The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God

[Pitcharan]

The bolded part is true even in most African countries like Namibia. That is mostly Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists and those un-churched. I did never try to find out why they do this.

placido

They do this because this prophecy had to be fulfilled: …all generations wil call me blessed! (Lk1:48b)

 

[PLeeD]

Originally Posted by PLeeD:
From what I’ve seen, protestants are far more charitable toward Mary than you are toward protestants.

Why do you say this?

KShaft - “I surley do not forget her or brush her off blatantly as the heretics do.”

That’s some inflammatory rhetoric there. A few centuries ago heretics were burned at the stake. If we were born in a different time, maybe KS would show up on my doorstep with a rope and some kindling?

So what’s with the pejorative epithet? Seems uncharitable at least, and extremely un-Christian if I wanted to be more sensitive about it.

I’ve set in protestant church services on-and-off my entire life, and have never heard a single anti-Catholic remark. The only recent reference to Catholicism I can recall (recent as in the last five years) was when a preacher was referencing some existing commentary on a passage of scripture. The commentary used the phrase “catholic church” with a lower-case “C”. The preacher paused to make sure the congregation understood that the writer was using the word “catholic” in the sense of the universal body of believers in Christ, and not the capital “C” Catholic Church.

Seems like some Catholics sense an anti-papist under every rock. Despite what they might think, the protestant churches I’ve attended don’t exist to bash Catholics. They exist to worship God as they best understand how, and don’t spend any time at all worrying about what Catholics are up to.

 

[PLeeD]

Firstly mary was NOT “used”. …Saying that she was “used” is extremely disrepectful and improper in this respect, implying an inamate object without a will or soul.

You are bending over backwards to read that into what I said. I intended no disrespect, and none should be inferred. Mary was “used” in the sense that she successfully fulfilled her role in God’s plan for the salvation of the world. That doesn’t imply that she did so unwillingly or unwittingly.

But let’s play your game for a minute. What if Mary had exercised her free will and refused? Were there other sinless virgins available for recruitment who were also immaculately conceived?

 

[Pitcharan]

You are bending over backwards to read that into what I said. I intended no disrespect, and none should be inferred. Mary was “used” in the sense that she successfully fulfilled her role in God’s plan for the salvation of the world. That doesn’t imply that she did so unwillingly or unwittingly.

But let’s play your game for a minute. What if Mary had exercised her free will and refused? Were there other sinless virgins available for recruitment who were also immaculately conceived?

Agreed you did not err even slightly when you said God used Mary. But you seriously erred when you described her role as being as ordinary as any other creature. We are all aware that God even used Babylon to teach a lesson to Israel. Can you compare that with Mary’s role? Doesn’t the gospel teach us that she was God’s highly favoured one who was chosen for the greatest role among all humans that all future generations would call her blessed? Come into the light, my friend! Don’t remain in darkness. God is exalting Mary more and more everyday and continues to reward her unparalleled humility. Her extrordinary veneration by millions cutting across denominations as well as religions, is no human work as you perceive.

 

[KShaft]

Lack of veneration hardly equals disrespect.

Why would you expect excessive reverence from a person who sees Mary as equal to any other human being, except for having been used by God as part of his plan? In that view, Mary is similar to Ananias, who was used by God to help convert Paul. Should we venerate Ananias as well?

From what I’ve seen, protestants are far more charitable toward Mary than you are toward protestants.

Yes thats a perfect analogy because out of the billions of women ever born, this one woman is the one chosen to bear the Messiah, Son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit; for nine months, raise him and care for him for 30 some years, suffer immensely watching her Holy and beloved Son be tortured and put to death in a horrible manner, is exactly the same as one guy who Christ spoke to in a vision for 5 minutes and then restored Paul’s Vision. Yeah, that is nearly the same…

And we should revere Ananias, though not to the degree of the Holy Mother. He is a Saint and Martyr after all. Oh no wait those martyrs aren’t any better than you guys. Why should you give any respect right? And therein lies the crux. No humility, no respect, no reverence, no sense of obedience, a sense of entitlement to salvation of all things… Anyone from your bible get-together group(church) could have been the mother of Christ right…RIGHT! Thats why you don’t get to try to interpret scripture all by yourselves. You dick it up, and get 40,000 some different denominations all proclaiming that you hold the ‘truth’. Its also a lot easier to misunderstand the meaning of the scriptures when you throw out all of the tradition that helped create the Gospels in the first place.

