The 'New Evangelization' for Catholics ... why not join with the Protestant Evangelicals ?

[TimothyH]

My experience with Campus Crusade is that they can be aggressivly anti-Catholic, and even agressive with mainline Protestant denominationalists.

That is my own personal experience.

-Tim-

 

[brb3]

Certainly, we Catholics need to be busy about Our Father’s business and at work in His vineyards, but teaming up with Campus Crusade, or any other n-Cs is not the way to go.

Just as John Martignoni says, we need to be sharing the fullness of the truth and nothing less.because I agree with him that God wants everyone to be Catholic.

St. John Chrysostom: “Zeal for the salvation of souls is of so great a merit before God that to give up all our goods to the poor or to spend our whole life in the exercises of all sorts of austerities cannot equal the merit of it. There is NO service more agreeable to God than this one. To employ life in this blessed labor is more pleasing to the Divine Majesty than to suffer martyrdom.”

Again, CC for Christ is a non-denom organization … staffed by Christians of all denominations. The focus is saving souls … by presenting the 4-Spiritual Laws and encouraging Confessional Sinner’s Prayers, and also the new convert joining themselves with a group of believers / a Church Body.

Naturally, we think we know how best to Evangelize, we are the ONE Church … right ?
But, we are not doing as an effective job as are the Protestants at Evangelization … right now. We need to study their efforts & learn from them what is effective, and develop our own Spiritual Law tracts … with the Jesus Prayer, etc … and with emphasis on the Catholic Church and RCIA for those who convert.

Again, Campus Crusade wishes all converts ‘Churched’ … and fully joined to Body of Christ !! I see no harm in working with them, … as a joint Ecumenical effort of all Christians … to preach Christ, and Christ Crucified !! A Pauline mission effort to both Jews and Gentiles, in 21st Century !! St. Paul would welcome our joint efforts … and give his blessing to our endeavors for building the faith and Church body.

 

[brb3]

My experience with Campus Crusade is that they can be aggressivly anti-Catholic, and even agressive with mainline Protestant denominationalists.

That is my own personal experience.

Each person has their own bias(s). God can deal with these issues, as we learn to dialogue with each other … and with the unsaved. We are all ‘clay’ of the Lord, being molded into his workmanship.

Is anything too great for the Lord to use, for his glory ? Paul and the Apostles had massive issues to overcome in their day. And, they did it … they conquered the Roman Empire, and more !!

 

[Bonnie]

I’m not very ecumenical because I’ve seen the problems. Some ecumenical stuff can be fine, but the average uninstructed Catholic will tend to see Protestant churches and the Catholic Church as equal.

I had a conversation this past Sunday that illustrates my point. A woman introduced herself as a member of the parish (I hadn’t seen her before). Told me her husband is Protestant and they go back & forth between his church & the Catholic Church. She said, “God is in all the churches.” I replied, “But we have the Eucharist - they don’t.” She just repeated, “God is in all the churches.” Later my husband noticed (because he was one of the EMs) that the Protestant husband received Communion.

I suspect - had I talked with her more - that I would have found her understanding of the Eucharist to be Protestant.

 

[Semangelof]

Brb3, God bless you!

Even if I’m the only one, you have a brother in me.

 

[brb3]

I watched the program - an ongoing series with Scott Hahn, Ralph Martin, and Michael L…? Some of Hahn’s witness was perhaps born from his early days as a Protestant. I was very surprised that he, usually a staunch Catholic to the core, was suggesting Catholics need to outreach our evangelization efforts similar to JW’s, Mormons, et al. I did not agree with all of his theories, but I think he was speaking about the principle of getting involved with our neighbors. Ralph Martin was more practical in his approach.

Yes … that was the program !
Here’s the deal. Our Catholic Church teaches us [or is trying to if we would listen] … that we are ALL evangelists for the faith.

If each Catholic would only inspire 2 others each year to come to Mass, or try RCIA, or listen to Catholic Radio, or EWTN, etc ---- every 4-5 years we could double our Church’s size. A small mustard seed we plant or water or fertilize … growing into a greatest of trees !!

