The Nature of Christ

[steveyb3]

Revelation is a book of signs and symbols. The martyrs were crying out in the same way that Abel’s blood called to God from the ground.

I am not a Gnostic.

The dubious verse in John is not found in any manuscripts before the third century. It is not inspired.

 

[John7]

As well as this, look at the corruption of John 1 in some translations. It clearly says "This was the same in the beginning. Most have changed it to He was with God in the beginning- totally different.

John 1:2

ουτος = ‘this’ or ‘this one’ or simply ‘he’ since the demonstrative pronoun is nom. masculine
ην = ‘was’
εν = ‘in’
αρχη = (the) ‘beginning’
προς = pros with the accusative can be ‘with/to/toward’
τον θεον = ‘God’

so John 1:2 should read

“This one (He) was in the beginning with God.”

“This was the same in the beginning” is a dorky translation, nobody who knows even a little Greek grammar would translate the verse this way.

 

[sixofseven]

We have to remember that Ecclesiastes was written before Christ proclaimed the Kingdom of Heaven, but also the author specifically says our spirit returns to God Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Take a look at this article catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9504otg.asp

Quote:
Although the Preacher contributes to the religious education of the people of the Old Covenant by making them reflect on their own destiny, he is still far from the teaching that Jesus Christ would bring about three centuries later in his Sermon on the Mount:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you” (Matt. 5:3-12).

Do you not believe that we humans are both spiritual and physical beings? We have a body that dies and a soul and lives and at the second coming and the final judgement is when our bodies will be reuinited with our souls.

 

[Techno2000]

Revelation is a book of signs and symbols. The martyrs were crying out in the same way that Abel’s blood called to God from the ground.

I am not a Gnostic.

The dubious verse in John is not found in any manuscripts before the third century. It is not inspired.

It doesn’t say their Blood cried out, its says they cried out.

 

[sixofseven]

It doesn’t say their Blood cried out, its says they cried out.

jmcrae in another thread kindly referred me to Luke 15

3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then **he calls his friends and neighbors **together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you that **in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents **than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

So steveyb3, can you tell me by your belief, if believers don’t go to Heaven when they die, who IS in heaven? Is it just God and the angels?

 

[shawn38]

No, I am a Christadelphian, not a Jehovah’s Witness. Christadelphians have some things in common with JW’s but lots of things different.

How does a Chirstadephian obtain salvation if you don’t believe in the atoning work of Christ?

Is one of tenets of Christadephia that the Bible is “the inerrant and infallible Word of God"? Does Christadelphianism deny the following?

the doctrine of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)1 (Matthew 28:19).
Jesus’ existence prior to His incarnation2 (Revelation 1:8).
Jesus is God in flesh3 (Colossians 2:9).
Jesus died in our place for sin4 (1 Peter 2:24).
the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit5 (John 16:13-15).
salvation by grace through faith alone6 (Ephesians 2:8).
the immortality of the soul, that a person exists after death7 (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).
the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer (Satan)8 (Luke 10:18).
the existence of hell and eternal punishment9 (Matthew 25:41, 46).

 

[ralphinal]

Ralphinal, Jesus was given authority to forgive sins as he was the Son of God. The rest of the verse clearly says the men praised God (the Father who was in Heaven, not on earth) who had given authority to men. Jesus was the man (not God) who God (the Father) had given authority to forgive sins.

The disciples worshiped Jesus as the Son of God. To claim he is the Son of God is a form of worship. They did not worship him as Creator of Heaven and earth. Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator of Heaven and earth who can be accessed by the mediatorship of the man (not God) of Jesus Christ.

Two points. First, as you know, there have been other holy men before Jesus in the Bible. NOne of them forgave sins or told anyone else that they could, too. Why was Jesus different?

Second, if I read your last paragraph correctly, the apostles worshiped Jesus. Either JEsus is God or the Apostles and others are guilty of having a false idol. It does not matter in what role they worshiped him. The fact is that, according to what you just posted, the early Church worshipped a MAN

 

[sixofseven]

Sorry steveyb3, I don’t mean to come across on the attack or anything, I’m just a littel confused and I’m trying to understand where your beliefs come from.