Well when I was going to a campus crusade for Christ thing at my school, there was a few Catholic bashing sayings per meeting. At first I was fuming and then I looked into what they were saying in scripture and then the Early Church Fathers on issues such as infant Baptism, the Eucharist, Mary, Confession, Conduct in addition to faith, etc…and they were always in the wrong, and the Catholic Catechism correct. So Im in debt to their hatred, they increased my faith in the one true Church. I never attacked their bible study groups(churches) and was very humble, and when I tried to defend the Catholic position and they were loosing it went to the “Well their priests molest children” argument. I am not making this up. They really pulled that card. I didn’t snap at em or even say anything in anger. I just sucked it up and forgave em. Cause I really liked them, and thought much of their love for at least scripture and Christ.

Im not charitable against heresies. We’ve compromised too much already when we should have stood firm. We are supposed to conform the world not conform to it. Oh and lack of acknowledgment IS disrespect. Think about when someone lets a door slam in your face, or doesn’t return a nod or wave or ‘hello’ when passing by. If a little thing like this is disrespect, how much more is it not acknowledging the Mother of Christ.
You’ve accomplished quite a task there, being ‘charitable’ towards the mother of God. Its as if she’s offended you somehow.

 

[placido]

PLeeD;6938423:

Why would you expect excessive reverence from a person who sees Mary as equal to any other human being, except for having been used by God as part of his plan?

And that fact alone (being “used” by God) makes her special. Moses, Abraham, John the Baptist were equal to any other human being too, but the fact that they were “used” by God makes them special people, isn’t it?
And this talk of Mary being “used” is degrading. It makes her an unwilling and an unthinking puppet. It seems you believe that she said “yes” under duuress.
PLeeD;6938423:

In that view, Mary is similar to Ananias, who was used by God to help convert Paul. Should we venerate Ananias as well?

“Ananias, you are full of grace and you are blessed among men and blessed is the fruit of your …” Stop right there. There is no such a thing in Scriptures.

From what I’ve seen, protestants are far more charitable toward Mary than you are toward protestants.

That one is a very interesting comparison.

placido

 

[placido]

But let’s play your game for a minute. What if Mary had exercised her free will and refused?

No “what if’s” here. She did not refuse and that is the fact we have to live with.

placido

 

[FNDRB58]

Originally Posted by PLeeD:
From what I’ve seen, protestants are far more charitable toward Mary than you are toward protestants.

KShaft - “I surley do not forget her or brush her off blatantly as the heretics do.”

That’s some inflammatory rhetoric there. A few centuries ago heretics were burned at the stake. If we were born in a different time, maybe KS would show up on my doorstep with a rope and some kindling?

So what’s with the pejorative epithet? Seems uncharitable at least, and extremely un-Christian if I wanted to be more sensitive about it.

I’ve set in protestant church services on-and-off my entire life, and have never heard a single anti-Catholic remark. The only recent reference to Catholicism I can recall (recent as in the last five years) was when a preacher was referencing some existing commentary on a passage of scripture. The commentary used the phrase “catholic church” with a lower-case “C”. The preacher paused to make sure the congregation understood that the writer was using the word “catholic” in the sense of the universal body of believers in Christ, and not the capital “C” Catholic Church.

Seems like some Catholics sense an anti-papist under every rock. Despite what they might think, the protestant churches I’ve attended don’t exist to bash Catholics. They exist to worship God as they best understand how, and don’t spend any time at all worrying about what Catholics are up to.

