The new Anglican Ordinariate is established today!

[YoungTradCath]

Carolyn, this is news to me, and I’m so glad you made the points. I was told by an RCIA instructor that a baptized Catholic is not to receive Communion until one has had First Communion and Confirmation; the way she said this made it sound like Canon Law. However, she also told me that I should be in weekly RCIA, which in that parish includes the unbaptized, but the Deacon of a different parish told me I simply needed to attend bi-monthly Confirmation classes. I started going to Reconciliation six months ago, which the first parish I mentioned discourages until the subject is covered in RCIA, but the latter parish Religious Ed director encourages. Now, based on what you’ve said here, I’m getting the impression that there is no binding dogma on the issue and it’s up to the parish

Most Catholics who are raised Catholic are baptized several days or weeks after their birth. They then receive communion for the first time around seven years of age, the same time the also start going to confession. They are not confirmed usually until they are in their teens.

If someone is baptized in some other ecclesial community (Protestantism), then they do not receive communion until they convert to the Catholic faith through RCIA or some similar program, and they will be confirmed and receive communion for the first time at the end of that.

If someone is baptized close to their birth in a Catholic church but then leave the faith for whatever reason (usually parents) before they turn seven and then decide to come back later in life, they generally go through the same process as the Protestant.

If someone is not baptized at all, they go through the same RCIA program, but are first baptized in the same mass they they are confirmed and receive first communion in.

 

[NorthTexan88]

Right. Their liturgies are beautiful, I agree.

I agree, it is a very beautiful liturgy. I very often miss the incense every Sunday, the traditional hymns, the kneeling at communion. I am lucky to have a couple of Anglican Use parishes in the DFW area, unfortunalty, being a broke college student I have not been able to make it to one as the closest is over 30 miles away. Maybe that’ll be my late Christmas present to myself lol.

 

[Vico]

I think, yes, eventually Catholics will once again have married Priests…and the increasing closeness to the denominations which already have married clergy will probably hasten this.

Yes, there are some scriptural arguments that Priestly celibacy may be beneficial in certain instances…but I also don’t think abandoning the policy, at least in part, would be exclusively negative.

But not married bishops.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I agree, it is a very beautiful liturgy. I very often miss the incense every Sunday, the traditional hymns, the kneeling at communion. I am lucky to have a couple of Anglican Use parishes in the DFW area, unfortunalty, being a broke college student I have not been able to make it to one as the closest is over 30 miles away. Maybe that’ll be my late Christmas present to myself lol.

I personally don’t like the idea of having incense at every mass, nor chant. I like the formal “level system” of the EF, but that’s just me.

 

[Faithdancer]

Most Catholics who are raised Catholic are baptized several days or weeks after their birth. They then receive communion for the first time around seven years of age, the same time the also start going to confession. They are not confirmed usually until they are in their teens.

If someone is baptized in some other ecclesial community (Protestantism), then they do not receive communion until they convert to the Catholic faith through RCIA or some similar program, and they will be confirmed and receive communion for the first time at the end of that.

If someone is baptized close to their birth in a Catholic church but then leave the faith for whatever reason (usually parents) before they turn seven and then decide to come back later in life, they generally go through the same process as the Protestant.

If someone is not baptized at all, they go through the same RCIA program, but are first baptized in the same mass they they are confirmed and receive first communion in.

Well, I did take communion at a Midnight Mass 20 something years ago. I did so in good faith, I was caught up in the spirit it seemed like the thing to do at the time and I didn’t know that there was any harm in it. At any rate I’m going to talk to the priest in the parish where I’m now attending Confirmation classes and will be guided by his counsel. Thanks!

 

[5Loaves]

If someone already posted this, mea culpa. There is a good basic Q & A on the website for the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter .

Also, excerpts from the Jan. 2, 2012 Ordinariate press conference.

