The Most revered woman in History- But not by Protestants

[scottmac]

If you would like to attempt to work with Baptists that you know to change their thinking about Mary, here is what you have to do:

1. Stop condemning them with an angry tone. Yes, they are wrong about Mary, but it is out of ignorance, not vengeance, that they teach that Mary is a sinful human being and not worthy of veneration. Be much kinder in your words and attitude. And don’t be surprised or shocked when they follow their own teachings. That’s what anyone would do…

Sorry to burst your reality but most (not all ) baptists (the ones I have met) condmen catholics who heartledly. I have been told that my church is full of “statue worshipers and idolterers” that I am part of a group of “canibals”
I could go on and on. As far as friendships go…99% of them will try and convert you and tell you (quite convincingly, I might add) that you are going to hell because you are not born again or saved. Hey, I lived this environment for 5 years.

NOw I do not want to lump all baptists in one basket. There are SOME fine ones out there. But I personally have not met any that welcomed my catholicism.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Second Vatican Council confirms Mary’s virginity both before and during Jesus’ birth in these words:This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception…then also at the birth of our Lord, who did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it… (Lumen Gentium, No. 57).

I still fail to see how a Miracle through the Lord has anything to do with St Mary’s fully human nature or Christs dual nature in the hypostatic union?

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Chuck----

Greetings from a fellow southeastern Pennsylvanian.

Can you give an example of Protestants regarding Mary as “God’s broodmare”?

You basicly ignore most of my post . It’s the attitude that Christ had to get here if He was coming , so he had to be born of " some woman " , as If she didn’t have a " real " choice ? As if Mary didn’t possess free-will . It’s the functional portrayal of Mary as a mere " vessel " or " broodmare " ! How flattering !

It’s the Protestant relegation of Mary to Christmas and the Gospel of Luke . It’s the indifference at best and the hostility at worst .It’s the dismissal of the first 1500 years of Christianity . Was there a " Church " before there was a Bible or even one Epistle or Gospel ?

Why don’t a majority of Protestants treat Mary with the same respect that Gabriel , Elizabeth and Jesus Did ( as well as Luther , Calvin and Zwingli ) ?

When was the last time you called Mary " Blessed " ?

How does a Protestant deal with the Magnificat ?

Do you think the Orthodox are also wrong about Mary ?
Look at how pre-Reformation Christianity ( which is Eastern and Western Catholicism ) treated Mary and how modern Protestantism( as a whole ) treats Mary .

 

[scottmac]

THIS is how you will reach out to Baptists–through the BIBLE.

Godspeed to you as you attempt to help Baptists come home to the Catholic Church and attempt to defend the Blessed Mother with a good, solid Biblical approach.

Really? Well I tried to use a good solid biblical approach to prove Christ founded the Catholic church and got NO WHERE.
Good Luck everyone!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sorry to burst your reality but most (not all ) baptists (the ones I have met) condmen catholics who heartledly. I have been told that my church is full of “statue worshipers and idolterers” that I am part of a group of “canibals”
I could go on and on. As far as friendships go…99% of them will try and convert you and tell you (quite convincingly, I might add) that you are going to hell because you are not born again or saved. Hey, I lived this environment for 5 years.

NOw I do not want to lump all baptists in one basket. There are SOME fine ones out there. But I personally have not met any that welcomed my catholicism.

I hear you, but Cat is right, it really depends where and who you are talking to. I have 3-close friends who are Baptist Ministers in CT and PA and its a non issue. However as Marybeloved mention’s TBN or SBN is very different.

And thats not to say the North is free of hate for Catholics either. I have seen some far left field theorys here also, in fact border line scary. We had a conversation not long ago here about a fellow in NYC but basically he had his own web page and was producing his own brand of Christianity with a corrupt interpretation of scripture. And radical and full of hate at that.

Its a issue and a work in progress for sure. The point really is where individuals have the capacity for open honest dialogue then all should proceeed in Love. When one has a mind that lives in state of hate? How could that even be Christian? Love your neighbor doesn’t mean only when he’s Christain and in YOUR church.

