The Mystery Of The Empty Tomb

[Bill_Pick]

yes, that is true, in the biblent the water and blood spurted out of the wound. We also know that blood does not gush out of a dead person due to cogulation. So jesus was alive when the spear was thurst into his side. Most likely.

wrong, you love to be right but you are wrong

 

[adrift]

**This is a classic antisemitic statement. I am almost 100 percent sure that it came out of the lips of Paul, and was put down by the Gentile disciple of his who wrote the gospel of Matthew. Jesus could have never offended his colleagues in that manner. He would have broken the Golden Rule of not doing unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Therefore, you could no longer claim that he was sinless. And why Paul? Because he always had a grudge against the Jewish authorities, especially the Pharisees for having never allowed him to build a church in Israeli soil. **

It is not antisemitic. It is addressed only to scribes and Pharisees about their practices not about the Jewish faith. To rebuke bad behavior, is not committing sin. The Golden rule is in the Gospel but is it also in Jewish scripture? If it isn’t Jewish than how could Jesus break it?

 

[adrift]

If we need to raise something from somewhere, isn’t obvious that it requires a physical hands-on action? Therefore, the source is Logic. To rise no, there is no hands-on action. The sun, for example, rises; it is not raised. If Jesus had really resurrected, he would have risen and not been raised. To rise is inherent in the agent; to be raised, the action is remote from the agent.

Ben
words often have multiple meanings. All of the discussion on the word really is off point unless you use the definition that applies. The only applicable one is: to return from the dead. This is the definition that the writers were speaking about.

Definitions of rise
1 a : to assume an upright position especially from lying, kneeling, or sitting b : to get up from sleep or from one’s bed
This definition is not done by someone else
2 : to return from death
This is the one that we are considering
3 : to take up arms
4 : to respond warmly : applaud —usually used with to
5 chiefly British : to end a session : adjourn
6 : to appear above the horizon
7 a : to move upward : ascend b : to increase in height, size, volume, or pitch
8 : to extend above other objects
9 a : to become heartened or elated b : to increase in fervor or intensity 10 a : to attain a higher level or rank b : to increase in quantity or number

 

[Bill_Pick]

Jharek, Ben may be right does he know that Our Lord Jesus Christ was a JEW.

 

[Spirithound]

If we need to raise something from somewhere, isn’t obvious that it requires a physical hands-on action? Therefore, the source is Logic. To rise no, there is no hands-on action. The sun, for example, rises; it is not raised. If Jesus had really resurrected, he would have risen and not been raised. To rise is inherent in the agent; to be raised, the action is remote from the agent.

If I need to raise something? Sure, I’m not telekinetic. God is.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Mystery of the Empty Tomb

All the four gospel writers are unanimous on it that the tomb was empty. But how it got empty is the answer we have got to find for the question.

Starting with Matthew, at the end of that Sabbath, which in Israel is at the sunset, Mary Magdalene with another Mary, went to see the tomb. Never mind that the tombstone was sealed and the guards were there to prevent the approach of any suspect. They either did not know it or the conspiracy to provide an eyewitness had backfired.

As the women arrived there, there was nothing of the sort. However, the writer of Matthew reports an earthquake, as an angel came down to move the tombstone, and sat on it. Who was inside the tomb? Nobody. The tomb was empty. Then, the angel addressed the women and said, “I know you are looking for Jesus. As you can see, he is not here.” The tomb was empty. Even the angel could not be used as an eyewitness, because when he removed the tombstone, the tomb was empty already. (Mat. 28:1-6)

Let us ask Mark about this. He says almost the same, except for the earthquake. When that Sabbath was over, the women brought perfumed oils to anoint Jesus’ body. They were worried only on how to remove the tombstone, which was huge. Never mind that it was sealed and kept by guards, because when they got there, they saw nothing of the sort. So much so that the stone was already removed and the tomb was empty, except for a youngman who was there, telling them that Jesus was not there. That he had been raised. He was right, because by the will of God one rises, but by the will of man one is raised. It means that someone had indeed removed Jesus from there. (Mark 16:1-6)