My friend said that her priest told them they have been accepted by Rome as part of the Ordinate but when I checked Jason’s website the church in question is not listed. They keep insisting that I can receive sacraments at thier church. Needless to say I have not been back—not even out of friendship.

The first ordinariate, Our Lady of Walsingham, was established for England and Wales on January 15, 2011. If this is a parish in the UK they they could possibly be part of the Our Lady of Walsingham Ordinariate.

However if they are in the US, there are no parishes yet in the Ordinariate. As you will note in this press conference Jan 2,2012 their Ordinary says “we who will come into full communion through this Ordinariate…” (emphasis mine), that is they will be coming into communion, but today they are not yet.

Perhaps they went through catechesis and were then received into full communion with the Catholic Church under pastoral provision. The Q&A says ?the Since 1980, three parishes and a number of smaller groups have been established in the United States." Those should be on the website you were referred to.

What is the process for an Anglican community to become a member of the ordinariate?

The Anglican community would apply to the Ordinary, who would oversee the catechesis of the members of that community and arrange for the formal reception of its individual members into the Catholic Church. Once the stability of the community is assured, it could be recognized as a mission or parish of the ordinariate. The ecumenical implications of a congregation separating from a previous ecclesial relationship would be carefully observed.

There are not even any priests yet in formation to be ordained in the ordinariate

From the FAQ:

As of January 1, 2012, over 100 Anglican priests have applied to become Catholic priests for the ordinariate
The process for a former Anglican priest to be ordained for the ordinariate includes several steps:…
3 Receive a nulla osta (no impediment) from the CDF, permitting the applicant to continue in the process; as of November 2011, 41 of 67 dossiers were at this stage…

I hope this will encourage you to look at the Q&A and listen to the Jan. 2, 2012 Ordinariate press conference both of with are very helpful.

As one who was baptized and confirmed in the Episcopal Church here in America prior to all the changes of the 1960s and beyond, I have a special joy in my heart for these brothers and sisters of this ecclesial community who have been much challenged especially in the most recent decades. I wish there were a parish near me likely to seek full communion in the ordinariate, or even an Anglican use Catholic Church. I still pray from my 1928 Book of Common Prayer from time to time, orthodox prayers of great beauty, and sing from my 1940 Hymnal, Standard Harmony Edition.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Carolyn, this is news to me, and I’m so glad you made the points. I was told by an RCIA instructor that a baptized Catholic is not to receive Communion until one has had First Communion and Confirmation; the way she said this made it sound like Canon Law. However, she also told me that I should be in weekly RCIA, which in that parish includes the unbaptized, but the Deacon of a different parish told me I simply needed to attend bi-monthly Confirmation classes. I started going to Reconciliation six months ago, which the first parish I mentioned discourages until the subject is covered in RCIA, but the latter parish Religious Ed director encourages. Now, based on what you’ve said here, I’m getting the impression that there is no binding dogma on the issue and it’s up to the parish

The thing is, if you did not receive any instruction in the Faith, you can’t just go to Communion. You have to be catechized, and usually this is done through RCIA. Then you go to confession, receive your First Communion, and Confirmation. So no, under ordinary circumstances you, not having been catechized or raised as a Catholic, will not be able to just go up for communion. However, practices differ from parish to parish, although I doubt many would permit a person who has not received instruction in the faith to just start taking Communion.

In my husband’s case, the Church at that time did not have the same process for converts. They were given private instruction, got baptized, received their First communion (or went to Confession if already baptized). Only the Bishop would confirm (usually), so one had to wait until the Bishop came around to get confirmed. Many never bothered.

All I am pointing out is that Confirmation is not necessary to receive Communion in the Catholic Church, and indeed most of our first communicants are not Confirmed, as they are too young. There is no Canon Law stating you have to be Confirmed to receive Communion.
There are Catholics who were baptized as infants, received basic instruction, and made their First Communion but were never confirmed. That does not prevent them from receiving Communion when they return to the Church. They just need to go to Confession, and they should seek Confirmation ASAP.

