The Nature of Christ

[steveyb3]

Hello everyone,

I believe there is one God, Yahweh, the Father who can be manifested in many.

I believe that Jesus Christ, is the Son of God. I believe he was fully human and not divine.

Please can you tell me why you think God is a Trinity?

 

[ralphinal]

The first step is always first. One must accept Jesus as both Human and Divine to have a Trinity.

Why do you hold that Jesus is not Divine?

 

[steveyb3]

Yahweh made his nature known in the Old Testament. He is one, “Behold O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.”

“Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me.”

Jesus is the Son of God as God overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Jesus never claimed to be God, but the Son of God.

God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), but Jesus was.

No man can see God and live (Exodus 33:20, 1Tim 6:16, John 1:18) yet people saw Jesus.

Jesus had to made in every way like his brothers (Heb 2:17). His brothers were not divine and so Jesus was not divine.

Why do you hold that Jesus was divine?

 

[ralphinal]

Yahweh made his nature known in the Old Testament. He is one, “Behold O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.”

“Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me.”

Jesus is the Son of God as God overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Jesus never claimed to be God, but the Son of God.

God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), but Jesus was.

No man can see God and live (Exodus 33:20, 1Tim 6:16, John 1:18) yet people saw Jesus.

Jesus had to made in every way like his brothers (Heb 2:17). His brothers were not divine and so Jesus was not divine.

Why do you hold that Jesus was divine?

Jesus said that he and the Father are one. Jn 10:30

Jesus stated that, “The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins” Mk 2:10. See also Lk 7:48. It is clear that ONLY God can forgive sins

Jesus said that before Abraham was “I AM” Jn 8:58

In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was With God, AND THE WORD WAS God, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1.

Basically, Jesus is the Word made flesh, making him God. To deny that is to deny the Gospel of John

 

[Bill_Pick]

Yahweh made his nature known in the Old Testament. He is one, “Behold O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.”

“Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me.”

Jesus is the Son of God as God overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Jesus never claimed to be God, but the Son of God.

God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), but Jesus was.

No man can see God and live (Exodus 33:20, 1Tim 6:16, John 1:18) yet people saw Jesus.

Jesus had to made in every way like his brothers (Heb 2:17). His brothers were not divine and so Jesus was not divine.

Why do you hold that Jesus was divine?

O well here we go again,because He is divine,believe it it is true

 

[Lapey]

Hello everyone,

I believe there is one God, Yahweh, the Father who can be manifested in many.

I believe that Jesus Christ, is the Son of God. I believe he was fully human and not divine.

Please can you tell me why you think God is a Trinity?

First off, I hope you don’t mind me asking a couple of questions. What is the tradition you site as your affiliation, Christadelphian??? I never heard of that one.

Is your trust and belief of sacred scripture more geared towards the Old rather than the New Testament?

 

[steveyb3]

Jesus said he and the Father are one. This doesn’t imply a Trinity. He distinguishes between himself and the Father. He was one with the Father as he was the manifestation of God’s character. He was tempted in every way, yet did not sin. His perfect life made him one with the Father.

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins as he was Emmanuel, God with us. He was the manifestation of God in the flesh, but not the incarnation of God in the flesh. The rest of the verse says that they praised God who had given authority unto men.

Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus is the purpose of God. In that sense, he pre-existed. He “existed” as he was always in God’s mind from the start (he knew Adam and Eve would fall etc). The same language is used of believers who were “predestined” and yet the believers did not literally pre-exist.

Jesus is the Word made flesh. God’s Word has always existed, but Jesus did not exist until he was born.

I do not deny the Gospel of John, merely deny the Trinitarian interpretation of the Gospel of John.

Lapey, I do not mind you asking questions at all . I am a Christadelphian. The Christadelphians originated in the 19th Century and desired to return to first century doctrine and practise. We believe the doctrines held by most of Christianity were not held in the first century. Please see this website for more.

Myself and all Christadelphians treat both Old and New Testaments with equal regard and see them as the only authority. I started off with some Old Testament passages to show that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Old Testament.

 

[Lapey]

Lapey, I do not mind you asking questions at all . I am a Christadelphian. The Christadelphians originated in the 19th Century and desired to return to first century doctrine and practise. We believe the doctrines held by most of Christianity were not held in the first century. Please see this website for more.

Myself and all Christadelphians treat both Old and New Testaments with equal regard and see them as the only authority. I started off with some Old Testament passages to show that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Old Testament.