I was going to but I’ll let KShaft defend his own comments.

Catholics do not speak uncharitably about Protestants in church either. We too are busy praising God. In fact, most Catholics are too busy defending the faith from Protestants. I have had many a Protestant approach me telling me I am going to hell. Catholics just don’t do that because we know we can’t judge someone to hell. In fact, just hours ago at work, a coworker of mine, a Calvary Church member, led me from a non-religious discussion about work which ended up my defending priests as a result of the abuse cases…Protestants LOVE to bring that one up. And I don’t mind discussing it because I know how to but they don’t like to listen and don’t use some common sense…their minds are made up. How many just in this thread have been attacked…or have had to defend the Catholic Church from those attacks? I don’t mean to start a back and forth on who is better or worse in this regard but Catholics just don’t go out looking for trouble. We find ourselves defending, defending, defending. In my experience, Protestants, mostly “non-denominational” Christians loathe the Catholic Church. We don’t call other churches the whores of Babylon and their leaders the anti-Christ. I am always hearing televangelists and even Billy Graham talk about the fears of “organized” religion. I can go on and on…

 

[FNDRB58]

you are bending over backwards to read that into what i said. I intended no disrespect, and none should be inferred. Mary was “used” in the sense that she successfully fulfilled her role in god’s plan for the salvation of the world. That doesn’t imply that she did so unwillingly or unwittingly.

But let’s play your game for a minute. What if mary had exercised her free will and refused? Were there other sinless virgins available for recruitment who were also immaculately conceived?

But he chose HER****!!! God found favor in HER!

 

[Chris258]

Yes thats a perfect analogy because out of the billions of women ever born, this one woman is the one chosen to bear the Messiah, Son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit; for nine months, raise him and care for him for 30 some years, suffer immensely watching her Holy and beloved Son be tortured and put to death in a horrible manner, is exactly the same as one guy who Christ spoke to in a vision for 5 minutes and then restored Paul’s Vision. Yeah, that is nearly the same…

And we should revere Ananias, though not to the degree of the Holy Mother. He is a Saint and Martyr after all. Oh no wait those martyrs aren’t any better than you guys. Why should you give any respect right? And therein lies the crux. No humility, no respect, no reverence, no sense of obedience, a sense of entitlement to salvation of all things… Anyone from your bible get-together group(church) could have been the mother of Christ right…RIGHT! Thats why you don’t get to try to interpret scripture all by yourselves. You dick it up, and get 40,000 some different denominations all proclaiming that you hold the ‘truth’. Its also a lot easier to misunderstand the meaning of the scriptures when you throw out all of the tradition that helped create the Gospels in the first place.

While you bring up valid points concerning Mary’s unique role in salvation history, your words are harsh, brother. PLeeD has already shown more open-mindedness than many of our Protestant visitors by acknowledging the validity of the Catholic interpretation of Scriptures referring to Jesus’ brothers and sisters. Surely, you cannot expect him (sorry, never picked up your gender in skimming the thread; correct me if I’m wrong) to give full assent to the Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church within the span of a few days, and on an internet forum at that?

I grew up in the Assemblies of God Church, and I was always in the context of their Pentacostal Christianity until a couple of years ago when I converted. I can tell you myself that giving overt veneration (litanies, hymns, art, statuary, votive candles, preservation of relics, caring for incorruptible bodies, etc) to any Christian saint, let alone the special veneration due the Mother of God, is an entirely foreign idea to most of them. In fact, almost the entirety of Catholic Christian living and worship is a whole different world to them; it’s about as far from a liturgical and sacramental mode of thinking as you can get. Please try to understand. Think how you feel when Protestant accusations are uncharitably flung at you concerning all the faults of the Catholic Church throughout history; do you think doing the same toward Protestantism in such a tone is going to help PLeeD understand our faith?

