass just like a wailing scream does.

Wouldn’t it be a bit easier for a child to be comforted/taken care of away from everyone else than it would be in a constrictive pew? It just depends on how we view these cry rooms.
 
Why do we think an itchy eye is an inconvenience?

If one’s eye itches, it detracts from our ability to focus on mass just like a wailing scream does.

Wouldn’t it be a bit easier for a child to be comforted/taken care of away from everyone else than it would be in a constrictive pew? It just depends on how we view these cry rooms.
Why do you compare a child to an itchy eye? Whatever makes your eye itch is not human.
 
Why do we think an itchy eye is an inconvenience?

If one’s eye itches, it detracts from our ability to focus on mass just like a wailing scream does.

Wouldn’t it be a bit easier for a child to be comforted/taken care of away from everyone else than it would be in a constrictive pew? It just depends on how we view these cry rooms.
Really? Your itchy eye distracts you the same as a crying child?
 
Why do you compare a child to an itchy eye? Whatever makes your eye itch is not human.
I don’t hate kids, if that’s what you’re getting at. Things can be annoying, whether they’re human or not. I know a child that cries is normal, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be distracting.
Really? Your itchy eye distracts you the same as a crying child?
Yep. Especially during allergy season. Why does it matter what distracts me?
 
I don’t hate kids, if that’s what you’re getting at. Things can be annoying, whether they’re human or not. I know a child that cries is normal, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be distracting.

Yep. Especially during allergy season. Why does it matter what distracts me?
So do you take your eye out of mass when it distracts you? That’s why it matters. Because you never know if your fellow parishors are just as distracted by your itchy eye and it, to quote you “would be the right thing to do” to leave the pew and go somewhere else.
 
So do you take your eye out of mass when it distracts you? That’s why it matters. Because you never know if your fellow parishors are just as distracted by your itchy eye and it, to quote you “would be the right thing to do” to leave the pew and go somewhere else.
No, I scratch it. And my eye doesn’t affect anyone else.
I do thank you for the humor, though.
 
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