 

[FrDavid96]

Carolyn, this is news to me, and I’m so glad you made the points.

I’m going to break this down into pieces because there’s a lot here

I was told by an RCIA instructor that a baptized Catholic is not to receive Communion until one has had First Communion and Confirmation; the way she said this made it sound like Canon Law.

Somewhat true. Naturally, one cannot receive Communion until after receiving “First Communion” because there can only be one “first time.” It’s up to the pastor to determine that someone (adult or child) is ready to receive 1st Communion. If the pastor has adult 1st Communion and Confirmation “scheduled” for the same day, then one should wait until that day–and not try to get ahead of the pastor’s decision to give 1st Communion on a given day.

However, she also told me that I should be in weekly RCIA, which in that parish includes the unbaptized, but the Deacon of a different parish told me I simply needed to attend bi-monthly Confirmation classes.

This is nothing more than 2 parishes having 2 different schedules.
There are 3 forms of RCIA
RCIA for the unbaptised
RCIA for those baptised non-Catholic
RCIA for those baptised Catholic, but did not receive either Communion or Confirmation

Sometimes parishes will combine 2 or more categories of persons into the same RCIA classrooms. One parish combined them, the other parish had them separated.

I started going to Reconciliation six months ago, which the first parish I mentioned discourages until the subject is covered in RCIA, but the latter parish Religious Ed director encourages.

This depends on just what you mean. A baptised Catholic can go to Confession at any time–no restrictions whatever. Although it does make some sense to say “wait until we’ve covered it in class, so that you know what to do and what Confession is all about.”

On the other hand, only a Catholic can go to Confession. So no religious ed. director should be encouraging non-Catholics to attempt Confession. The one exception is that a previously-baptised person must go to Confession (as a final step of being received into the Church) shortly before receiving First Communion and being Confirmed.

Now, based on what you’ve said here, I’m getting the impression that there is no binding dogma on the issue and it’s up to the parish

It’s not “dogma” but some of it is binding on all parishes and priests.
Combining the different forms of RCIA is something that some parishes do, and some don’t. That part is a matter of doing what works for the local needs.

 

[Vico]

Also: §3 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist, and anointing of the sick to members of the Eastern churches not in full communion with the catholic Church, if they spontaneously ask for them and are properly disposed. The same applies to members of other churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid Eastern churches so far as the sacraments are concerned (canon 844).

 

[Faithdancer]

I’m going to break this down into pieces because there’s a lot here

Somewhat true. Naturally, one cannot receive Communion until after receiving “First Communion” because there can only be one “first time.” It’s up to the pastor to determine that someone (adult or child) is ready to receive 1st Communion. If the pastor has adult 1st Communion and Confirmation “scheduled” for the same day, then one should wait until that day–and not try to get ahead of the pastor’s decision to give 1st Communion on a given day.

This is nothing more than 2 parishes having 2 different schedules.
There are 3 forms of RCIA
RCIA for the unbaptised
RCIA for those baptised non-Catholic
RCIA for those baptised Catholic, but did not receive either Communion or Confirmation

Sometimes parishes will combine 2 or more categories of persons into the same RCIA classrooms. One parish combined them, the other parish had them separated.

This depends on just what you mean. A baptised Catholic can go to Confession at any time–no restrictions whatever. Although it does make some sense to say “wait until we’ve covered it in class, so that you know what to do and what Confession is all about.”

On the other hand, only a Catholic can go to Confession. So no religious ed. director should be encouraging non-Catholics to attempt Confession. The one exception is that a previously-baptised person must go to Confession (as a final step of being received into the Church) shortly before receiving First Communion and being Confirmed.

It’s not “dogma” but some of it is binding on all parishes and priests.
Combining the different forms of RCIA is something that some parishes do, and some don’t. That part is a matter of doing what works for the local needs.

