The Most revered woman in History- But not by Protestants

[Marybeloved]

Which is why, BTW I despise the popular CCM song “Mary did you know?” and cringe when I hear it sung in a Catholic Church.

Me toooo!! I always replace this line:

*“This child that you delivered would one day deliver you” *

-with

“This child that you delivered, (had) already delivered you”

 

[Marybeloved]

This is exactly true.

OP, surely you realize that Protestants have different teachings than Catholics. They are only following what they have been taught. Why are you so surprised and upset that others follow their own teachings? Of course they do.

BTW, I WAS raised Baptist (Conference Baptist), and was Baptist for the first 22 years of my life. I was married in the Baptist church. My family returned to the Baptist church for two brief years in the 1990s (during our “church search”).

If you would like to attempt to work with Baptists that you know to change their thinking about Mary, here is what you have to do:

1. Stop condemning them with an angry tone. Yes, they are wrong about Mary, but it is out of ignorance, not vengeance, that they teach that Mary is a sinful human being and not worthy of veneration. Be much kinder in your words and attitude. And don’t be surprised or shocked when they follow their own teachings. That’s what anyone would do.
2. Stop calling Baptists Protestants unless they say it’s OK. A lot of non-Catholic Christians have recently come to resent this “label” because they say that they are not “protesting” anything. I realize that the label is an historic one, but I see nothing wrong with granting the request of various non-Catholic Christians and just calling them “Christians” unless they are OK with the term Protestant. Check first–seek to not offend them over a “label.”
3. There are a lot of different kinds of Baptists (several hundred), and it is very important that you KNOW what kind of Baptist you are dealing with. Be courteous enough to ask for their Statement of Faith, study it, and then you will know whether you are dealing with Conference Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Independent Baptists, Reformed Baptists, etc. They are all very different and it’s important that you know not only what they believe, but how they practice their beliefs.

SOME Baptists are separatists, which means that they probably won’t even talk to you, a Catholic. These Baptists are very hard to reach out to.

But many other Baptists are evangelical and will be happy to become friends with you–always keep in mind that they want you to accept Jesus as your personal Savior, so make sure that you tell them that yes, Jesus is your Savior and you trust in Him to get you to heaven.

Also, some Baptists believe that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and they will beg you to come out and be part of a truly Biblical church. But many other Baptists accept the Catholic Church as a true Christian Church and they will be happy to that you are part of the Catholic Church. Revered Baptist teacher Chuck Colson has founded an organization called Evangelicals and Catholics Together, and he has done a lot of good in helping Baptists to understand that the Catholic Church IS a Christian Church.

1. When you are speaking with Baptists (and many other evangelical Protestant Christians), only one thing matters–what does the Bible say? They will not care two hoots for the Pope, the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, history, etc. The BIBLE is the Sole Authority. As an ex-Baptist, I believe that the Marian doctrines are Biblical. I would suggest that you get hold of Tim Staples’ CDs on Marian doctrine, which contain a lot of historical and Biblical apologetics supporting Marian doctrines. THIS is how you will reach out to Baptists–through the BIBLE.

Godspeed to you as you attempt to help Baptists come home to the Catholic Church and attempt to defend the Blessed Mother with a good, solid Biblical approach.

Thanks, Cat, for your kind and generous advice. I shall be sure to read it again carefully and follow your counsels as a former Baptist.

I’m sorry, my tone appears angry- it probably is. But I do not expect Baptists or any other Protestants to offer Catholic veneration to Mary. If you read my posts you’ll see that I gave the examples of Muslims, most of whom do not pray even to Mohammed! but whose veneration comes out in their manner of speaking, the titles and praises they give both Our Lord and Our Lady. I gave the example of how I’ve witnessed Esther preached in Protestant sermons- I would not expect them to pray to Our Lady, have her pictures with them etc. But certainly, I would expect some clear reverence in sermons and titles and ways of speaking about her that show they realize that this woman carried God in her womb, and called him Son. Talk about her virtues, her uniqueness, her role in God’s plan of salvation and emulate her. Heck- just refer to her as “Blessed Mary” - it’s Biblical! I suppose I was just venting about what I felt was inexcusable lack of reverence. I’ll try to keep your counsels in the future.

Peace.

 

[Nicea325]

I agree that it is about Jesus. And I have told people who have asked me why Catholics ‘worship’ Mary, I tell them we don’t ‘worship’ her, however, since Jesus loved and honored her, how can we not do the same. This usually takes them aback.