Jesus did no miracles before he had the Holy Spirit.

How do you know? Jesus didn’t start his mission until he was 30 years old! His first miracle was at a wedding, at the request of his mother - why did his mother know to notify him that there was no wine, how did she know he could do something about it?

People do not possess the Holy Spirit today, it was a temporary gift.

Where do you get this from? When I was baptised and confirmed I received the Holy Spirit, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. **1 Corinthians 6:19 **Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

The bread and wine are representative of Christ’s body and blood.

Jesus himself said, this IS my body - no word ‘representation’ appears…

Christ cannot be 100% man and 100% God.

Why not?

Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Yes, I agree here

However, being baptized into Christ’s death is only beneficiary if Jesus shared the same nature as ours.

which he did, he was 100% man, 100% God. That is how much God loves us - so much that He sent His Son to die for our sins.

If he was a God that had to atone for his immaculate nature (why?) then the baptism does not relate to us who have sinful flesh that needs atoning for.

He didn’t atone for HIS immaculate nature, he atoned for OUR SINFUL nature.

You cannot be both God and man.

Again, why not?

God is Spirit, man is flesh. Jesus was flesh as he died.

You are trying to limit God to exsist ONLY as a spirit. He’s God! He can do, be, say whatever He wants!

The “Mother Church” did not give me the Bible. God inspired the writers of the Holy Scriptures.

Which “Mother Church” deemed as such - who would have told you they were inspired if the Church didn’t?

Can you help me out here?

 

[shawn38]

Revelation is a book of signs and symbols. The martyrs were crying out in the same way that Abel’s blood called to God from the ground.

I am not a Gnostic.

The dubious verse in John is not found in any manuscripts before the third century. It is not inspired.

The Gnostics died out long ago. Now the issue is Ecumenism.

Revelations is more than just a book of signs and symbols. It’s a book about the end times. The signs and symbols are given to help us understand when things come to pass. Blessed is he who reads and understands we’re told.

Of all I’ve read, I don’t recall an issue being chapters and verses being added to the Bible, the issue with the later Codex’s and other Bible versions was the deletion of verses. This is why the KJV looked to the 5000 plus Greek Byzantine manuscripts.

 

[Lapey]

Matt Slick does us a disservice there. Christadelphians and myself included do not say the Trinity doctrine was not around until the Council of Nicea. In my (unedited) post, I said it was confirmed at Nicea.

Thank you for the early church references.

“O Lord God almighty… I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever.” No where in this lovely statement of faith is the Trinity mentioned. The praise of God the Father is mentioned as coming through (the mediatorship) of the Son, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is said to have glory and yes, the power of God is glorious. The mention of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the same sentence does not prove a Trinity. Nothing descriptive such as, co-equal or co-eternal occurs. Note the praise goes to the Father through the Son.

“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.” I do not see how this is used as evidence for a Trinity. Please elaborate.You are right, I dont see the trinity either.

As far as I am aware, Ignatius has letters attributed to him which were not written by him.I would beg to differ with you and agree with the majority of early writtings scolars who say this is authentic.

“one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father.” Note one Father, not three in one. One Christ Jesus, not three in one. Son of God- not God the Son. The Holy Spirit is not spoken of as a person of part of the Godhead. Jesus is called Lord and God after his resurrection, when he is a partaker of the divine nature. Jesus is now a partaker in Theos as the immortalized Saints will be in the future.
You cant see evidence of trinity here??? Realy?
Tertullian is after the first century. As is Origen. Ok, so if one is to demonstrate a time line, post first century doesn’t count? You change the rules as you go dont you. Can you say indoctrination?

The Trinity is not in the Bible.Yes it is, but you are trained to NOT see it! It was taught before the Council of Nicea. Anyone who denies this is misinformed. Please accept apologies you dont owh me an apology, you owe yourself one.on their behalf from me if you have heard a Christadelphian say it was not taught before 324/5. It was confirmed as Orthodox at Nicea. It was not taught in the first century though.

Ralphinal, Jesus was given authority to forgive sins as he was the Son of God. The rest of the verse clearly says the men praised God (the Father who was in Heaven, not on earth) who had given authority to men. Jesus was the man (not God) who God (the Father) had given authority to forgive sins.