Cool…because I have many!

What is your perception of the doctrine of the Triune God, in other words, what do you think I believe as a Catholic? How do you reconcile the send off at the end of Matthew’s Gospel, “go and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” That sure sounds Trinitarian to me. But hey, I and most Christians since the resurrection and ascension have seen this to be the case could be wrong.

That brings me to the next question, have you done the research for yourself on early Christian practices or taken other peoples word for it? There are many writings, including sacred scripture that contradict the thought of Jesus being only of human nature.

The author of John’s epistles wrote of the spirit of antichrist, this was precisely written to contradict this teaching that was developing within the Johanine community. How do you reconcile these issues and come to the conclusion that everybody else, including bible book authors, are wrong and your tradition is right? To believe sacred scripture is without error, you must see the discrepancy here. Remember time settings matter in interpreting scripture.

I ask these questions because I just don’t understand the thought process that one goes through in order to accept this belief.

Kind of sounds like the Jehovah’s Witness tradition, doesn’t it?

 

[Eutychus123]

Hello everyone,

I believe there is one God, Yahweh, the Father who can be manifested in many.

I believe that Jesus Christ, is the Son of God. I believe he was fully human and not divine.

Please can you tell me why you think God is a Trinity?

Do you believe that there is a Holy Spirit? If so, how does the Spirit interrelate with God and Jesus?

 

[scottirey]

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins as he was Emmanuel, God with us. He was the manifestation of God in the flesh, but not the incarnation of God in the flesh. The rest of the verse says that they praised God who had given authority unto men.

Hello Steveby3. I find your faiths interpretations interesting but a little confusing. In particular I find the above quote quite hard to understand as I find an enormous leap must be made to go from “only God can forgive sin” and “Jesus had power on earth to forgive sin as he was Emmanuel, God with us” to “He was the manifestation of God in the flesh, but not the incarnation of God in the flesh”

Emmanuel means “God with us” it is simple, strait forward and pretty hard to argue against. But if you interpret it to mean “Gods manifestation is with us” then Jesus could not forgive sin. God does not forgive sin through Jesus, “Jesus” forgave sins on Earth, Jesus then gave that authority to the priesthood. The scripture I believe is quite clear on that.

The only way I can see Jesus being able to forgive sin is if he is the incarnation of God. As pointed out by previous posters, there is an enormous body of evidence in the new testament asserting that Jesus is indeed the incarnation of God the Son. He has to be in order to forgive sin. If he is the incarnation of God the Son he is most certainly divine.

Please, if you can explain your faiths stance on this in a little more depth I would like to see a bridge of evidence to cover that leap I perceive.

Yours in Christ,

Scott Irey

 

[steveyb3]

My perception of the “Tri-une God” is that God is three-in-one for want of a better expression. God is still one but made of three parts, all co-equal, all co-eternal.

To be baptized into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is to be associated with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. After baptism, a believer is “in Christ” and yet they are not part of the Godhead. To be baptized into the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit does not say anything about a Tri-une God.

I have done lots of research into early Christian beliefs. The earliest creeds do not mention the Trinity or many other doctrines which most churches teach now. The doctrine of the Trinity was confirmed at the council of Nicea in 324/5 when it became “orthodox” teaching. I don’t believe it was around before then as it is not found in the Bible.

The author of John’s epistles said that whoever denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is Anti-Christ. Jesus had to be made of flesh for atonement to be made.

Christadelphians are not Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, they believe the Kingdom of God will be on earth as Christadelphians do and they reject the doctrine of the Trinity as we do.

The Holy Spirit is God’s power (Luke 1:35). It was used by God to inspire the writer’s of the Old Testament and New Testament. It was given to various people for a short space of time but is now not possessed by anyone (1 Cor 13:8). The Holy Spirit is not a person. God gave Jesus the Holy Spirit at his baptism. From this point on he could do miracles.

Jesus was given authority to forgive sin to indicate to Israel that he was God’s son. Prophets like Jesus had arisen but none could forgive sin. By declaring Jesus can forgive sin, God is announcing that Jesus is worthy of greater honour than others. The rest of the verse says the men praised God who had given authority unto men. Jesus is the man mentioned.

What do you mean by Jesus gave that authority to the priesthood? Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. He is the only High Priest. In the Millenium age, believers will be a royal priesthood, a kingdom of priests but at the moment God forgives our sins through the intercession of the great High Priest, Jesus Christ as in the Tabernacle in the Old Testament.