How about Luke? What did he have to say? That the tombstone was removed, the tomb was empty, but there were two guys asking why the women were looking for the living among the dead. And that Jesus had been raised. Mind you, not risen but raised. The women went to tell the disciples, and they refused to believe their “nonsense and idle tale,” as those were their very words. Probably, Jesus had never mentioned such a thing about himself. (Luke 24:1-11)

Last but not least, we have John, who brought to the tomb only Mary Magdalene. The tombstone was removed as usual, and the tomb was indeed empty. All that Mary could think of, was that Jesus had been taken from the tomb. They all probably had never heard about resurrection. Mary remained at the tomb crying her eyes out. Then, to a guy there, whom she thought was the Gardener, she asked to let her know where he had put Jesus’ body, so that she could take it away with her, if he had been the one who had removed Jesus from there. It means that Mary had come to the tomb with the intention to remove Jesus from there. Bad luck for her, because obviously Joseph of Arimathea had done the removal during the first hours of Friday night. (John 20:1-15)

As we all can see, the mystery is not in the empty tomb but in the how the tomb got empty. Quite easy to solve if we try to understand the difference between rising and being raised, and the inconsistency among the four gospel writers on reporting the “idle tale” of the resurrection. (Luke 24:11)

Ben

The mystery is exactly that - a mystery. That is the correct answer to your question. You’ve answered in your own title. “Why seek the Living One among the dead ?”​

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5433112:

**So much so good, Ben. I have made some of your words extra bold. I personally wanted to know about the recent or very old custom of the Jews to perfume the dead body before burial. Is there such a custom?. Or there used to be any custom in the very old times?. After all, the ladies mentioned who came to perfume the body of Jesus could not be doing something seriously wrong, unless Jesus was alive.

If a dead man (a Jew) is not applied with medicines (Herbs) by the hands of ladies then the ladies (Mostly Mary Magd.) were doing something wrong. Please tell all about the Jewish custom of that time about anointing the dead body. Thanks.**

**Hi Planten, I have no recollection of any mention of dead body anointing in the Scriptures. But since it’s done in our modern times, I assume that the practice comes from ancient times. There are cases of VIP’s being even embalmed as were Jacob and Joseph but as an Egyptian custom, not Jewish.

The anointing of a living person, in the case of Jesus by Mary, in the symbolical purpose for burial and the anointing after the body is buried, was never done, I have never heard of, and I wonder where the gospel writer got the idea from. It’s even forbidden to disturb the dead for whatever purpose, let alone to anoint the body.

Now, Platen, as I can see, we stand on the same side of this debate with Christians. Anyone can see my reason: The subject is Jewish, the main personage is Jewish, and it is Judaism which is being threatened with Hellenistic-Christian interpolations, which justify my position. But just from curiosity, how would you explain your standing in this fight? You are a Muslim, I assume. What possibly could be the reason to justify your controversial position vis-a-vis the alleged resurrection of Jesus? Don’t make me wrong. You do present excellent points, which even help me think. But why? What is in there for you, to prove the Christian falacy of the doctrine of the resurrection?**

 

[planten]

Reply to planten;

**Hi Planten, I have no recollection of any mention of dead body anointing in the Scriptures. But since it’s done in our modern times, I assume that the practice comes from ancient times. There are cases of VIP’s being even embalmed as were Jacob and Joseph but as an Egyptian custom, not Jewish.

The anointing of a living person, in the case of Jesus by Mary, in the symbolical purpose for burial and the anointing after the body is buried, was never done, I have never heard of, and I wonder where the gospel writer got the idea from. It’s even forbidden to disturb the dead for whatever purpose, let alone to anoint the body.**]/color]

**Thanks for the reply. I had asked you about annointing because I heard from some reliable source that a dead body was never disturbed (applied with herbs). You have confirmed it. The Case of Jacob and Joseph is different. Jacob had died in Egypt and it was a long way to home country. The technique of embalming was available in Egypt. So Jacob was embalmed to make his body safe from rotting so that he was carried away safely with full honor to home country (land of his ancestors).