The disciples worshiped Jesus as the Son of God. To claim he is the Son of God is a form of worship. They did not worship him as Creator of Heaven and earth. Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator of Heaven and earth who can be accessed by the mediatorship of the man (not God) of Jesus Christ

.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben J, how does Jesus saying I and the Father are one imply a Trinity. There is no Holy Spirit mentioned.

Yes, the Holy Spirit was mentioned. (Jn 14:25-26, Acts 1:4-5)

I suggest you continue reading the Gospel after you pause to take your breathe because the revelations there are actually breath taking … .

If Jesus said I am Co-Equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, we are the three parts of the one Godhead then that would be a Trinity.

That is your own theory to assume it is the only way the Trinity can be explained and established. Sorry but the Gospel was not written to fit into individual’s theory and asumption but it is a revelation. It is because it is.

As it is, Jesus said that he and the Father are one. One in purpose, one in mind, one in character.

Wrong. He and the Father are one because they are of the same origin and nature. Thus if you see Jesus, you have seen the Father.

Jesus was God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16) but not God incarnated in the flesh.

Wrong again. He was God incarnated in the flesh. Please understand the word ‘flesh’ which essentially means human being. God incarnates as human being.

Jesus was given power to forgive sins as he was the Son of God. God was in Heaven (Matt 6:9) and God is greater than Christ (Matt 19:17). You cannot be both God and man.

This is twisted logic, an inablity to understand the thrust of the Biblical messages though of course you can say the same about me except that as I said I look to mother Church to interpret for me the message of the Bible.

Unless you are a Muslim who thought that Christians believe God has a son and a wife … The power to forgive is God’s prerogative and no one else. And so Jesus is God.

God is Spirit, man is flesh. Jesus was flesh as he died. God cannot die. Jesus now cannot die as he has been given immortality by God.

As far as that statement goes, that’s the belief of Christianity. I have no problem with it.

The “Mother Church” did not give me the Bible. God inspired the writers of the Holy Scriptures.

Yes, she does.

You would not have it if not for her.

How do you know which writers were inspired? Who decided which writers were inspired? The Church decided, through the (name removed by moderator)iration of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel writers, the apostles and the priests who made the Church were the Church.

God bless you.

 

[steveyb3]

Immortal soul is not in the Bible. It comes from Greek philosophy. Not sure about the Ecclesiastes verse but it can’t mean what you think it means as that would contradict Jesus saying no man has entered heaven in John 3:14. The Kingdom of Heaven is the restored Kingdom of Israel as a fulfilment of the promises to the Patriarchs and David. The reward is in Heaven at the moment yes. Jesus says my reward is with me. You get the reward when Jesus returns. The New Jerusalem is the reward. It ascends down from Heaven onto the earth. Then God (the Father) dwells on earth with believers. No one has the right to enter the Holy of Holies except Jesus who entered in by his own blood. Only the High Priest can enter the Holy of Holies.

I believe the only people in Heaven are God (the Father), Jesus Christ (his Son) and the Angels. No one went to Heaven before Jesus (John 3:14). David did not ascend to Heaven.

I believe in the atoning work of Christ.

The Bible is the inerrant Word of God yes. Matthew 28:19 says nothing about a Trinity. Please don’t understand me. I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That does not mean they are co-equal, co-eternal three-in-one Godhead. I have explained Jesus’ “preexistence”. I have explained God manifestation. Jesus did not die in our place. He didn’t die instead of us (we all still die and still need forgiveness, God did not have to be paid to forgive us), he died for us, as a representative (not substitutional) sacrifice. The Holy Spirit is not a person. It is sometimes personified when talking about God. If the Holy Spirit is a person then Jesus is the Son of the Holy Spirit, not the Son of God. Faith alone cannot save- Luther was wrong. Salvation is ultimately be faith in the grace of God. If you sit in a room doing nothing and have faith then that faith is dead and is no faith at all (James). There is no immortality of the soul. The Greek word means life as does the Hebrew word. Check these verses out. “Adam became a living soul”. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Lucifer is not a fallen Angel, nor is Satan. Isaiah 14 says clearly, take up this lament against the King of Babylon. Satan just means adversary. In the Old Testament, God moved David to take a census of Israel. In the parallel record it says Satan moved David to take a census of Israel. God was acting as an adversary to David. God was a Satan to David. Peter acted as a Satan to Jesus when he had in mind the things of the flesh rather than the things of God. Hell is the valley of Hinnom (gehenna). It is the place where the Jews burnt their rubbish and dead animals etc. To go into hell would mean instant death (if you fell into gehenna you would die). God does not punish people for eternity, that would be most unjust. 70 years of sin does not equate to eternal punishment. Rather, the wages of sin is death (not eternal punishment).