It may be a rather simplistic approach, but if Jesus felt someone was worthy, I think I have to do the same.

Yeah I pretty much tell them the same. Jesus displayed much respect and honor for His mother,so why can’t others do the same?

 

[Nicea325]

My two cents…

I have NEVER met a protestant who LIKED Mary. I have met a handful that have TOLERATED Mary.

I have quite often met Protestants who strongly DISLIKE Mary.

I have lived in different states as well and encountered this.

And the sad fact is how many overlook the fact,this is the woman who conceived the SON OF GOD,the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

I have never met a Christian who went out of his way to dislike, disparage, condemn, curse, or express hatred or discuss of Mary ever. It doesn’t happen. I have met Protestants who go out of their way to explain that Mary was not God and that she was human like you or me.

Now, there are Protestants who see in Catholic Mary veneration not the honoring of Mary the Mother of God at all. Instead, they see this Catholic practice as idolatry with roots in pagan worship of the “Queen of Heaven” and other ancient deities. They attack what they see as idolatry being perpetrated by Catholics. They are not attacking Mary the Mother of God.

So please tell me , how do these same Protestants you describe not effectivey reduce Mary to the status of " God’s broodmare " ? That may be a harsh description , but why is my analogy false ?

Why don’t Protestants differentiate between veneration and worship ? Why aren’t Proteastants aware of dulia , hyperdulia and latria ?

Why don’t Protestants show the same veneration Of Mary as first , second , third and fourth century Christians ?

Why don’t modern Protestants show the same respect for Mary that Luther , Calvin and Zwingli did ?

As a Protestant , how do you explain the first 1500 years of Christianity ?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Indeed it is a very sorry fact.

What churches have you attended? I’m glad the members there do not fall in this trap- I see this attitude even on TV sometimes:shrug:. There certainly are Protestants who actively “preach” how Mary should NOT be praised, but without accompanying “honor” that they DO consider appropriate as an example, only just indifference. I’'ve seen sermons about Queen Esther in the OT that betray more respect for her than the Mother of God.

After the Passion movie depiction of a very dignified Mary- oozing with dignity and quiet holiness, and complete humility to God and love for Christ’s followers and perfect devotion to Christ as well as respect shown to her by Christ, I saw then (On TV) what I considered to be unprecedented respect and admiration shown for the Mother of God- But it only lasted a while. I saw this Easter program about the suffering of Christ, clearly based on the passion in every way- except that the dignified, holy, virtuous, submissive-to-God-even-in-suffering woman of the Passion was replaced with a deranged, crazy-looking woman who bitterly complained against God. Surely the Passion did not portray “Mary worship” yet they felt the need to “scale down” even ***that ***depiction of Mary and replace it with one that had lost all the dignity portrayed- isn’t this indicative of the low place in admiration and respect that she occupies in many Protestant circles?

I’m happy you and the Church you attend do honor her, but I see more evidence of Praise and respect of Esther than the Mother of Christ by many Protestants- That Honor that Protestants believe she does rightly deserve, should at least be as visible as the denouncement of Catholic “excesses” regarding Mary, don’t you think?

Marybeloved—

I attend an Evangelical Free Church…but know Christians well who attend other churches. As well as having read works by Catholic (and some Orthodox) writers for the whole time I’ve been a Christian (30 years), my reading and listening among Protestant teachers has been pretty wide-ranging; yet I still have to say I’ve never heard any Protestant railing against Mary----that’s unthinkable.

Having said that, I can appreciate your sensitivity to the fact that some Christians impoverish themselves by not giving Mary due honor, and you’re rightly indignant when you experience that indifference.

 

[AbideWithMe]

So please tell me , how do these same Protestants you describe not effectivey reduce Mary to the status of " God’s broodmare " ? That may be a harsh description , but why is my analogy false ?

Why don’t Protestants differentiate between veneration and worship ? Why aren’t Proteastants aware of dulia , hyperdulia and latria ?

Why don’t Protestants show the same veneration Of Mary as first , second , third and fourth century Christians ?

Why don’t modern Protestants show the same respect for Mary that Luther , Calvin and Zwingli did ?

As a Protestant , how do you explain the first 1500 years of Christianity ?

Chuck----

Greetings from a fellow southeastern Pennsylvanian.

Can you give an example of Protestants regarding Mary as “God’s broodmare”?