Joseph was embalmed because he did not want to be left in Egypt. He had told his people and said “When you go from here, do not leave me here (in Egypt).” That meant, he knew that children of Israel will not remain in Egypt for ever. They will have to leave that country sometime and they will have to leave for their promised homeland. So Joseph took an oath from his people they will take his body away with them when they will go back. So his body had to be balmed.**

** Now, Platen, as I can see, we stand on the same side of this debate with Christians. Anyone can see my reason: The subject is Jewish, the main personage is Jewish, and it is Judaism which is being threatened with Hellenistic-Christian interpolations, which justify my position. But just from curiosity, how would you explain your standing in this fight? You are a Muslim, I assume. What possibly could be the reason to justify your controversial position vis-a-vis the alleged resurrection of Jesus? Don’t make me wrong. You do present excellent points, which even help me think. But why? What is in there for you, to prove the Christian falacy of the doctrine of the resurrection?**

** Ben I will try to reply fully in some next post. I do not believe that Jesus died on the cross. He had simply fainted. When Jesus did not die, there was no Resurrection as it is being preached. It was only a revival.

I very much agree with you about Jesus being a Jew. Never mind the Jews did not accept him. But he belonged to the Jews. He was no more than a man sent by God. (You may not believe that)… But he was your man, had come for your people. He never intended to start a new religion. But it always happens that when there is a severe opposition, there is always a split and new faiths develop.

As a Muslim, I do not believe that any dead person whose soul is captured (Meaning he died), I do not believe that man can come back to life. There is no law for such things. Quran is explicit about it that dead men do not come back to this world. Otherwise there would be some law by which they could claim their wife and children and property.

Dead men do not come back. Jesus was alive all the time. That is why he was seen walking and talking after the incident of the cross.

I will try to give my opinion in another post too. Thanks for asking.**

 

[SteveLohr]

Reply to planten;
**

Dead men do not come back. Jesus was alive all the time. That is why he was seen walking and talking after the incident of the cross.

I will try to give my opinion in another post too. Thanks for asking.**

Planten-If you believe that Jesus was alive when he was taken down from the cross, how do you respond to my post #98 (reproduced below):

Jesus was dead when He was taken from the cross. See
Dr. William Edwards “On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ” JAMA March 21, 1986, vol. 256. A copy is at:
cfpeople.org/apologetics/page51a024.html

or

godandscience.org/apologetics/deathjesus.pdf

If He had merely lapsed into unconsciousnesss, that does not explain the reactions of his diciples to his post-resurrection appearance. Assuming He merely swooned and later appeared to his disciples, he would have been a physically broken man who would have merely aroused pity. What the disciples describe is not a physically broken man, but a man who appears to be both fully restored and gloriously changed. There is no evidence that the post-resurrection Jesus was under any physical disability. Note that these appearances all took place within 50 days of his crucifixion, which would have left insufficient time for any healing of this magnitude under the medical treatment available then (or now).

Further, all participants, both Roman and Jew, believed He was dead at the time. Pilate even asked the Centurion to confirm He was dead, as He died very quickly. The fact that highly trained Roman troops in fact confirmed He was dead, that all particpants and eyewitnesses agree He was dead, and that the physical evidence as decribed by the eyewitness John is consistent with Him being dead clearly demonstrates that He was in fact dead.

Regards,
Steve Lohr

{Note: and now for something completely different. See youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218 for another take on the ease of determining whether something is dead or not )

 

[Ben_Masada]

Reply to planten;

**Thanks for the reply. I had asked you about annointing because I heard from some reliable source that a dead body was never disturbed (applied with herbs). You have confirmed it. The Case of Jacob and Joseph is different. Jacob had died in Egypt and it was a long way to home country. The technique of embalming was available in Egypt. So Jacob was embalmed to make his body safe from rotting so that he was carried away safely with full honor to home country (land of his ancestors).