the doctrine of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)1 (Matthew 28:19).
Jesus’ existence prior to His incarnation2 (Revelation 1:8).
Jesus is God in flesh3 (Colossians 2:9).
Jesus died in our place for sin4 (1 Peter 2:24).
the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit5 (John 16:13-15).
salvation by grace through faith alone6 (Ephesians 2:8).
the immortality of the soul, that a person exists after death7 (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).
the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer (Satan)8 (Luke 10:18).
the existence of hell and eternal punishment9 (Matthew 25:41, 46).

Jesus could forgive sins as he was the Son of God. It was a special role for the Messiah whilst on earth. The Apostles worshipped Jesus as the Son of God. They didn’t worship him as the Creator of Heaven and earth (the Father).

No need to apologize sixofseven, everyone is being very respectful and we’re having a nice discussion

Jesus could do no miracles without the Holy Spirit as without the Power of God no one can do miracles. Elijah couldn’t without the Holy Spirit, neither could anyone else, including Jesus. 1 Cor 6:19 is concerning people at the time who possessed the Holy Spirit. Jesus warns in the Gospel of John numerous times not to take things too literally. “How can a man enter a second time into his mothers womb to be born?” etc. The bread and wine are representative. You cannot be 100% man and God because if you are 100% of one thing you can’t be anything else. You cannot be 100% employed and 100% unemployed. Jesus had to offer for himself (Hebrews 9) as well as us. I’ll do some research on the collation of the Bible but the Bible was around before the RCC.

Jesus warned of taking everything he said literally. When he said you have seen the Father, he meant you have seen the character of the Father. He taught many times saying the Father was in Heaven (not on earth) and that the Father was greater than I.

Jesus was the manifestation of God’s perfect character. Godhead cannot dwell in flesh. The fulness (character etc) can dwell in flesh as it did in Christ.

The Bible was around before the Catholic Church. Do you mean the RCC decided which NT books to put in? That is almost certainly true. The 39 books of the OT were around before the RCC.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Bible was around before the Catholic Church. Do you mean the RCC decided which NT books to put in? That is almost certainly true. The 39 books of the OT were around before the RCC.

You need to point out which Bible was that and why it was considered inspired. If you are holding the Bible which is the same as what I have in my hand now or perhaps minus the Deutero, it was put for you by the Church alright.

But why stop at 39, why not more? Do you know that not all ancient ‘scriptures’ make it to the Bible?

BTW, what type of Bible do you have? The Mormon’s is quite different though. And yes, the Church did not put up that.

 

[Techno2000]

Immortal soul is not in the Bible. It comes from Greek philosophy. Not sure about the Ecclesiastes verse but it can’t mean what you think it means as that would contradict Jesus saying no man has entered heaven in John 3:14. The Kingdom of Heaven is the restored Kingdom of Israel as a fulfilment of the promises to the Patriarchs and David. The reward is in Heaven at the moment yes. Jesus says my reward is with me. You get the reward when Jesus returns. The New Jerusalem is the reward. It ascends down from Heaven onto the earth. Then God (the Father) dwells on earth with believers. No one has the right to enter the Holy of Holies except Jesus who entered in by his own blood. Only the High Priest can enter the Holy of Holies.

I believe the only people in Heaven are God (the Father), Jesus Christ (his Son) and the Angels. No one went to Heaven before Jesus (John 3:14). David did not ascend to Heaven.

I believe in the atoning work of Christ.