Peace

 

[JustaServant]

You’ll be glad to know I despise it myself. I heard it for the first time last week. I’m not a fan of contemporary songs to begin with. But I found the words to be troubling. I’m not sure what all Mary did know at any point in time but if you are going to mostly ignore Mary don’t make exception to sing about her possible ignorance.

I am so glad a Protestant posted this.
I wish many liberal kumbaya Catholics would read this post and realize it’s not a slap at Protestants to dislike this song, it’s just a bad song. I hated it when I was a Baptist. Bad is bad no matter what side of the Tiber you are on.
But you bring up an important point. An overly emotional song about Mary’s ignorance, is not something any Christian, Catholic or Protestant, should accept.
I am not against certain Protestant hymns being sung in a Catholic Church during Christmas. But this one is just horrible.

BTW, MDYK was written by an independent Baptist comedian.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am so glad a Protestant posted this.
I wish many liberal kumbaya Catholics would read this post and realize it’s not a slap at Protestants to dislike this song, it’s just a bad song. I hated it when I was a Baptist. Bad is bad no matter what side of the Tiber you are on.
But you bring up an important point. An overly emotional song about Mary’s ignorance, is not something any Christian, Catholic or Protestant, should accept.
I am not against certain Protestant hymns being sung in a Catholic Church during Christmas. But this one is just horrible.

BTW, MDYK was written by an independent Baptist comedian.

So its out by majority:shrug:

 

[Cat]

But where is the love and reverence? That’s all I personally I’m asking. How many sermons on her great virtues and uniqueness in God’s plan? I’ve never seen it, not on tv or in the schools I attended (attended sunday service compulsorily).

Check this out, Marybeloved–

This was just published (dated December 15, 2011)–http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/december/8.26.html?start=1

(You may have to cut and paste the URL–sorry).

I’ve seen many articles like this in the last few years. You probably don’t read a lot of Protestant magazines and newsletters, but I do, and I see this more than I see “anti-Mary.” So don’t despair, and don’t pay much attention to some of the extremist denominations that condemn Mary. Pay attention to this article and others like it. Christianity Today is the voice of many evangelical Christian denominations, and for that matter, publishes articles by and about Catholics. It’s definitely the “norm” among evangelical Christians.

I hope this article warms your heart as it did mine.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

I don’t think you know the first thing about what Protestants believe about Mary. I think its easy for you to say that we “effectivey reduce Mary to the status of ‘God’s broodmare’” but I think it would be much harder for you to prove that than it will be for me to prove the opposite. We honor Mary as a role model, especially for women. She was a woman of faith and trust in God, even though she faced tremendous challenges. She believed the promises of God, even when they were impossible.

Reducing Mary to the status of a mere " vessel " , " necessary packaging " is what I mean by the effective reduction to the status of " broodmare " !

What is so hard to understand about dulia , hyperdulia and latria ?

When was the last time you called Mary , " Blessed " .

How often do you show Mary the same respect that Gabriel , Elizabeth and Jesus did ?

How do yo deal with the Magnificat ?

At the Wedding Feast at Canaa , when Jesus told Mary that His time had not yet come , why did He accede to her wish anyway ?

Why do you think you have to explain to Catholics that Mary is not God ?

Why is Catholic veneration of Mary , " idolatry " ? ( Is part of this the Protestant tendency to equate prayer and worship ? )

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Really? Well I tried to use a good solid biblical approach to prove Christ founded the Catholic church and got NO WHERE.
Good Luck everyone!

That’s funny ! I feel your pain ( literally ) . Did it cause them cognitive dissonance ?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Reducing Mary to the status of a mere " vessel " , " necessary packaging " is what I mean by the effective reduction to the status of " broodmare " !

What is so hard to understand about dulia , hyperdulia and latria ?

When was the last time you called Mary , " Blessed " .

How often do you show Mary the same respect that Gabriel , Elizabeth and Jesus did ?

How do yo deal with the Magnificat ?

At the Wedding Feast at Canaa , when Jesus told Mary that His time had not yet come , why did He accede to her wish anyway ?

Why do you think you have to explain to Catholics that Mary is not God ?