 

[brb3]

Brb3, God bless you!

Even if I’m the only one, you have a brother in me.

Ecumenism starts small … but, like a snowball rolling down a slope, it gathers mass and entropy !

 

[Koineman]

Wait a minute…I came home from non-denom faith communities several years ago, and the portrayal of n-Cs as evangelistic is actually overblown. Generally there are a handful of them that are into “witnessing”, but they’re a small percentage, and about equal to us Catholics. I know this from personal experience.

As a Protestant, I can affirm this from my own experience as well. Trying to find evangelicals who go out actively to evangelize is like finding hen’s teeth.

 

[Bonnie]

Yes … that was the program !
Here’s the deal. Our Catholic Church teaches us [or is trying to if we would listen] … that we are ALL evangelists for the faith.

If each Catholic would only inspire 2 others each year to come to Mass, or try RCIA, or listen to Catholic Radio, or EWTN, etc ---- every 4-5 years we could double our Church’s size. A small mustard seed we plant or water or fertilize … growing into a greatest of trees !!

Now if you had said THAT in your first post, instead of the business about the Protestant 4 Spiritual Laws, I would not have been negative.

My husband and I are feeling a great burden to work with the people in our new parish. Many haven’t a clue about what the Church teaches, their attendance at Mass is sporadic, and there is a great deal of confusion about Protestant & Native beliefs being conflated into Catholicism.

We are pretty much abandoned by the diocese. Our priest (who had to drive an hour each way every Sunday) is taking an indefinite leave of absence. He had discouraged the people who wanted a parish council, and now they are having an emergency meeting to form a council (which is where my husband is right now). The last time the parish was left without a priest, for about 5 years, many of the people simply switched to nearby Protestant churches.

Please pray for the people of St. Michael’s!

 

[guanophore]

If our Tracts are superior, so be it … lets use them instead. But, we need to incorporate / coordinate our efforts with the Evangelical Protestants ---- who have ‘far more’ experience than most Catholics in evangelizing.

Perhaps you are speaking for yourself, or on behalf of Catholics that you know?

One must give thought to how Catholics and Protestants understand the nature of evangelization and salvation.

Scott Hahn has a new EWTN program on the NEW EVANGELIZATION. Last evening he and others brought up CAMPUS CRUSADE FOR CHRIST … as a group who is doing what our Popes have called on us Catholics to be doing. Scott Hahn had great praise for Campus Crusade, and believes our Pope should be calling on all young Catholics to give 1-2 years to Catholic Evangelization efforts … like the Mormons do !!!

These methods did not originate with Protestants, though I don’t disagree with you.

Scott Hahn has good ideas, we should listen to him ---- and get organized and have an INTERNATIONAL Evangelical Program. Most people don’t even know what Catholics believe … we never talk our faith to them. How can we sit-on-our-hands any longer … and let the Protestants do all the Evangelization ? We need to be at the forefront the
Evangelization of the World.

So, what are you doing?

Most Protestants are out to "save souls’ by using the “sinners prayer” which they believe saves a person. They are wanting a conversion experience. There is nothing wrong with these things, but as has been mentioned, the next step is to lead a person into heresies through “discipleship”.

I wouldn’t dare change of thing with the 4 Laws, and especially the last Confessional Sinner’s Prayer. When I prayed it many years ago, and added in the ‘equivalent’ of the Catholic Jesus Prayer [my own version, heart-felt with full contrition] … well, I had my NEW PENTECOST confirmation in HS.

That’s when I experienced ‘justification’ grace — rebirth Adoption & spiritual Illumination by HS. It was not accompanied by speaking in tongues, but just an overpowering, supernatural conviction of complete forgiveness & adoption by God via Christ.

Many have had life-changing conversions via the FOUR LAWS AND SINNER’S PRAYER ‘confessional’ ----- via Evangelization witness of Christians to the unsaved. Why would we want to change a ‘proven’ means of converting the lost ? Add to it, Yes ! More info on need of the saved to join Church [the Universal Church of Apostles] … and to be Water Baptized at once !! And, get the saved into RCIA and Bible Studys !!!

