The Nature of Christ

[steveyb3]

“Houtous” means “this” as in, “the same was in the beginning with God.”

The word being masculine does not make it a person. I answered your unanswered post. I feel post three is unanswered. Scriptural references please.

 

[Lapey]

The transfiguration was a vision of the Messiah interacting with the Law and the Prophets. Moses and Elijah were not in Heaven then and they are not in Heaven now. If David did not ascend to Heaven, neither did they.

The Saints that walked after Jesus’ resurrection were resurrected for a short space of time and then died again. This supports the Christadelphian view as they were sleeping in the dust of the ground, not residing in Heaven.

At the risk of sounding too biblely…how you like that word…where is that in scripture?

Jesus’ body is a figurative temple. He is not a literal temple made of stones.

That is true, but that is what that verse is talking about…Jesus is talking about Himself.

Yes it was a typo. A very funny one at that!

We are mortal. We need to be made immortal to have fellowship with Yahweh. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” “Adam became a living soul.” “The wages of sin is death.” How can something that is immortal need atoning for? Our mortal nature needs atoning for.

*Without intentionally causing offence, the Catholic Church does not use the Old Testament much at all, except for a few bits and bobs. *

This is just false, the Catholic Church teaches and preaches from the Old Testament every weekend, and in most daily masses. My pastor teaches in his homily on the old every time he preaches.

The idea that Mary is worthy of more attention than say, Rahab is a personal interpretation of the Bible.

No it is not, it is in the bible, Luke’s Gospel contains the Canticle of Mary, which is a beautiful song of praise of Mary. “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit proclaims the greatness of God my Savior…alll ages will call me blessed…”

Isnt that just a little more praise from scripture than Rahab? Letme see, Mother of the Massiah, or prostetute who hid spies (I have to confess I don’t jnow that much about her, but I will)? I’ll take Mary.

I thank you for your calm and thoughtful dialog, sometimes these discussions are not too loveing.

Later, got to go for now.

 

[Techno2000]

Testament much at all, except for a few bits and bobs.

The idea that Mary is worthy of more attention than say, Rahab is a personal interpretation of the Bible.

You have been misled by your personal interpretation man-made modern teachings you have no History to back you up on anything.

 

[sixofseven]

As I understand it, Christ’s atoning death enabled Heaven to be open for us. That is the great hope we now have through Him.

So that would explain why He said no one had seen Heaven, because He hadn’t died yet, the gates of Heaven hadn’t been opened to us yet.

Now granted the Bible says that Elijah was taken into heaven - and this happened before Christ’s death too but I simply put it down to this:

Who am I to say what God can and cannot do? If the Word of God says Elijah was taken to Heaven, then Elijah was taken to Heaven.

Christ also said, when He was on the cross, that the good thief would be with Him today in Paradise. Again, I just put that down to God can do whatever He wants and if He says the thief will be in Paradise, the thief will be in Paradise.

Remember, nothing is impossible with God! We are not greater than Him, we cannot say ‘that’s not possible’, ‘God can’t do that’, ‘But God said so and so before’ - human logic doesn’t apply to God. He cannot be contained.

We are physical and spiritual beings. God communicates with us through physical and spiritual means. We experience physical and spiritual hunger, physical and spiritual satisfaction, physical and spiritual grace.

This is what Jesus was talking about in John 6 - it is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail - the flesh, us, humans, our physical nature alone and our human understanding and logic will not reveal anything to us, we cannot rely on our own interpretation - it is the spirit that gives life - it is our FAITH that reveals these things to us, we need FAITH to believe, and when you submit to that faith and put your whole trust in God without question, that is freedom.

You may have heard of Scott Hahn steveyb3 - I recommed reading ‘Reasons to Believe’ - he goes through it all, logic and reason, Christ’s sonship, David’s kingship, the Kingdom of Israel, the Church, the Papal authority, the Mass etc etc. You will see how all of these things are intertwined throughout the entire Bible.

 

[Lapey]

“The idea that Mary is worthy of more attention than say, Rahab is a personal interpretation of the Bible.”