 

[exnihilo]

For many Protestants, Mary was merely a vessel for Christ, that’s it. He could have come to earth in any woman, He just happen to choose Mary. This is actually a Gnostic philosophy that dates back into the 2nd or 3rd century. Being in that position, Mary is simply ignored. Its not a question of liking or disliking her, they just don’t give her another thought. She becomes just another Biblical figure. When they do speak of Mary, it is often in a way that shows she was a sinner and totally unaware she bore the Saviour.

That is my experience as far as what I was taught (or not taught) and my experience as far as what other protestants tend to believe. Mary is not usually disparaged in any way but is rather mostly ignored. There is not much interest in exploring her role beyond reading the Christmas Story.

Personally I’ve always been quite moved by John 19:26-27. And despite largely ignoring Mary’s role my church does sing the Stabat Mater, or at least a protestant version.

Which is why, BTW I despise the popular CCM song “Mary did you know?” and cringe when I hear it sung in a Catholic Church.

You’ll be glad to know I despise it myself. I heard it for the first time last week. I’m not a fan of contemporary songs to begin with. But I found the words to be troubling. I’m not sure what all Mary did know at any point in time but if you are going to mostly ignore Mary don’t make exception to sing about her possible ignorance.

I think the fact that since Catholics, Orthodox and especially Muslims honor her above all women, these are viewed by protestants as more reasons not to honor her.

I do think there is often a revulsion of things that are Catholic by some protestants. I think Orthodox are largely ignored and possibly even essentially unknown to many protestants. Regarding Islam I think most protestants who diminish or dismiss Mary are not even aware of Islam’s view of either Mary or Jesus. I think most such people are exceedingly ignorant of other religions. No doubt if they did know they would have some terrible visceral reaction.

 

[ltwin]

So please tell me , how do these same Protestants you describe not effectivey reduce Mary to the status of " God’s broodmare " ? That may be a harsh description , but why is my analogy false ?

Why don’t Protestants differentiate between veneration and worship ? Why aren’t Proteastants aware of dulia , hyperdulia and latria ?

Why don’t Protestants show the same veneration Of Mary as first , second , third and fourth century Christians ?

Why don’t modern Protestants show the same respect for Mary that Luther , Calvin and Zwingli did ?

As a Protestant , how do you explain the first 1500 years of Christianity ?

I don’t think you know the first thing about what Protestants believe about Mary. I think its easy for you to say that we “effectivey reduce Mary to the status of ‘God’s broodmare’” but I think it would be much harder for you to prove that than it will be for me to prove the opposite. We honor Mary as a role model, especially for women. She was a woman of faith and trust in God, even though she faced tremendous challenges. She believed the promises of God, even when they were impossible.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Marybeloved or others—

Not meaning this in an adversarial way at all, I found myself wondering if the following popular songs from Protestant singers would seem offensive to Catholics:

Andrew Peterson’s “Labor of Love”—youtube.com/watch?v=nQ2mni-oeg4

Amy Grant singing “Breath of Heaven”—youtube.com/watch?v=Y2egKSd1oI

From “Labor of Love”, I can see how Catholics would consider this heretical:

“…But for the girl on the ground in the dark
With every beat of her beautiful heart
It was a labor of love
For little Mary full of grace
With the tears upon her face
It was a labor of love”

 

[Marybeloved]

I don’t think you know the first thing about what Protestants believe about Mary. I think its easy for you to say that we “effectivey reduce Mary to the status of ‘God’s broodmare’” but I think it would be much harder for you to prove that than it will be for me to prove the opposite. We honor Mary as a role model, especially for women. She was a woman of faith and trust in God, even though she faced tremendous challenges. She believed the promises of God, even when they were impossible.

But where is the love and reverence? That’s all I personally I’m asking. How many sermons on her great virtues and uniqueness in God’s plan? I’ve never seen it, not on tv or in the schools I attended (attended sunday service compulsorily).

 

[Marybeloved]

Marybeloved or others—

Not meaning this in an adversarial way at all, I found myself wondering if the following popular songs from Protestant singers would seem offensive to Catholics:

Andrew Peterson’s “Labor of Love”—

Amy Grant singing “Breath of Heaven”—

From “Labor of Love”, I can see how Catholics would consider this heretical:

“…But for the girl on the ground in the dark
With every beat of her beautiful heart
It was a labor of love
For little Mary full of grace
With the tears upon her face
It was a labor of love”

I don’t know those songs, I don’t understand which are the heretical lines- Could you please explain? Do the lyrics mean more than what they seem to on the surface?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Marybeloved–

I believe it’s Catholic dogma that Mary experienced no pains of childbirth, and that Jesus was born with Mary’s hymen intact?