Why is Catholic veneration of Mary , " idolatry " ? ( Is part of this the Protestant tendency to equate prayer and worship ? )

Nothing when you read dulia, hyperdulia and latria and understand the concept. We forget so easily that the CC is 2000 years of teaching. Easily you can spend a semester on each Saint. Bible is another long journey. It just goes on and on. Your talking people who follow the Bible, period basically. And have no desire to seek anything but God First and always.

In truth you really might as well be speaking Latin.

 

[TimothyH]

I live in suburban Atlanta. Many of my friends are Evangelicals, Baptists and mainstream Protestants.

I know one woman who says that Mary was only an incubator for Christ. Many of my Evangelical friends are totally ambivalent about Mary’s role in salvation, believing that if God didn’t use Mary then he would have selected someone else so it is really no big deal.

When asked why Luke made such a big deal about Mary in his first two chapters, they state that it was only to tell us things about Christ, that the facts and events about Mary herself are neither here-nor-there with regards to our salvation and are only commmunicated to us in Scripture to support what we need to know about Christ…

The only area where I have been able to get anyone to acknowledge any Catholic doctrine or dogma about Mary is that she is Mother of God. Jesus is God and Mary is his mother, so Mary must be the Mother of God. “OK”, they say, “But so what?” I have had one woman think that the doctrine of Mary as Mother of the Church was interesting, that the Church is Christ’s body and Mary is the Mother of Christ, so Mary must be the Mother of the Church. She said, “Oh, I never thought of it like that.” But any attempt to go further, to ask what implications these facts have for the average Christian or for them personally is always met with apathy because they believe that a personal relationship with Jesus is all that is required. Everything - Church, Bible, Mary, fellowship with other Christians, good works, faith - everything is usefull only insofar as it supports one’s personal relationship with Jesus and worship of God.

There are many good Methodists I know who have a strong devotion to Mary, but Catholic devotion to the Blessed Virgin is several orders of magnitude greater.

That is my experience here in the deep south FWIW.

-Tim-

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Nothing when you read dulia, hyperdulia and latria and understand the concept. We forget so easily that the CC is 2000 years of teaching. Easily you can spend a semester on each Saint. Bible is another long journey. It just goes on and on. Your talking people who follow the Bible, period basically. And have no desire to seek anything but God First and always.

In truth you really might as well be speaking Latin.

You’re correct and I have to keep reminding myself that . There was a married couple ( former Episcopalians I think , although I think one was a cradle Catholic ) on EWTN’s Coming Home program , and the wife described it as the difference between " Catholic Land " and " Protestant Land " . She said it was literally like two different countries , in a sense .

The thing is , they seem to forget that there is 2000 years of Christianity .

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

I live in suburban Atlanta. Many of my friends are Evangelicals, Baptists and mainstream Protestants.

I know one woman who says that Mary was only an incubator for Christ. Many of my Evangelical friends are totally ambivalent about Mary’s role in salvation, believing that if God didn’t use Mary then he would have selected someone else so it is really no big deal.

When asked why Luke made such a big deal about Mary in his first two chapters, they state that it was only to tell us things about Christ, that the facts and events about Mary herself are neither here-nor-there with regards to our salvation and are only commmunicated to us in Scripture to support what we need to know about Christ…

The only area where I have been able to get anyone to acknowledge any Catholic doctrine or dogma about Mary is that she is Mother of God. Jesus is God and Mary is his mother, so Mary must be the Mother of God. “OK”, they say, “But so what?” I have had one woman think that the doctrine of Mary as Mother of the Church was interesting, that the Church is Christ’s body and Mary is the Mother of Christ, so Mary must be the Mother of the Church. She said, “Oh, I never thought of it like that.” But any attempt to go further, to ask what implications these facts have for the average Christian or for them personally is always met with apathy because they believe that a personal relationship with Jesus is all that is required. Everything - Church, Bible, Mary, fellowship with other Christians, good works, faith - everything is usefull only insofar as it supports one’s personal relationship with Jesus and worship of God.

There are many good Methodists I know who have a strong devotion to Mary, but Catholic devotion to the Blessed Virgin is several orders of magnitude greater.

That is my experience here in the deep south FWIW.