I am at a loss. How can you possibly compare Mary the Virgin Mother of Jesus, I won’t say God because you don’t believe He is God (but He is), to a harlett who sold out her own towns people because she found a way to save her own skin and the skin of her family?

Now you said that I as a Catholic put too much emphasis on the New Testamnet, I say you put too much on the Old. Either way you are way out of touch with reality.

Mary, inocent virgin, agreed to do the will of the Father and bring into the world the Massiah Jesus. You cannot find anything negative in scripture or tradition to put on Mary, there is much about Rahab.

Where do you get that Catholics worship Mary? That is what you said earlier.

 

[John7]

“Houtous” means “this” as in, “the same was in the beginning with God.”

The word being masculine does not make it a person.

No, but if the pronoun’s antecedent is a person then the pronoun is referring to a person not an object/thing. If the antecedent is a person and masculine then you don’t translate with a neuter or feminine English. If ‘Joe’ is standing next to me and I refer to him using a pronoun, its not idiomatic Eng. to say “this (or she) is standing next to me” but say "this one (or he) is standing next to me. Logos in Jo 1.1, and 1.2 (here replaced with the dem. pronoun) is the same Logos in 1.14 ‘The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us’, it is a person, and masculine. The Logos, who is God (Jo 1.1), is not a thing or a she but a he, a person. To refer to that which was made flesh and dwelt among us as an ‘it’ is incorrect.

Post #3: Shema
I don’t know what the big deal is. The shema isn’t excluding other persons from the Godhead. Its merely saying that YHWH is one YHWH, that’s what you’d expect since its his personal name. YHWH is the Father, Isaiah 63:16 “…thou, O LORD, art our father…” There aren’t 2 Fathers/YHWHs but only one, as a person he is one. Again, the shema is not excluding the 2 other persons from the Godhead. God the son is another person of אלהים. The Father and the Son don’t get each other confused, they both have individual names ie, the Father doesn’t think he’s the Son nor does the Son get confused and think he’s the Father (see Jo 17).

“the LORD/YHWH (who is the Father) our אלהים is one YHWH, one heavenly Father”

-as a Christian, now that God the Son has been revealed, I can also say-

God the Son Jesus is one Lord Jesus Christ (as a person he is one, and there aren’t other Jesus Christs).

-as well as-

God the Holy Spirit is one Holy Spirit (as a person he is one, and there isn’t an other Holy Spirit).

I hope this point of view makes sense :ehh:

 

[steveyb3]

Lapey, thank you as well. It’s all been very respectful so far.

Mary has a song of praise to the Lord. All nations will call her blessed. She was blessed. She was the vehicle for which the Messiah could enter into the world. Being called blessed does not mean she deserves elevation above other mortal, sinners who have repented.

I advise you not to criticize Rahab, a believer mentioned in the great chapter of faith- Hebrews 11. Mary is not mentioned in Hebrews 11.

Techno2000, I have plenty of History to back me up. Beliefs which Christadelphians don’t believe can be shown to come in later than the first century.

Christ did not open Heaven for us. He allowed the Gentiles to share in the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (see Galatians). One of these promises was everlasting possession of the land of Israel. The Kingdom of God will be the restored Kingdom of Israel as under David and Solomon. Christ will be King in Jerusalem and the Ezekiel 40 Temple will be set up.

There are different meanings to the word heaven. One is sky. Elijah was taken up into the sky and taken from this life (he died). One of the reasons is so people don’t worship his grave etc. Same happened for Moses pretty much. Elijah didn’t go into Heaven as he was not a High Priest who could enter the Most Holy Place (Heaven) and Jesus said no one has entered into Heaven.

There are no commas in Greek. I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise. He was telling him today. He wasn’t saying you will be with me today. Paradise is the Greek for Garden- an allusion to the Garden of Eden when everything was good. The Garden of Eden was on the earth. Paradise will be on the earth when the New Jerusalem ascends to earth after Christ returns to the earth.

Please don’t insult Rahab. She is is mentioned in Hebrews 11 whereas Mary was not. Mary was a believer in God but she deserves no more admiration than any other woman of the Bible.