Thanks for taking the time to make such a detailed explanation, Fr. David. And yes, the previous class I was in combined everyone into “RCIA” for logistical reasons; that parish has a lot of competition for meeting room space and time and even most of the baptized Catholics in the class had little to no knowledge of the Catechism. I wouldn’t have either, but I took it upon myself last year to “catch up” via VLCFF and other classes, reading the Catechism, and a first semester of an MA Theology program. I’ve been like a sponge, basically.

Anyway I did speak with the new Religious Ed Director and though she is aware that I’m in a theology program, and that I’ve read through and understand the Catechism section on the Sacraments, they “prefer” that I wait until a formal first Communion. I’m quietly acquiescing to that because it is the tradition for the parish to have a special First Communion for all the adults together and I don’t want to rock the boat. I’m just hungry, and having a full understanding of the profound meaning of taking the Eucharist makes me hungrier! But that’s okay, it’s just a few months away now.

Interestingly enough as I mentioned in a previous post I did take the Eucharist in a Catholic Church years ago, and I believe I was thinking transsubtantiatively at the time, but I guess it didn’t count, so to speak. Neither do all of the many Sundays I spent taking Communion in a Protestant church but I understand why that doesn’t count as the reverends weren’t sacramentally ordained and therefore the host was not a Sacrament, just symbolic in that faith.

Of course, being baptized Catholic I’m still encouraged to make Reconciliation, especially since I jumped the gun and started going six months ago anyway. Fortunately when I made my life confession then I had the most kind, sympathetic and saintly priest imaginable. Even when I pulled another long list of sins out of my sock…

 

[5Loaves]

Excellent interview with Fr. Steenson on Vatican Radio yesterday.

 

[Contarini]

“Episcopalian” is what the Church of England is called in America.

Not quite. The Episcopal Church is in communion with the Church of England, but we are not the Church of England. We are all part of the Anglican Communion.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

very early in church history.

No, in the Eastern churches the practice has never been changed!

In the West there was pressure for priestly celibacy as early as the third century, I believe, but it took the form of exhorting priests not to have sex with their wives, not forcing them to put their wives away or refusing to ordain married men. Only in the 11th century was this more drastic policy adopted–and very poorly enforced until after the Reformation.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Dan Daly:

You are so very fabulous. Thank you so much because you have cleared some of this up for me.

"Anglo-Catholics" Again Protestants, but a subset of the previous group, many of whom are closer to Catholic belief, but still not in union with Rome and without valid apostolic succession."

Bingo----this is what my friends call themselves. Anglo-Catholics. But they insist they are not protestants and are as Catholic as me. I don’t know how this can be since they reject the Pope. So, am I right to think that only the Anglican Use Catholics are really Catholic in their beliefs and they are the ones that are joining our faith? If so then I think I got it!!

The way you put it still sounds a bit confused.

Anglican Use Catholics are Anglicans who have already united with Rome–they aren’t some group outside the Roman Communion. They tend to be those who already consider themselves “Anglo-Catholics.”

Anglo-Catholics, in the strictest sense, believe everything that Catholics and Orthodox have in common. Some go beyond this–I think it’s fair to say that some Anglo-Catholics do believe everything the Catholic Church teaches, but simply do not feel authorized to unite with Rome as individuals, working instead for corporate reunion.

On the other hand, many people call themselves Anglo-Catholics while still having some Protestant beliefs. For instance, one Anglo-Catholic I met–a classics scholar whose husband was the archbishop of a Continuing Anglican jurisdiction–insisted that her church did not ask for the prayers of the Blessed Virgin.

The bigger point, though, is that there’s more to being Catholic than just holding beliefs. It’s about communion.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Is there a list of churches that have been accepted by Rome.

I have an Anglican friend that keeps telling me I can receive communion at her Anglican church but I know that they are not in union with the Pope and I am not so sure they believe Christ is truly in the Eurchrist.