Yes, I have had the same experience and have used the booklet even with confirmation classes. But our biggest problem is not with the unsaved or the “lost”, but with the unconverted Catholics in the pew, and even more, those who do not occupy the pew! You are right, catechesis and Bible study needs to happen.

If Scott Hahn speaks highly of them … they need to be taken seriously … for the good work they do. Scott Hahn wishes our Catholic Church would take note of their mission, and adopt their success in Evangelization to our own needs !! Maybe not join them… but, learn from them … and improve our mission & evangelization successes !!

So what is your plan?

 

[guanophore]

Now if you had said THAT in your first post, instead of the business about the Protestant 4 Spiritual Laws, I would not have been negative.

My husband and I are feeling a great burden to work with the people in our new parish. Many haven’t a clue about what the Church teaches, their attendance at Mass is sporadic, and there is a great deal of confusion about Protestant & Native beliefs being conflated into Catholicism.

We are pretty much abandoned by the diocese. Our priest (who had to drive an hour each way every Sunday) is taking an indefinite leave of absence. He had discouraged the people who wanted a parish council, and now they are having an emergency meeting to form a council (which is where my husband is right now). The last time the parish was left without a priest, for about 5 years, many of the people simply switched to nearby Protestant churches.

Please pray for the people of St. Michael’s!

I will pray.

Sounds like you and brb3 are ready to implement the bishops plans on evangelization and adult faith formation!

vlc.udayton.edu/

 

[Church_Militant]

Again, CC for Christ is a non-denom organization … staffed by Christians of all denominations.

That’s not true. You can bet your eternal life that they don’t have any faithful Catholics among their numbers. It sure as vitam aeternam wouldn’t be me…and I can "out evangelize those guys with my eyes closed and my hands shackled.

The focus is saving souls … by presenting the 4-Spiritual Laws and encouraging Confessional Sinner’s Prayers, and also the new convert joining themselves with a group of believers / a Church Body.

You’re reading what you want to believe into their stuff, but look at what they say in their follow up.

Now that you have received Christ

          The moment that you received Christ by faith, as an act of the will, many things happened, including the following:

1. 
   *]Christ came into your life (Revelation 3:20 ; Colossians 1:27).
   *]Your sins were forgiven (Colossians 1:14).
   *]You became a child of God (John 1:12).
   *]You received eternal life (John 5:24).
   *]You began the great adventure for which God created you (John 10:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17 ;
   1 Thessalonians 5:18).

1. 
   

             **Can you think of anything more wonderful that could happen to you  than receiving Christ?** Would you like to thank God in prayer right now  for what He has done for you? By thanking God, you demonstrate your  faith.              *To enjoy your new life to the fullest...*

   Fellowship in a Good Church God’s Word instructs us not to forsake “the assembling of ourselves together” (Hebrews 10:25). Several logs burn brightly together; but put one aside on the cold hearth and the fire goes out. So it is with your relationship with other Christians.

              If you do not belong to a church, do not wait to be invited. Take  the initiative; call the pastor of a nearby church where Christ is  honored and **His Word is preached**. Start this week, and make plans to  attend regularly.

   Now you have to know what they’re actually saying here. Now, for us Catholics we can answer mt first red line with something like, “Yeah…like receiving Him every time I go to Mass. Even if it’s twice a day, every day.”
   
   The second line needs to be understood in the context of what Campus Crusade considers “**a Good Church”. **What that means in Protestant-speak is a church where Sola Scriptura is the foundation of their belief system and n****ot a Catholic Church. If you get your hands on their follow up Bible study (which I completed several years ago) you’d see that what they offer is woefully incorrect and grossly biased. (Rightfully so…since they believe that all this stuff, [Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Eternal Security/OSAS) is the fullness of truth.

   Naturally, we think we know how best to Evangelize, we are the ONE Church … right ?

 

[Church_Militant]

But, we are not doing as an effective job as are the Protestants at Evangelization … right now. We need to study their efforts & learn from them what is effective, and develop our own Spiritual Law tracts … with the Jesus Prayer, etc … and with emphasis on the Catholic Church and RCIA for those who convert.