It is a truth that most churches use the NT way more than the OT. The OT is roughly two thirds of the Bible. Therefore roughly two thirds of my quotes come from the OT. I make no apologies for that. Numbers 1:6 is as inspired as John 3:16.

Catholics worship Mary in some form. Prayers to her, statues of her. I’ve been in a church where it said Mary obtained redemption for us- not Jesus. If that is not worship…

Jesus is the word made flesh, not the word. Thank you for your efforts but I don’t think the Trinity makes sense. I’m more than willing to listen to your points of view on the Trinity however.

 

[Lapey]

I have not criticized Rahab the harlot, only typed what is in scripture about her. Everything I said about her is undisputable. One verse in the New, Hebrews 11:31, is more important than all the information about Mary the Blessed Virgin in scripture and the Early Church Father’s Writings (Sacred Tradition).

Some of these issues we will have to agree to disagree, because I am Christian and Christadelphianism seems to be what the early Churches fought against, Judaizers. You ever heard of that term? Your interpretation of scripture and tradition is through a different filter than me. I see the New Testament as the fulfillment of the Old. That is what Jesus taught.

I call Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior, what do you call him? Is He a prophet, or a great man? Some of your explanations just baffle me, mostly because they are too simple for century’s worth of bible scholars and theologians and Church Fathers to have missed. Please point me to the documents and sources that you get your “comma” theory. I know there were no commas in the Greek text, that’s not my point. So the thief on the cross next to my God, is just dead right now? And he will be in the paradise, garden, when Jesus comes again? I have to admit, your beliefs are definitely original to me.

You warned me about criticizing Rahab, I will warn you about cute little clean answers that your teachers give you in order that your beliefs are defendable. Have you done some studying of sources other than what you are being trained with? Scripture plainly states that Elijah was brought up to Heaven in a whirlwind, that’s what it means. It would make no sense at all for Elijah to have been brought up into the sky on a whirlwind; oh I remember to avoid person worship as Catholics do with Mary, the Blessed Virgin Mother of God. Please do some research outside of your little world of Christadelphianism, I beg you.

Revelation speaks of a Heavenly Jerusalem and Heavenly worship, is that in the sky too? Revelation 21:2 talks about the Heavenly Jerusalem and is described more so in verses 22 & 23. Where do you find that this will be on earth?

I am not a Marian expert so I will probably butcher this, Mary is said to participate in our redemption only by the fact that she said yes to God and brought the incarnate Jesus into the world. That’s it, to take it any further is not accurate on your part. All the “work” was done by God the Father and the Jesus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Trinity means three!

I have stated already, the Catholic Church does not and will not endorse worship of Mary. Praying to her asking for intersession is not worship. I pray to Mary and ask that she petition Jesus for my intensions. He alone makes intersession to the Father. I will admit, however, some individual Catholics seem to worship Mary, but that is not brought on by Church teachings. The rosary is a prayer of scripture. The entire rosary can be found in scripture, so what is wrong with praying scripture?

Do you believe the “Word made flesh” thing is a conspiracy to elevate Jesus to God status?

Got to go for now, have a God day everyone!

 

[steveyb3]

There is hardly any information about Mary in the Bible. Some of it is negative as well.
"It came to pass, as he said these things, a certain woman out of the multitude lifted up her voice, and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts which nursed you! But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God, and keep it.”

"It was told him by some saying, "Your mother and your brothers stand outside, desiring to see you. But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God, and do it.”

Early church Fathers are not inspired. The worship of Mother and Child is adopted from Egyptian religions such as Osiris and Horus.

The New Testament is indeed a fulfilment of the Old. The promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Law of Moses, the promises to David and the Prophets.

I don’t know why you think I am a Judaizer. The Law of Moses is not binding on those who have been freed from the Law through baptism.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Lord. Jesus was a prophet (Deut 18:18) and a great man, but oh so much more than that.

Scholars, theologians and fathers have corrupted the Word of God just as the Bible predicted. “In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” To say at a funeral that the deceased is now in Heaven is what itching ears want to hear. To say that they are asleep, awaiting resurrection is Bible teaching.

I’ve done lots of research. Elijah did not go to Heaven as this contradicts John 3:14.