-Tim-

“Incubator for Christ” is on a par with " God’s broodmare " . Do your Protestant friends think Mary had free-will and was able to choose ?
How do/would your Proteastant friends respond when you asked them , " why don’t you show Mary the same respect that Gabriel , Elizabeth and Jesus did " ? Do they think Gabriel , Elizabeth and Jesus got it wrong ?
How often do they call Mary , " Blessed " ?

 

[pismopal]

Not the protestants I know. I live in an area heavily populated with ELCA . They most defiintely do NOT honor her.

I used to live in a Baptist area…they strongly do NOT honor her, and a lot of them think having anything to do with her is a sin “from the pits of hell”…that is one for you Grace, You are SO WRONG.

And I can attest to what you say by my own years of experiences outside the Church. The Blessed Virgin Mary means no more to most of them than any of the three “wise men”. That is the best scenerio…the worst I have heard I would not repeat. The reasons are strictlty anti-Catholic, nothing less.

 

[Cat]

No matter what people think about Mary, we need to remember that she loves us all and is quietly working in everyone to lead them to Jesus. She also interceeds to her Son for all of us, not just those who honor her.

 

[Publisher]

In my youth, I attended the Church of the Nazarene with my parents…at NO TIME in the years we attended did I hear ANY disparaging words concerning Mary…she was the “model Christian” that each of us should immitate…“do what ever he tells you to do.”…she said “Yes” to God and took upon herself the great responsibility of raising her Son.

I was convinced a Friend at 19…I’m now 57…never have I heard a sharp word concerning Mary.

When not living near a Friend’s Meeting I attended a Methodist congregation…and in the two years I was with them…only heard praise and admiration concerning the mother of Jesus…

True…no one spoke of her assumption…nor of her perpetual virginity…or her immaculate conception…or her being a temple virgin…or of Joseph being an older man…but these are pretty distinct Catholic doctrines that are not part of the traditions of other Christian bodies…

I have no images of her…I do not burn candles in front of her image or icon…but I do not disparage the mother of Jesus…she is the model that all Christians should follow…“what ever he tells you to do…do it.”

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

True…no one spoke of her assumption…nor of her perpetual virginity…or her immaculate conception…or her being a temple virgin…or of Joseph being an older man…but these are pretty distinct Catholic doctrines that are not part of the traditions of other Christian bodies…

 

[Publisher]

Publisher;8698345:

And not once in your post do you call Mary , " Blessed " or "Full of Grace " . Why is Mary due less from you than Gabriel and Elizabeth saw fit to show her ?

What did Anne ( Mary’s mother ) dedicate Mary to at her birth ?

Neither did any of the gospel writers who mentioned her outside of Luke…John never calls her “blessed” or “full of grace”…and neither do Matthew or Mark. Paul never mentioned her…the closest thing he said was “born of a woman”…

I have no idea if Anne dedicated Mary at her birth or not…that is a “tradition” from the Protoevangelion of James…written in the mid to late 2nd century after many legends and stories of Jesus early years began to surface and be spread throughout the proto-orthodox/catholic communities. It is part of the various “Infancy” gospels and stories that were circulated…pious legends and myths.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

chuckfrmvalyfrg;8698849:

Neither did any of the gospel writers who mentioned her outside of Luke…John never calls her “blessed” or “full of grace”…and neither do Matthew or Mark. Paul never mentioned her…the closest thing he said was “born of a woman”…

I have no idea if Anne dedicated Mary at her birth or not…that is a “tradition” from the Protoevangelion of James…written in the mid to late 2nd century after many legends and stories of Jesus early years began to surface and be spread throughout the proto-orthodox/catholic communities. It is part of the various “Infancy” gospels and stories that were circulated…pious legends and myths.

Since when does Luke NOT count ? What is critical mass ?

Who did Christ say was John’s mother ?

No , the Protoevangelium Of James was written in the early second century, @120 A. D.

How much difference would it make to you if this James was a disciple of John ( the Apostle ) , who was tasked with looking after Mary ? Just askin’ ?

What was the " job description " of Jewish Temple Virgins , and what did they do when they reached puberty ?

You do realize that legends are not necessarily " fiction " ?
Where in the Bible does it say that all you need to know is only in the Bible ?

So why is it good enough for Gabriel and Elizabeth but not for you ?