Joseph was embalmed because he did not want to be left in Egypt. He had told his people and said “When you go from here, do not leave me here (in Egypt).” That meant, he knew that children of Israel will not remain in Egypt for ever. They will have to leave that country sometime and they will have to leave for their promised homeland. So Joseph took an oath from his people they will take his body away with them when they will go back. So his body had to be balmed.**

I am in perfect agreement with you. Congratulations for your knowledge of he Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[planten]

Planten-If you believe that Jesus was alive when he was taken down from the cross, how do you respond to my post #98 (reproduced below):

Jesus was dead when He was taken from the cross. See
Dr. William Edwards “On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ” JAMA March 21, 1986, vol. 256. A copy is at:
cfpeople.org/apologetics/page51a024.html

or

godandscience.org/apologetics/deathjesus.pdf

If He had merely lapsed into unconsciousnesss, that does not explain the reactions of his diciples to his post-resurrection appearance. Assuming He merely swooned and later appeared to his disciples, he would have been a physically broken man who would have merely aroused pity. What the disciples describe is not a physically broken man, but a man who appears to be both fully restored and gloriously changed. There is no evidence that the post-resurrection Jesus was under any physical disability. Note that these appearances all took place within 50 days of his crucifixion, which would have left insufficient time for any healing of this magnitude under the medical treatment available then (or now).

Further, all participants, both Roman and Jew, believed He was dead at the time. Pilate even asked the Centurion to confirm He was dead, as He died very quickly. The fact that highly trained Roman troops in fact confirmed He was dead, that all particpants and eyewitnesses agree He was dead, and that the physical evidence as decribed by the eyewitness John is consistent with Him being dead clearly demonstrates that He was in fact dead.

Regards,
Steve Lohr

{Note: and now for something completely different. See youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218 for another take on the ease of determining whether something is dead or not )

**Steve, I cannot enter into this controversy because my reply hurts the christians. I cannotreply to you with full strength at present.But i will try to come back with better proofs that jesus did not die. He never died. I just recently read a few words “Why are you looking for the living amongst the dead…” These seem to be the words of Jesus. The problem is that Muslims believe Jesus never died.Christians believe that Jesus died but lived again.

My argument is that God did not want Jesus to die. An angel visited the wife of Pilate and warned her that jesus whould not be harmed. That is enough (message) for me becaus eit is from God. It is telling the will of God. So Jesus cannot die.
2. Pilate did not want that jesus should die. 3. When asked about the body of Jesus,Pilate said," Has he died so quickly?"
4. God never dies.

pilate was on the good side of Jesus against Jesus enemies. Pilate tried his best not to pass the death sentence on Jesus.But he was coward and he became afraid that the Jews will report him to the Emperor. So he passed the sentence and washed his hands.

He had surely given special instructions to the guards (The Centurian). Otherwise, what reason did the Centurian have to say about Jesus, “Oh, surely he was a man of God.”

I had given you a good hint that nobody there could say that Jesus was alive, even if he was alive. Do you believe that or not, please? There was no point in saying that Jesus was alive. That would have been very dngerous.So every one said, “Oh he has died.” that was the best. There were no disciples of Jesus there (except perhaps one only.)

I have to consider the Quran too. It says that Jesus did not die on the cross. He appeared to be dead. It also says “They could not kill him in any way.” Allah had promised and informed Jesus that his prayer of the garden is accepted. That He (God) will take away the cup from him. He will die a natural death and not a death on the cross. That is Quran. So what can I do?
I will try to read your post carefuly and then i will prepare a reply for you. But, no harm. I will not preach anti-christian doctrine here, except what I have done now. Not again, please. **

 

[Bill_Pick]

Reply to planten;

**Thanks for the reply. I had asked you about annointing because I heard from some reliable source that a dead body was never disturbed (applied with herbs). You have confirmed it. The Case of Jacob and Joseph is different. Jacob had died in Egypt and it was a long way to home country. The technique of embalming was available in Egypt. So Jacob was embalmed to make his body safe from rotting so that he was carried away safely with full honor to home country (land of his ancestors).