God cannot dwell in flesh. God’s character can be manifested to an extent. Jesus manifested it perfectly, so that he could claim that he and the Father are one.

Jesus was tempted by his own internal desires (the flesh) (Heb 2:17, 18). If he is not like us in every way, our association with him in baptism (full immersion) is not able to save.

Jesus is not co-equal with Yahweh, “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

“and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.”

“When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

"He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God.”

"Jesus said to her, "Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” Jesus had the desire to do something different to God’s will. He did not give in though.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

 

[Bill_Pick]

My perception of the “Tri-une God” is that God is three-in-one for want of a better expression. God is still one but made of three parts, all co-equal, all co-eternal.

To be baptized into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is to be associated with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. After baptism, a believer is “in Christ” and yet they are not part of the Godhead. To be baptized into the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit does not say anything about a Tri-une God.

I have done lots of research into early Christian beliefs. The earliest creeds do not mention the Trinity or many other doctrines which most churches teach now. The doctrine of the Trinity was confirmed at the council of Nicea in 324/5 when it became “orthodox” teaching. I don’t believe it was around before then as it is not found in the Bible.

The author of John’s epistles said that whoever denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is Anti-Christ. Jesus had to be made of flesh for atonement to be made.

Christadelphians are not Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, they believe the Kingdom of God will be on earth as Christadelphians do and they reject the doctrine of the Trinity as we do.

The Holy Spirit is God’s power (Luke 1:35). It was used by God to inspire the writer’s of the Old Testament and New Testament. It was given to various people for a short space of time but is now not possessed by anyone (1 Cor 13:8). The Holy Spirit is not a person. God gave Jesus the Holy Spirit at his baptism. From this point on he could do miracles.

Jesus was given authority to forgive sin to indicate to Israel that he was God’s son. Prophets like Jesus had arisen but none could forgive sin. By declaring Jesus can forgive sin, God is announcing that Jesus is worthy of greater honour than others. The rest of the verse says the men praised God who had given authority unto men. Jesus is the man mentioned.

What do you mean by Jesus gave that authority to the priesthood? Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. He is the only High Priest. In the Millenium age, believers will be a royal priesthood, a kingdom of priests but at the moment God forgives our sins through the intercession of the great High Priest, Jesus Christ as in the Tabernacle in the Old Testament.

God cannot dwell in flesh. God’s character can be manifested to an extent. Jesus manifested it perfectly, so that he could claim that he and the Father are one.

Jesus was tempted by his own internal desires (the flesh) (Heb 2:17, 18). If he is not like us in every way, our association with him in baptism (full immersion) is not able to save.

Jesus is not co-equal with Yahweh, “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

“and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.”

“When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

"He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God.”

"Jesus said to her, "Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” Jesus had the desire to do something different to God’s will. He did not give in though.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

Read John 1:1 and try to learn

 

[steveyb3]

The Word was with God in the beginning. The Word does not become Jesus until verse 14. It was the Word that pre-existed, not Jesus. It was the Word that became flesh, it was not the “pre-incarnate” Jesus that became flesh.

 

[Bill_Pick]

The Word was with God in the beginning. The Word does not become Jesus until verse 14. It was the Word that pre-existed, not Jesus. It was the Word that became flesh, it was not the “pre-incarnate” Jesus that became flesh.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[sixofseven]

Hi steveyb3,

So sorry to hijack your thread and change topics but I wanted to ask you about what Christadelphians believe about the afterlife. I’ve raised this in a couple of other threads and when I saw you were Christadelphian I just had to post!! I hope you don’t mind…

My understanding is that you believe once a person dies they no longer look back on the wicked world and those in it. Is this right?

A discussion came up about this when a friend who grew up Christadelphian saw a prayer I had written asking our deceased family members and friends to pray for us. My friend said she couldn’t understand why I would ask this because they don’t think about us and so can’t pray for us.

Can you shed any light on this, where this belief comes from?