The Bible is the inerrant Word of God yes. Matthew 28:19 says nothing about a Trinity. Please don’t understand me. I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That does not mean they are co-equal, co-eternal three-in-one Godhead. I have explained Jesus’ “preexistence”. I have explained God manifestation. Jesus did not die in our place. He didn’t die instead of us (we all still die and still need forgiveness, God did not have to be paid to forgive us), he died for us, as a representative (not substitutional) sacrifice. The Holy Spirit is not a person. It is sometimes personified when talking about God. If the Holy Spirit is a person then Jesus is the Son of the Holy Spirit, not the Son of God. Faith alone cannot save- Luther was wrong. Salvation is ultimately be faith in the grace of God. If you sit in a room doing nothing and have faith then that faith is dead and is no faith at all (James). There is no immortality of the soul. The Greek word means life as does the Hebrew word. Check these verses out. “Adam became a living soul”. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Lucifer is not a fallen Angel, nor is Satan. Isaiah 14 says clearly, take up this lament against the King of Babylon. Satan just means adversary. In the Old Testament, God moved David to take a census of Israel. In the parallel record it says Satan moved David to take a census of Israel. God was acting as an adversary to David. God was a Satan to David. Peter acted as a Satan to Jesus when he had in mind the things of the flesh rather than the things of God. Hell is the valley of Hinnom (gehenna). It is the place where the Jews burnt their rubbish and dead animals etc. To go into hell would mean instant death (if you fell into gehenna you would die). God does not punish people for eternity, that would be most unjust. 70 years of sin does not equate to eternal punishment. Rather, the wages of sin is death (not eternal punishment).

the doctrine of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)1 (Matthew 28:19).
Jesus’ existence prior to His incarnation2 (Revelation 1:8).
Jesus is God in flesh3 (Colossians 2:9).
Jesus died in our place for sin4 (1 Peter 2:24).
the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit5 (John 16:13-15).
salvation by grace through faith alone6 (Ephesians 2:8).
the immortality of the soul, that a person exists after death7 (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).
the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer (Satan)8 (Luke 10:18).
the existence of hell and eternal punishment9 (Matthew 25:41, 46).

Jesus could forgive sins as he was the Son of God. It was a special role for the Messiah whilst on earth. The Apostles worshipped Jesus as the Son of God. They didn’t worship him as the Creator of Heaven and earth (the Father).

No need to apologize sixofseven, everyone is being very respectful and we’re having a nice discussion

Jesus could do no miracles without the Holy Spirit as without the Power of God no one can do miracles. Elijah couldn’t without the Holy Spirit, neither could anyone else, including Jesus. 1 Cor 6:19 is concerning people at the time who possessed the Holy Spirit. Jesus warns in the Gospel of John numerous times not to take things too literally. “How can a man enter a second time into his mothers womb to be born?” etc. The bread and wine are representative. You cannot be 100% man and God because if you are 100% of one thing you can’t be anything else. You cannot be 100% employed and 100% unemployed. Jesus had to offer for himself (Hebrews 9) as well as us. I’ll do some research on the collation of the Bible but the Bible was around before the RCC.

Jesus warned of taking everything he said literally. When he said you have seen the Father, he meant you have seen the character of the Father. He taught many times saying the Father was in Heaven (not on earth) and that the Father was greater than I.

Jesus was the manifestation of God’s perfect character. Godhead cannot dwell in flesh. The fulness (character etc) can dwell in flesh as it did in Christ.

The Bible was around before the Catholic Church. Do you mean the RCC decided which NT books to put in? That is almost certainly true. The 39 books of the OT were around before the RCC.

Personal Interpretation destroys The Word of God !

 

[Lapey]

Numbers 11:25-29

1. The LORD then came down in the cloud and spoke to him. Taking some of the spirit that was on Moses, he bestowed it on the seventy elders; and as the spirit came to rest on them, they prophesied.
2. Now two men, one named Eldad and the other Medad, were not in the gathering but had been left in the camp. They too had been on the list, but had not gone out to the tent; yet the spirit came to rest on them also, and they prophesied in the camp.
3. So, when a young man quickly told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp,”
4. Joshua, son of Nun, who from his youth had been Moses’ aide, said, “Moses, my lord, stop them.”
5. But Moses answered him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the people of the LORD were prophets! Would that the LORD might bestow his spirit on them all!”