Joseph was embalmed because he did not want to be left in Egypt. He had told his people and said “When you go from here, do not leave me here (in Egypt).” That meant, he knew that children of Israel will not remain in Egypt for ever. They will have to leave that country sometime and they will have to leave for their promised homeland. So Joseph took an oath from his people they will take his body away with them when they will go back. So his body had to be balmed.**

** Ben I will try to reply fully in some next post. I do not believe that Jesus died on the cross. He had simply fainted. When Jesus did not die, there was no Resurrection as it is being preached. It was only a revival.

I very much agree with you about Jesus being a Jew. Never mind the Jews did not accept him. But he belonged to the Jews. He was no more than a man sent by God. (You may not believe that)… But he was your man, had come for your people. He never intended to start a new religion. But it always happens that when there is a severe opposition, there is always a split and new faiths develop.

As a Muslim, I do not believe that any dead person whose soul is captured (Meaning he died), I do not believe that man can come back to life. There is no law for such things. Quran is explicit about it that dead men do not come back to this world. Otherwise there would be some law by which they could claim their wife and children and property.

Dead men do not come back. Jesus was alive all the time. That is why he was seen walking and talking after the incident of the cross.

I will try to give my opinion in another post too. Thanks for asking.**

Lets look at the last line here in Planten post and we can see he is just given us his opinion and we all know what a opinion is, so why read them,maybe in time He will be able to give us some FACTS and then we will listen. As we can see Planten is just giving us his opinions,and we do NOT need any more opinions

 

[adrift]

Reply to planten;

Thanks for the reply. I had asked you about annointing because I heard from some reliable source that a dead body was never disturbed (applied with herbs). You have confirmed it. /COLOR]

:hypno:He did what:hypno:

Hi Planten, I have no recollection of any mention of dead body anointing in the Scriptures. But** since it’s done in our modern times, I assume that the practice comes from ancient times.**

 

[Bill_Pick]

BEN AND PLENTEL YOU BOTH CAN PUT IT TO REST HERE IS WHAT DOC HAVE TO SAY.
Reprinted from JAMA - The Journal of the American Medical Association

March 21, 1986, Volume 256

Copyright 1986, American Medical Association

By Permission of Mayo Foundation

ON THE PHYSICAL DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST

William D. Edwards, MD; Wesley J. Gabel, MDiv; Floyd E Hosmer, MS, AMI

From the Departments of Pathology (Dr. Edwards) and Medical Graphics (Mr. Hoamer), Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.; and the Homestead United Methodist Church, Rochester, Minn., and the West Bethel United Methodist Church, Bethel, Minn. (Pastor Gabel).

Reprint requests to Department of Pathology, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN 55905 (Dr. Edwards)

• Jesus of Nazareth underwent Jewish and Roman trials, was flogged, and was sentenced to death by crucifixion. The scourging produced deep stripelike lacerations and appreciable blood loss, and it probably set the stage for hypovolemic shock, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus was too weakened to carry the crossbar (patibulum) to Golgotha. At the site of crucifixion, his wrists were nailed to the patibulum and, after the patibulum was lifted onto the upright post (stipes), his feet were nailed to the stipes. The major pathophysiologic effect of crucifixion was an interference with normal respirations. Accordingly death resulted primarily from hypovolemic shock and exhaustion asphyxia. Jesus’ death was ensured by the thrust of a soldier’s spear into his side. Modern medical interpretation of the historical evidence indicate that Jesus was dead when taken down from the cross.

 

[Ben_Masada]

:hypno:He did what:hypno:

Doesn’t read like a confirmation to me:ehh:
Ossuaries were used at that time and are still being used. So I guess what you “heard” is incorrect. If you want to put forth that theory, cite a reliable source.