The New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven (treasure in Heaven, my reward is with me) onto the earth (Rev 21:2). God will dwell on the earth with man. This is God’s plan from Genesis to Revelation. God formed the earth to be inhabited- "For thus says Yahweh who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and didn’t create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited: “I am Yahweh; and there is no other.” “One generation goes, and another generation comes; but the earth remains forever.”

Praying to Mary is not worship. It is incorrect practise though and I must warn you not to do it. Pray to the Father through the intercession of the Son. This is what is taught in the Bible.

The Trinity doctrine is not a conspiracy. It is a doctrine that comes from numerous cultural philosophies which claim that God’s give birth to Gods. The Christian religion as a whole has become thus, “God came to earth as a man and reconciled the world to himself so that the immortal soul can go to Heaven.” These teachings are not found in either Testaments and are a corrupion of Bible teachings. There is no need for Jesus to return if everyone is going to Heaven. Jesus will return however as Scripture says he will.

May I recommend the books, “When Jesus Became God” and “The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound.”

 

[Techno2000]

Scholars, theologians and fathers have corrupted the Word of God just as the Bible predicted. “In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” To say at a funeral that the deceased is now in Heaven is what itching ears want to hear. To say that they are asleep, awaiting resurrection is Bible teaching.

This applies to the tiny little Cult your in, wake up you are being misled.

 

[steveyb3]

Tiny little= the remnant. The remnant is always saved througout the Bible. The majority is usually wrong.

Don’t call the Christadelphians a cult please.

I am not being misled. I believe you are. Mary is dead. She cannot promise you anything for reciting the rosary.

 

[Lapey]

Tiny little= the remnant. The remnant is always saved througout the Bible. The majority is usually wrong.

Don’t call the Christadelphians a cult please.

I am not being misled. I believe you are. Mary is dead. She cannot promise you anything for reciting the rosary.

Sorry Steve, but as the JW’s are so does it appear you belong to a cult. I don’t know if I can talk with you anymore as you hurt my heart to read your misinterpretation of scripture.

Those verses you say talk negatively about Mary do not. The fact that you turn the meaning of scripture and are brainwashed to answer against anything I bring up is evidence of a cult. You have to learn, if you want to discuss faith, on a Catholic forum, to at least give me a chance to debate you. All you do is bring us a text book answer from your cult for everything I bring up.

There is no use in debating scripture with you because you already have a programmed answer waiting.

But lying about the Blessed Virgin Mary is too far. I respectfully advise not to refer to the Mother of God in that way, it is quite disrespectful of every believing Catholic here and Jesus her God and Son.

It’s not as cut and dry as you have been taught.

There is only one sin in the bible where there is no forgiveness, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

First off, blasphemy is only applied to a God, so this by scripture itself means that the Holy Spirit is God. Secondly, blasphemy of the Spirit means that you won’t accept the Spirit and therefore come into the light of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

If you will not accept the Holy Spirit and therefore Christ, you cannot accept the Father and you my friend could be lost.

There can be change in your heart though. Have you ever heard of the phrase, “…replace the stony heart with a new one…” I know you recognize it even though it is not a direct quote, but you get the message.

Jesus replaced my stony heart about ten years ago and ended my blaspheming of the Spirit; He can do the same for you. Remember this; He has called you long before you called on Him!!!

He is there for you, just say yes to Christ and the journey will begin.

 

[steveyb3]

In my zeal to convert you from false teaching to the truth I have offended you. Sorry about this. However, please realize by calling the Christadelphians a cult you are deeply offending me. By the “dictionary” definition, Christadelphians are “technically” a cult. I do not care for dictionary definitions. If you entered into a Christadelphian Ecclesia and saw the love and Bible truth there, you would not dream of saying it was a cult. I disagree with JW’s on many issues but I want to convert them, not insult them by calling them a cult.

The verses given aren’t a full rebuke of Mary but they do show she isn’t perfect and doesn’t deserve elevation for being the Mother of the Son of God.