The Lord bestowed His Spirit on these people, were they now equal to Jesus? 100% man with the Spirit of God anointing them. That is basically what you have stated, unless you are inconsistent in your talk.

Your statement about Jesus not being 100% man and 100% God has human limitation attached to the Son of God. Your words are “you cannot be 100% man and 100% God…you cannot be 100% employed and 100% unemployed…”, this is correct. I cannot, but are you saying the Son of God, Jesus, cannot? This is where you err.

What is the difference in the raising of Lazarus and the raising of Jesus? Are both resurrections? Are both “raisings” the same?

1 Corinthians Chapter 6:9-20 - This is talking about immorality.

1. Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters
2. nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
3. That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
4. “Everything is lawful for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is lawful for me,” but I will not let myself be dominated by anything.
5. “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food,” but God will do away with both the one and the other. The body, however, is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body;
6. God raised the Lord and will also raise us by his power.
7. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take Christ’s members and make them the members of a prostitute? Of course not!
8. (Or) do you not know that anyone who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For “the two,” it says, “will become one flesh.”
9. But whoever is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
10. Avoid immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the immoral person sins against his own body.
11. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
12. For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body.

So do this chapter and especially this verse only pertain to the Church that St. Paul is addressing? Are their bodies only “temples of the Holy Spirit” until the ceasing as you pointed out in an earlier post?

“I believe the only people in Heaven are God (the Father), Jesus Christ (his Son) and the Angels. No one went to Heaven before Jesus (John 3:14). David did not ascend to Heaven.”

2 Kings 2:7-11 -

1. Fifty of the guild prophets followed, and when the two stopped at the Jordan, stood facing them at a distance.
2. Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up and struck the water, which divided, and both crossed over on dry ground.
3. When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask for whatever I may do for you, before I am taken from you.” Elisha answered, “May I receive a double portion of your spirit.”
4. “You have asked something that is not easy,” he replied. “Still, if you see me taken up from you, your wish will be granted; otherwise not.”
5. As they walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

So I take it you believe Elijah is an angel, or is he the Son of God? I’m confused……

“Jesus warns in the Gospel of John numerous times not to take things too literally. “How can a man enter a second time into his mothers womb to be born?” etc.”

This is not Jesus warning anyone about anything, it is Nicodemus asking Jesus for clarification of a point he did not understand. On that note, where in John 6 does Jesus warn us about taking Him too literally; also when He noticed most everyone, all but the twelve, leaving why didn’t he call them back saying they were taking this teaching too literal?

The bible, old and new, is filled with stories of God, “thinning the herd” so to speak. Is this one instance of this?

Can’t you see a hint of inconsistency in what you have been taught, just a little? Don’t you want to know the other side of this doctrine you have been taught?

I am at a loss of how to understand how you can believe some of this, Lucifer is not Satan, but David and Peter are?

Help!!!

 

[steveyb3]

Christadelphians mainly use the King James Version. I use numerous translations and usually go back into the original Hebrew and Greek.

Techno, everyone has a personal interpretation of the Bible. The idea that Mary should be worshiped is a personal interpretation of the Bible.

People who have the Spirit of God put on them could do miracles, just like Jesus. Jesus was greater than these men as he is the Son of God. One greater than Solomon is here. Jesus is worthy of greater honour than Moses (Hebrews).

The raising of Lazarus was a temporal resurrection. Jesus resurrection was a resurrection of immortality.

No we are temples of the Holy Spirit. It is a phrase. We can’t take everything literally. A perfect example is in the verse you gave. We are members of Christ. Does that make us Deity too? Obviously not- it is a phrase showing that we should declare God’s power in our lives.

Elijah did not go into Heaven. John 3:14. He was taken from this life as was Enoch. Enoch and Elijah are dead, awaiting the resurrection which will take place when Jesus returns to the earth.

Jesus teaches not to take things too literally when he says beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and the disciples thought he was talking about bread. Also when he said he would destroy the temple and raise it in three days. Figurative talk.