The Gospel writers either witnessed it themselves or got it from eye witnesses.
God can do what He wants He is not boxed in by what humans think should be done. Scripture is full of what humans think God should do and what God surprisingly does instead.:yup:

**Ossuaries are not anointed. And only in extreme cases are ossuaries disturbed too.

It is true that God can do what He wants, but He is not boxed either to do what humans wish He did or should do. Yes, you are right to say that the Scriptures are full of what humans think God should do like to impregnate a female human so that a man be born without the medium of a human father. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

BEN AND PLENTEL YOU BOTH CAN PUT IT TO REST HERE IS WHAT DOC HAVE TO SAY.
Reprinted from JAMA - The Journal of the American Medical Association

March 21, 1986, Volume 256

Copyright 1986, American Medical Association

By Permission of Mayo Foundation

ON THE PHYSICAL DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST

William D. Edwards, MD; Wesley J. Gabel, MDiv; Floyd E Hosmer, MS, AMI

From the Departments of Pathology (Dr. Edwards) and Medical Graphics (Mr. Hoamer), Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.; and the Homestead United Methodist Church, Rochester, Minn., and the West Bethel United Methodist Church, Bethel, Minn. (Pastor Gabel).

Reprint requests to Department of Pathology, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN 55905 (Dr. Edwards)

• Jesus of Nazareth underwent Jewish and Roman trials, was flogged, and was sentenced to death by crucifixion. The scourging produced deep stripelike lacerations and appreciable blood loss, and it probably set the stage for hypovolemic shock, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus was too weakened to carry the crossbar (patibulum) to Golgotha. At the site of crucifixion, his wrists were nailed to the patibulum and, after the patibulum was lifted onto the upright post (stipes), his feet were nailed to the stipes. The major pathophysiologic effect of crucifixion was an interference with normal respirations. Accordingly death resulted primarily from hypovolemic shock and exhaustion asphyxia. Jesus’ death was ensured by the thrust of a soldier’s spear into his side. Modern medical interpretation of the historical evidence indicate that Jesus was dead when taken down from the cross.

**You have missed a small detail. Josephus. He says that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews. And that the Romans had no different way to crucify a Jew from another Jew. It means that thousands of Jews were crucified in the very same manner Jesus was crucified, and scourging was a matter of Roman policy to break the resistence of the prospect who was condemned to the cross. The spear-piercing was not in the Roman agenda; and I am 99 percent sure that they never did it on Jesus. John fabricated the idea in order to document Jesus with Zechariah 12:10, which btw, has nothing to do with crucifixion.

Nevertheless, despite all your finds about your Medical research, Josephus reports that sometimes crucifieds would remain on their crosses even up to three or four days till they met death. And Jesus was taken off the cross after about four hours. The leg-breaking was done only when the next day was a Sabbath, especially if it was a High Sabbath. A Sabbath that coincided with a festival.**

 

[adrift]

Nevertheless, despite all your finds about your Medical research, Josephus reports that sometimes crucifieds would remain on their crosses even up to three or four days till they met death. And Jesus was taken off the cross after about four hours. The leg-breaking was done only when the next day was a Sabbath, especially if it was a High Sabbath. A Sabbath that coincided with a festival.

. Jesus was on the cross from 9 in the morning and He died at three in the afternoon. That is six hours not four.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Give it up Ben You are breaking up the wrong tree,You and Mr opinion

 

[adrift]

**Ossuaries are not anointed. And only in extreme cases are ossuaries disturbed too.

It is true that God can do what He wants, but He is not boxed either to do what humans wish He did or should do. Yes, you are right to say that the Scriptures are full of what humans think God should do like to impregnate a female human so that a man be born without the medium of a human father. **

What does anointing have to do with the subject? My point was that planten is saying that dead bodies weren’t approached. I know you know how an ossuaries were done so his statement is false. Your example is correct but not in the way you intended. It is a perfect example of what man says God couldn’t possibly do by trying to contain that which cannot be contained.

 

[Ben_Masada]

. Jesus was on the cross from 9 in the morning and He died at three in the afternoon. That is six hours not four.

Still enormously different from three or four days. The percentage to come out alive is still gigantic.