Well when I was going to a campus crusade for Christ thing at my school, there was a few Catholic bashing sayings per meeting. At first I was fuming and then I looked into what they were saying in scripture and then the Early Church Fathers on issues such as infant Baptism, the Eucharist, Mary, Confession, Conduct in addition to faith, etc…and they were always in the wrong, and the Catholic Catechism correct. So Im in debt to their hatred, they increased my faith in the one true Church. I never attacked their bible study groups(churches) and was very humble, and when I tried to defend the Catholic position and they were loosing it went to the “Well their priests molest children” argument. I am not making this up. They really pulled that card. I didn’t snap at em or even say anything in anger. I just sucked it up and forgave em. Cause I really liked them, and thought much of their love for at least scripture and Christ.

I know all too well your experience. I remember one occasion where a group of us from our college non-denominational, Christian organization were staying together for a few nights in a pastor’s home, and someone found a few vitriolic, anti-Catholic pamphlets in the house. They knew I was considering converting, and I had a terrible experience as they just took the misleading information in the pamphlets as really representing Catholicism and subsequently bombarded me with accusatory questions. However, in the end I did convert, and through my presence, I think many of them look at Catholicism in a much fairer and less readily-offensive light now, though they still disagree with many of its doctrines. I still love them all very deeply and keep in close contact with them; I also have hopes for their conversion to the Catholic faith, one day. However, we still can’t go from our bad experiences from Protestants and harshly attack the faults of Protestantism out of frustration, only to investigate the truth in charity.

Im not charitable against heresies. We’ve compromised too much already when we should have stood firm. We are supposed to conform the world not conform to it. Oh and lack of acknowledgment IS disrespect. Think about when someone lets a door slam in your face, or doesn’t return a nod or wave or ‘hello’ when passing by. If a little thing like this is disrespect, how much more is it not acknowledging the Mother of Christ.
You’ve accomplished quite a task there, being ‘charitable’ towards the mother of God. Its as if she’s offended you somehow.

While a lack of veneration for the Mother of God may in itself be a disrespect, we cannot judge so harshly the child of a Christian people who simply have gone generation-after-generation lacking any overt reference to her. Doing so would only prompt the person to become defensive, certainly not the kind of openness we want in explaining our faith to others. Be at peace, brother, and let’s continue to have an understanding, fruitful discussion.

 

[Chris258]

PLeeD:

you are bending over backwards to read that into what i said. I intended no disrespect, and none should be inferred. Mary was “used” in the sense that she successfully fulfilled her role in god’s plan for the salvation of the world. That doesn’t imply that she did so unwillingly or unwittingly.

But let’s play your game for a minute. What if mary had exercised her free will and refused? Were there other sinless virgins available for recruitment who were also immaculately conceived?

But he chose HER****!!! God found favor in HER!

Let us be very clear: Catholics do not conceptualize the Mary’s mothering of Christ purely as God sweeping through the world as if he were searching without foreknowledge for a pure maiden through whom the most profound event in all creation would occur. Nor do we say that Mary had such great gifts of humility and purity of herself.

Rather, God chose her before the foundation of the world [cf. Ephesians 1:4] to be a fitting vessel for His entering into the world, the very centering-point of all created history. By God’s love and grace alone was she made a fitting mother for the one God-man. To attempt to grasp the Catholic view of Mary, one absolutely must grasp the profundity of what it meant for the Word to “take flesh” from his mother. The very substance of Jesus Christ’s humanity was, indeed, Mary’s humanity [cf. The Athanasian Creed].

To the Catholic mind, Mary is seen given by God a unique place among all the heroes of the Christian faith, so intimately clothing her with grace that we call her the pure, spotless, ever-virgin. Indeed, she is God’s foreshadowing of the intimacy and depth to which grace will clothe us. But no matter how clothed with grace Mary is, she is not the fountain of grace, whose very being is grace and divinity itself: Jesus Christ.