Anglican discipline allows you to receive communion in our churches.

The discipline of your Communion does not.

Anglicans differ among themselves on how far we are obliged to help your Communion maintain its own discipline. Clearly your friend feels no such obligation.

So, I’d like to make sure before I get in too deep. A list would be most helpful.

You aren’t generally encouraged to receive communion in other churches, period. However, your Communion recognizes the apostolic succession of the various Eastern churches and of Western “Old Catholic” churches. The latter are fairly few in number–the Polish National Catholic Church is one of the more prominent ones in North America. You are, I believe, allowed to receive communion in churches with apostolic succession under certain circumstances, even if they are not in communion with Rome. But most of the Eastern Churches wouldn’t give you communion–in fact, generally an Eastern Orthodox priest won’t give communion to someone he doesn’t know.

Edwin

 

[YoungTradCath]

You aren’t generally encouraged to receive communion in other churches, period. However, your Communion recognizes the apostolic succession of the various Eastern churches and of Western “Old Catholic” churches. The latter are fairly few in number–the Polish National Catholic Church is one of the more prominent ones in North America. You are, I believe, allowed to receive communion in churches with apostolic succession under certain circumstances, even if they are not in communion with Rome. But most of the Eastern Churches wouldn’t give you communion–in fact, generally an Eastern Orthodox priest won’t give communion to someone he doesn’t know.

Edwin

Well, Roman Catholics may receive and do receive Communion very frequently from Eastern Catholic priests, and Eastern Catholics receive very frequently from Roman Catholic priests. Eastern Orthodoxy is a different story. Their Communion is valid, but Catholics, Eastern and Western, should not receive communion from them unless it is necessary.

 

[liturgyluver]

Well, Roman Catholics may receive and do receive Communion very frequently from Eastern Catholic priests, and Eastern Catholics receive very frequently from Roman Catholic priests. Eastern Orthodoxy is a different story. Their Communion is valid, but Catholics, Eastern and Western, should not receive communion from them unless it is necessary.

And, as I understand it, Orthodox Christians are not permitted to receive communion in a Catholic (or any other church) as Orthodoxy sees itself as the fullness of the church. Is that correct?

 

[FrDavid96]

And, as I understand it, Orthodox Christians are not permitted to receive communion in a Catholic (or any other church) as Orthodoxy sees itself as the fullness of the church. Is that correct?

More or less.

It does depend a lot on the circumstances.

It happens quite frequently on a local level that Catholics and Orthodox receive Communion at each other’s services. It’s especially prevalent in places of persecution like the Middle East where sometimes the lines between Catholic and Orthodox are very blurred. It also happens here in the US in areas heavily populated by both Catholic and Orthodox, because Church membership often gets blurred (mom is Orthodox, dad is Eastern Catholic and the kids go to both churches), or sometimes families switch between parishes depending on which priest they like better at the moment (sad but true). It also happens where an area has either an Eastern Catholic presence or an Orthodox presence, but not both.

In general, the official position of the Orthodox is that they won’t admit Catholics to Communion; and they forbid their members to receive from a Catholic priest. In practice, depending on the place and the circumstances, it can happen quite a bit.

We also need to keep in mind that the different Orthodox jurisdictions are more strict or less strict. They also don’t have a single code of canon law in the same way that Eastern Catholics have the CCOE.

 

[Dale_M]

I think, yes, eventually Catholics will once again have married Priests…and the increasing closeness to the denominations which already have married clergy will probably hasten this.

The Catholic Church has always had married priests. Most, if not all, of the Eastern Catholic Churches allow for married priests. And individual married clergy who were Anglican or Lutheran and then converted to the Latin church were also allowed to become Catholic priests.

 

[horselvr]

"Anglican discipline allows you to receive communion in our churches.

The discipline of your Communion does not."

Thanks Edwin. This is exactly the point I have been trying to make to my friends.