 

[Marybeloved]

Marybeloved–

I believe it’s Catholic dogma that Mary experienced no pains of childbirth, and that Jesus was born with Mary’s hymen intact?

It’s Catholic belief (and Orthodox too)- Sure! But dogma? I believe only two Marian dogmas exist in the Catholic Church-Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. The perpetual virginity is however so universal, patristic that it cannot be legitimately disbelieved by any Catholic, I believe- It’s part of the faith.

But I would not consider it offensive as I know that Protestants don’t believe that Christ passed through her painlessly or in the manner he passed through walls after the Resurrection. I honestly do not consider it offensive at all. It’s actually much better than the indifference to Mary that I’ve grown to associate with Protestantism.

 

[TarkanAttila]

It’s Catholic belief (and Orthodox too)- Sure! But dogma? I believe only two Marian dogmas exist in the Catholic Church-Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. The perpetual virginity is however so universal, patristic that it cannot be legitimately disbelieved by any Catholic, I believe- It’s part of the faith.

But I would not consider it offensive as I know that Protestants don’t believe that Christ passed through her painlessly or in the manner he passed through walls after the Resurrection. I honestly do not consider it offensive at all. It’s actually much better than the indifference to Mary that I’ve grown to associate with Protestantism.

I would not see how “tears on her face” is such a bad thing, either, necessarily. Tears of joy, anyone?

But see, labour pains indicate the sinfulness of Eve, who was given and gave labour pains to all who had original sin. So… would a woman born without original sin have labour pains? That is the question.

 

[AbideWithMe]

As usual for me on forums, I messed up the links to Youtube

youtube.com/watch?v=nQZmni-oeg4

youtube.com/watch?v=Y2egKS4d1oI

Okay, Marybeloved. I’ve grown up with hearing “Breath of Heaven” year round, though most frequently during Advent; part of it says----“Do You wonder, as You watch my face, if a wiser one should have had my place? But I offer all I am, for the mercy of Your plan…Be with me now…” I guess to Catholics that may sound as if we’re questioning Mary’s intelligence-----but in fact it’s meant to show the beauty of Mary’s “Yes”, and her self-offering in the face of self-doubt…that’s something we all can relate to, is it not?

 

[Marybeloved]

Marybeloved–

I believe it’s Catholic dogma that Mary experienced no pains of childbirth, and that Jesus was born with Mary’s hymen intact?

I feel very weird talking about Our Lady’s “h”- :blushing:. Perhaps it’s better to say, through the wall, like in the upper room after the Resurrection.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I would not see how “tears on her face” is such a bad thing, either, necessarily. Tears of joy, anyone?

But see, labour pains indicate the sinfulness of Eve, who was given and gave labour pains to all who had original sin. So… would a woman born without original sin have labour pains? That is the question.

Did Christ suffer on the Cross? I fail to see your point.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I feel very weird talking about Our Lady’s “h”- :blushing:. Perhaps it’s better to say, through the wall, like in the upper room after the Resurrection.

Yeah, I know…I hesitated to use the term…through the wall is fine with me.

 

[Marybeloved]

As usual for me on forums, I messed up the links to Youtube

youtube.com/watch?v=nQZmni-oeg4

youtube.com/watch?v=Y2egKS4d1oI

Okay, Marybeloved. I’ve grown up with hearing “Breath of Heaven” year round, though most frequently during Advent; part of it says----“Do You wonder, as You watch my face, if a wiser one should have had my place? But I offer all I am, for the mercy of Your plan…Be with me now…” I guess to Catholics that may sound as if we’re questioning Mary’s intelligence-----but in fact it’s meant to show the beauty of Mary’s “Yes”, and her self-offering in the face of self-doubt…that’s something we all can relate to, is it not?

I don’t see it as insulting Mary’s intelligence since the words are placed in her own lips- she certainly did not consider herself wise enough or worthy to be what God called her to be- This is a wonderful virtue we call Humility. Remember she said- I am the hand-maid (slave) of the Lord and He has regarded the lowliness of his handmaid. Besides, Catholics will be the first to tell you that absolutely no one could “deserve” the privilege, not even the great Mother of God, even though she was far greater than all other creatures- because what we are talking about is Divinity itself.

Like I said before, I’d much rather see some praise and reverence in song, sermons, titles accorded her etc- even if they expressed different beliefs than I hold, than cold indifference (which is what I consider indifference to the Mother of God to be).