We honor and venerate the martyrs because God has honored them, accepting their sacrifice, thinking it gain to die for Christ. As God gives the greater honor, so do we. And we cannot think of a greater honor that God could have given, than to be his mother. Truly we love all the saints for God so loved them, and we greatly love Mary for the great love God has given her.

 

[FNDRB58]

Let us be very clear: Catholics do not conceptualize the Mary’s mothering of Christ purely as God sweeping through the world as if he were searching without foreknowledge for a pure maiden through whom the most profound event in all creation would occur. Nor do we say that Mary had such great gifts of humility and purity of herself.

Let us be clearer still. Mary still had free will.Though chosen from the moment of creation, or perhaps before, she was worthy of God’s choosing. God did indeed know she was of great humility and purity which was of her own free will by the grace of God…many weren’t. She was special, extra-special. God knew this. And she is our Mother to honor regardless of the methodology of God’s choosing.

 

[inkaneer]

Lack of veneration hardly equals disrespect.

Why would you expect excessive reverence from a person who sees Mary as equal to any other human being, except for having been used by God as part of his plan? In that view, Mary is similar to Ananias, who was used by God to help convert Paul. Should we venerate Ananias as well?

From what I’ve seen, protestants are far more charitable toward Mary than you are toward protestants.

First, If you are so charitable towards The Blessed Virgin then why don’t you call her what scripture says future generations will do? As for Ananias, scripture doesn’t call him blessed nor does scripture say he was filled with grace. In addition The Blessed Virgin Mary was a key participant in the Incarnation which without her involvement there would be no Incarnation. That is why God made her and we call her Blessed In addition, Ananias is not unique in christianity. There are lot’s of Ananias’s who convert unbelievers but the Blessed Virgin Mary is the one and only Theotokos, The Mother of God.

As for charity for protestants, maybe if protestants were charitable themselves toward Catholics things may be different. There is a lot of protestant organizations and protestant denominations formally engaged in promoting anti-Catholicism. A large majority of it is based on bigotry and hate. Lies are promoted as fact whether it be regarding the Inquisition or the crusades or Galileo or other aspects of Catholicism. And all this is done in the name of Christ by so called christians. Yet show me one such Catholic organization that does likewise to protestants. Instead Catholics promote things like this forum to seek truth. We don’t need to resort to lies like protestants do. That is the best thing about having the truth. That is why the most charitable thing we can do to protestants is to point out you are wrong and to invite you home to the church.

 

[PLeeD]

And that fact alone (being “used” by God) makes her special. Moses, Abraham, John the Baptist were equal to any other human being too, but the fact that they were “used” by God makes them special people, isn’t it?
And this talk of Mary being “used” is degrading. It makes her an unwilling and an unthinking puppet. It seems you believe that she said “yes” under duuress.

“Ananias, you are full of grace and you are blessed among men and blessed is the fruit of your …” Stop right there. There is no such a thing in Scriptures.

That one is a very interesting comparison.

placido

Let’s get this straight. I recognize and respect Mary’s place in history. I respect her life and contributions. However, if “respect” in the eyes of Catholics means I have to bow down in front of a statue named Mary, then I’m fine with being seen as disrespectful in your eyes.

And really, all this hand-waving over the word “used” is silly, and makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

While you bring up valid points concerning Mary’s unique role in salvation history, your words are harsh, brother. PLeeD has already shown more open-mindedness than many of our Protestant visitors by acknowledging the validity of the Catholic interpretation of Scriptures referring to Jesus’ brothers and sisters.

Thanks for that, Chris. That’s one of few examples of Catholic charity I’ve seen since joining this forum.

FWIW, my reason for joining this forum is to learn other/better interpretations of scripture. The inspiration for joining this Catholic forum comes from watching Father Jonathan Morris, who appears often on the Fox News Channel. I’ve found him to be warm and engaging, and to have interesting insights on spiritual questions.

But Father Jonathan much be preaching a “kinder and gentler” form of Catholicism. If not for his example, from what I’ve seen of Catholics on this forum I’d have given up already. So your comment is really appreciated.