I don’t see any consistency in what I have been taught. When one takes the whole Bible (not just the New Testament) there is one consistent message. There is one God, one Messiah, the Holy Spirit is God’s power, the Kingdom of God is the land promised to Abraham and David, man is mortal, the enemy is the flesh (not a fallen angel). All of this can be explained scripturally and historically.

Concerning Satan, check out 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1. Anyone can act as a Satan (an adversary). When Peter opposed Christ, Jesus said get behind me, Satan. God was acting as a Satan to David on this occasion. Isaiah 14 is addressing the King of Babylon who was in heaven (had political power) and has fallen.

 

[Lapey]

This in fact makes us part of His body. This entire chapter is about immorality and the fact that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and we should treat them as such. It says not what you use it for, to defend heretical teaching. Paul was not only talking to certain people, who had the Spirit of God with them temporarily, he spoke to all, and he speaks to me now.

“Elijah did not go into Heaven. John 3:14. He was taken from this life as was Enoch. Enoch and Elijah are dead, awaiting the resurrection which will take place when Jesus returns to the earth.”

Was he dead before, but not during, then again after the Transfiguration narrative? You have to really go out on a limb to believe as you do, I admire your level of faith, although misinformed.

What about the Saints who are said to have walked the streets after the veil was torn in the temple?

Matt. 27:51-53
“The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

“Jesus teaches not to take things too literally when he says beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and the disciples thought he was talking about bread. Also when he said he would destroy the temple and raise it in three days. Figurative talk.”

The Pharisees taught the perverted word and law, the Church teaches Gods Word and Laws, the commandments. When the disciples thought it was bread, didn’t Jesus correct them?

Most bible scholars would disagree with you about destroying the temple and rebuilding it in three days, there is a twist however, He spoke of the temple of His body not the building in which the Jews worshiped. This was accomplished by Jesus allowing Himself to be scourged, crucified and He resurrected Himself. So what’s not literal about what Jesus tells me and you in this passage?

“I don’t see any consistency in what I have been taught. When one takes the whole Bible (not just the New Testament) there is one consistent message. There is one God, one Messiah, the Holy Spirit is God’s power, the Kingdom of God is the land promised to Abraham and David, man is mortal, the enemy is the flesh (not a fallen angel). All of this can be explained scripturally and historically.”

I do not see any “consistency” in what you have been taught either. I know that’s not what you meant, so I’ll take that as a typo.

There must be another typo here, as you have listed evidence of the Trinity!!! So we can agree. (a little sarcasm here)

So if we are mere mortals, with no eternal soul, then what’s the point of religion or God? There is nothing to lose, nothing to gain.

As far as taking the whole bible, that is precisely what the Catholic Church has always done, in its entirety in its context. There is no other way to arrive at the truth. Very much can be explained in scripture and history, but when written words are taken out of context or changed in translation, there is very high risk of error, as in some of the issue we are discussing.

 

[John7]

I use numerous translations and usually go back into the original Hebrew and Greek.

Yeah right No answer to post #42.
You ‘go back to the original Greek’ and even then you get it wrong…interesting.
Tell us Stevey just what Greek do you go back to?

 

[Techno2000]

Techno, everyone has a personal interpretation of the Bible. The idea that Mary should be worshiped is a personal interpretation of the Bible.

Sorry, but you are wrong Catholic do not “worshiped” Mary as a God.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

 

[steveyb3]

The transfiguration was a vision of the Messiah interacting with the Law and the Prophets. Moses and Elijah were not in Heaven then and they are not in Heaven now. If David did not ascend to Heaven, neither did they.

The Saints that walked after Jesus’ resurrection were resurrected for a short space of time and then died again. This supports the Christadelphian view as they were sleeping in the dust of the ground, not residing in Heaven.

Jesus’ body is a figurative temple. He is not a literal temple made of stones.

Yes it was a typo. A very funny one at that!

We are mortal. We need to be made immortal to have fellowship with Yahweh. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” “Adam became a living soul.” “The wages of sin is death.” How can something that is immortal need atoning for? Our mortal nature needs atoning for.

Without intentionally causing offence, the Catholic Church does not use the Old Testament much at all, except for a few bits and bobs.

The idea that Mary is worthy of more attention than say, Rahab is a personal interpretation of the Bible.