Here is my thread if you prefer to answer there instead of here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=402116

 

[Lapey]

1. Agree – three persons one God. Mystery we humans will not understand.
2. How is it that this has nothing to do with a Trinitarian God? This verse and the Baptism of Jesus Himself and many other scripture talk of Father Son and Holy Spirit, but you are right it does not specifically read the Blessed Trinity.
3. The key word you site here is “confirmed”. Most dogma and official teaching is something that is confirmed as dogma such as this. This does in this case mean however it was a belief before hand and this instance is documented in Early Church writings long before this council.
4. The writing is referring to those who deny Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Savoir i.e. God. There was a faction who said that God could not come in the flesh, sound familiar? Certain gnostics denied the earthly Jesus was the Christ; to deny deny knowledge of the Son is to deny the Father, since only through the Son that God has been fully revealed.
5. 1 Cor 13:8 – How do you derive your belief from this verse? Totally out of context of what this chapter and letter is about. I am completely puzzled by this one…sorry. There are so many other verses that specifically talk about the Spirit being with people and the gifts, how do you come up with this thought from this verse is beyond me.
6. Jesus was given this power because He is God. He shared this duty and the priesthood with the apostles. But you are correct to refer to Christ as the only High Priest. John 14: 8-9, Philip asks for Jesus to “show us the Father” and Jesus tells him so clearly, “…you still don’t know me, Philip? Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father.”
7. Jesus will always be the High priest, correct. However he ordained the Apostles with the Priesthood of Christ, and this succession continues today. Jesus resides within the Eucharist, which is kept in the tabernacles within the Catholic Churches.
8. God can most certainly and has dwelt on earth in the flesh, in the flesh of Jesus. The character was so perfect it was God! God in the flesh! And yes the Son and the Father are one.
9. He was tempted in the flesh as He is 100% man, here is the stickler for your tradition, He is also 100% divine. Not like us in every way is a correct way to describe Him, everything but sin. If baptism is not a salvific action offered by God, then what’s the point? Why would the risen Christ tell us to baptize the world in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit?
10. Yes He most certainly is, He is I AM! He is the Alpha and the Omega! He is the Word that was there in the beginning and was made Flesh for the salvation of the world!
11. Context of sacred scripture is quite important to the actual meaning. Be careful not to leave out the true meaning intended by the author in its time setting. This is not the only criticism used to interpret text, but it is a critical part of finding the truth.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jesus said he and the Father are one. This doesn’t imply a Trinity.

Yes, it does.

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins as he was Emmanuel, God with us.

Only God has the power to forgive sin, therefore Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us.

Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am.”

That means Jesus existed even before Abraham. If he was the ‘I AM’, the title that God used to denote Himself, and Jesus was with us again in flesh, therefore he was both God and man.

Jesus is the Word made flesh. God’s Word has always existed, but Jesus did not exist until he was born.

Right. Jesus the man existed after he was was born but Jesus the divine has and always been existing.

I do not deny the Gospel of John, merely deny the Trinitarian interpretation of the Gospel of John.

You interpret wrongly. Listen to mother Church who gave you the Bible and who will tell you how to interpret it correctly.

Gdo bless you.

 

[soren1]

Jesus is the Word made flesh. God’s Word has always existed, but Jesus did not exist until he was born.

Steveyb3,

I find your posts very interesting. I have never studied Christadelphian theology though I have taken a look at the website you linked to. I see a lot of people responding to different things in your post, but I want to direct my question to just this one statement. You are clearly distinguishing the Word from Jesus, but you are also saying Jesus is the Word in some way. How does that work?

In Catholic theology, “Word” is a name expressing the same reality as “Son,” and Christ’s sonship is eternal as is his “wordship.” Many texts dealing with Jesus existence prior to coming in the flesh refer to him as “Christ” in those very contexts. For instance, Col 1:16 speaks of Christ as Creator but makes no mention of the term “Word” although you find “Jesus Christ” and “Christ Jesus” being used.

Because I don’t know your theology I can only guess how you might answer this. On the one hand, I suspect, you are just making a point about names, that the Word was not called “Jesus” before he came in the flesh. Yet you say that “Jesus didn’t exist before he was born” which seems like a much stronger statement. What then is the relationship between Jesus and the Word that sorts this out for you?

 

[Techno2000]

Hello everyone,

I believe there is one God, Yahweh, the Father who can be manifested in many.

I believe that Jesus Christ, is the Son of God. I believe he was fully human and not divine.

Please can you tell me why you think God is a Trinity?

THE NICENE CREED (381 A.D.)

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Nine_Two]

Hello everyone,

I believe there is one God, Yahweh, the Father who can be manifested in many.

I believe that Jesus Christ, is the Son of God. I believe he was fully human and not divine.

Please can you tell me why you think God is a Trinity?

Because Christ portrayed himself as God, claiming divinity or divine rights on several occasions.

Unless you can accept him as divine there is no point in discussing the third person of the Trinity.