You dick it up…

KShaft, even though I’ve never witnessed the kind of anti-Catholic treatment you’ve described, I apologize profusely for the un-Christian behavior those protestant people subjected you to. I’m just not sure who is be less Christ-like, you or them.

 

[nickybr38]

Let’s get this straight. I recognize and respect Mary’s place in history. I respect her life and contributions. However, if “respect” in the eyes of Catholics means I have to bow down in front of a statue named Mary, then I’m fine with being seen as disrespectful in your eyes.

And really, all this hand-waving over the word “used” is silly, and makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

Thanks for that, Chris. That’s one of few examples of Catholic charity I’ve seen since joining this forum.

FWIW, my reason for joining this forum is to learn other/better interpretations of scripture. The inspiration for joining this Catholic forum comes from watching Father Jonathan Morris, who appears often on the Fox News Channel. I’ve found him to be warm and engaging, and to have interesting insights on spiritual questions.

But Father Jonathan much be preaching a “kinder and gentler” form of Catholicism. If not for his example, from what I’ve seen of Catholics on this forum I’d have given up already. So your comment is really appreciated.

KShaft, even though I’ve never witnessed the kind of anti-Catholic treatment you’ve described, I apologize profusely for the un-Christian behavior those protestant people subjected you to. I’m just not sure who is be less Christ-like, you or them.

Of all the Church teachings this was the hardest one for me (and still is) but I’m doing a bible study right now that explores typology and it’s helping. You can go here to download this study: catholicboard.com/

Surprisingly although I did not take this study to learn more about Mary, bit by bit, piece by piece, it’s helping me to understand just how significant she truly is. I encourage you to download the study. It’s really great! And even if it doesn’t help you with Mary I think it has much for you to learn.

 

[1holycatholic]

KShaft, even though I’ve never witnessed the kind of anti-Catholic treatment you’ve described, I apologize profusely for the un-Christian behavior those protestant people subjected you to. I’m just not sure who is be less Christ-like, you or them.

Perhaps you are blind to it. In my experience many AoG are viciously anti-Catholic, but that may be because a large number of AoG are fallen away Catholics who are ignorant of the Church.

 

[placido]

Let’s get this straight. I recognize and respect Mary’s place in history.

On condition she is placed at the same level with Ananias?

I respect her life and contributions. However, if “respect” in the eyes of Catholics means I have to bow down in front of a statue named Mary …

I hope you will be honest and show me where Catholics are required to ** “bow down in front of a statue named Mary”. ** Failure to do that would reveal who you really are.

And really, all this hand-waving over the word “used” is silly, and makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

Where does the Bible say Mary was simply used? Why do you prefer to say she was simply used if the Bible doesn’t say so?

placido

 

[nickybr38]

On condition she is placed at the same level with Ananias?

I hope you will be honest and show me where Catholics are required to ** “bow down in front of a statue named Mary”. ** Failure to do that would reveal who you really are.

Where does the Bible say Mary was simply used? Why do you prefer to say she was simply used if the Bible doesn’t say so?

placido

You are very stubborn.

I agree that you are getting hung up on the word ‘used’.

God uses me. God uses you. God uses priests. God uses the Church. It is NOT a bad word, despite our modern concept of it. God USED Mary, but MARY submitted herself to God’s will and ALLOWED herself to be used by Him. Why is that bad?

 

[Ann1231]

isn’t this thread about the debate about Mary? why does it now seem to be a “my faith is better than your faith” bashing? sad. this is why many people do not go to church. everyone comes off looking like a hypocrite. I really don’t think this is what Jesus OR Mary would want to see…

 

[nickybr38]

isn’t this thread about the debate about Mary? why does it now seem to be a “my faith is better than your faith” bashing? sad. this is why many people do not go to church. everyone comes off looking like a hypocrite. I really don’t think this is what Jesus OR Mary would want to see…

Good point Ann.