I am not brainwashed. That’s as silly as saying you are brainwashed. I believe one thing. You believe another. Neither of us are brainwashed. I don’t see how I’m not giving you a chance to debate me. I’m reading your posts, you’re reading mine- what’s the problem?

My “textbook answers” come from Bible verses. I don’t know what you mean by textbook answers.

Thank you for your kind words but I have already accepted Christ.

If you still want to talk, can you tell me about these verses about Jesus in the Old Testament.

“For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form nor comeliness. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering, and acquainted with disease. He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didn’t respect him. Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didn’t open his mouth. As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is mute, so he didn’t open his mouth. He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people? They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him. He has caused him to suffer. When you make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed. He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Yahweh shall prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied. My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore will **I **divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” See the distinction between Yahweh and the servant of Yahweh?

“I will be his father, and he shall be my son. I will not take my loving kindness away from him, as I took it from him that was before you.” Future tense. Not he is my Son standing next to me in Heaven. But he will be my Son, when he is born.

 

[Lapey]

Offended, no, amazed yes. It serves no purpose for us to continue discussing verses, because we haven’t meade any progress on the previous ones discussed.

Matthew 12:31-32

“Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

To not accept the Holy Spirit is blasphemy. I have accepted the Holy Spirit and He leads me daily. I pray in the name of Christ, through the Holy Spirit to the Father; and occasionally ask the inocent and not even partially rebuked by scripture Mother Mary to pray with me.

Elizabeth felt she was elevated above other women, don’t you think?

Luke 1:41-43
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

 

[steveyb3]

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to deny the power of God like when they were saying Jesus drives out demons by Beelzebub.

I don’t think Elizabeth thought she was “elevated” above anyone. She was greatly blessed by the Father but Mary was still a sinner in need of salvation.

"As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one. There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one.”

“for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;”

Mary sinned and fell short of the glory of God as do I, as do you, as does everyone who has ever lived except Christ.

Prayer goes through Christ, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

“yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

 

[dzheremi]

Mary sinned? On what basis do you make such a bold claim, insulting Christian orthodoxy in the process? General verses about how there is no one who is good will not do, otherwise you might just as well call Jesus “bad” because he asked the young man why he called Him good in Luke 18.

 

[steveyb3]

Mary sinned because she was a human being like everyone else. Jesus is the only human who never sinned.

Jesus said there is none who is good except God because God is Spirit and Jesus was made of sinful flesh like we are (Heb 2). There is sin in the flesh (Rom 7, 8) and flesh has to be destroyed, which it was on the cross. If Jesus was God it is an illogical claim to tell people not to call him good.

 

[Lapey]

Mary sinned because she was a human being like everyone else. Jesus is the only human who never sinned.

Jesus said there is none who is good except God because God is Spirit and Jesus was made of sinful flesh like we are (Heb 2). There is sin in the flesh (Rom 7, 8) and flesh has to be destroyed, which it was on the cross. If Jesus was God it is an illogical claim to tell people not to call him good.

You are quite well learned in scripture, very mislead in interprtation of scripture. You have been taught that nothing except scripture alone, and Church Fathers, only the first century that is, means anything to the “truth”. Therefore your skewed vision of scripture meaning is stand alone idiocy.

I wish you well, I pray you seek the truth, but I must “shake the sand from my sandals” and move on to the next town.

May the Lord Bless you, in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit!

PS. I am begging Mary, the Mother of God to pray for your conversion to thr fullness of truth.

Please don’t respond, I will not answer.

With the love of Christ, Gary.

 

[SydneyDee]

Are you sure you aren’t confused about Jesus being divine? I googled your denomination’s beliefs and they said you all believe He was divine.

http://www.christadelphianals.org/our_beliefs_0.html

 

[Techno2000]

Mary sinned because she was a human being like everyone else. Jesus is the only human who never sinned.

Jesus said there is none who is good except God because God is Spirit and Jesus was made of sinful flesh like we are (Heb 2). There is sin in the flesh (Rom 7, 8) and flesh has to be destroyed, which it was on the cross. If Jesus was God it is an illogical claim to tell people not to call him good.

If the flesh is what makes people sinful, how is it that demons are sinful when they never had flesh to begin with ?