This is your assumption and as they would say in a court, it is not in evidence. The fact is that there are probably just as many Catholics who are working to spread the Gospel, (and possibly more, since we actually outnumber them rather heavily). There are many apostolates like the Militia Immaculata (of which I am one) and many many others who make it their consecrated mission to allow God to use us for the coming of the Kingdom of Jesus in the whole world. You personally may feel that not enough is being done, but joining a n-C evangelistic ministry is not the way we should ever go.

I can think of two passages of scripture that come to mind that I think will apply here.
Luke 10:2
And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send labourers into his harvest.

Luke 17: [9] Doth he thank that servant, for doing the things which he commanded him? [10] I think not. So you also, when you shall have done all these things that are commanded you, say: We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do.

Again, Campus Crusade wishes all converts ‘Churched’ … and fully joined to Body of Christ !! I see no harm in working with them, … as a joint Ecumenical effort of all Christians … to preach Christ, and Christ Crucified !! A Pauline mission effort to both Jews and Gentiles, in 21st Century !! St. Paul would welcome our joint efforts … and give his blessing to our endeavors for building the faith and Church body.

This is your opinion but I beg to differ with you.

You may see no harm in this but your actions would compromise the fullness of the Gospel and give n-Cs access to converts who then would be proselytized away from our most holy faith. That would be scandalous witness on our part, as it would give these noobs the errant impression that what Campus Crusade offers and what we offer are one and the same and that is plainly not the case.

I applaud your zeal for the salvation of souls my friend, but this is not the way to go about it.

We already have tremendously excellent materials, now all we need to do is prayerfully take them up and begin to do as we have been commissioned to do.

Matthew 28: [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

As a Protestant, I can affirm this from my own experience as well. Trying to find evangelicals who go out actively to evangelize is like finding hen’s teeth.

Thank you my friend. I appreciate your forthright (name removed by moderator)ut on this.

 

[brb3]

A – Perhaps you are speaking for yourself, or on behalf of Catholics that you know?

B --So, what are you doing?

C-- Most Protestants are out to "save souls’ by using the “sinners prayer” which they believe saves a person. They are wanting a conversion experience. There is nothing wrong with these things, but as has been mentioned, the next step is to lead a person into heresies through “discipleship”.

D – Yes, I have had the same experience and have used the booklet even with confirmation classes. But our biggest problem is not with the unsaved or the “lost”, but with the unconverted Catholics in the pew, and even more, those who do not occupy the pew! You are right, catechesis and Bible study needs to happen.

E-- So what is your plan?

A…Some of both

B…First thought of this a year ago. EWTN program last nite got me interested in it again. Listening to our Popes on Church’s teaching on Evangelization, reviewing the Apostles method of Evangelizing, recalling my own experiences with CC for Christ, listening to leaders like Hahn. Praying/meditating on this matter. Supporting CC for Christ financially. Taking pulse of CAF on the topic … to see if it has viable potential among Catholics.

C…True, and that is a great thing/work they do. Protestants are often ‘true believers’, generally have had conversion ‘experiences’, have ‘personal’ testimonials they love to share, believe in essential need for having 'personal relationship with Jesus, love Sinner’s Prayers. They don’t know some of their ideas were proposed in the early centuries by heretics, and don’t consider themselves heretics.

D. Wayward Catholics should know better, and are w/o excuse - born with silverspoon in their mouths. Protestants on other-hand, are doing the best they can with big handicaps … and often have valid excuse for these errors/heresies.

Answer me this. Why can our Church, [with the ‘fuller truth’ and history/experience of 2000 years] …a Church promised by Christ it will not fail, allow itself to become complacent, luke-warm, & ho-hum ? Why have our Catholic schools fallen into such a sad state of affairs, why have so many Nuns left their calling, why the recent Priestly moral scandals ? We must be in the last days … when even the ‘elect’ will fall back into disbelief!

E. – Seeking the Lord’s plan, desiring a part in his Kingdom plans on Earth. To share the Gospel every day. To do as Paul … and preach Christ and Christ Crucified everyday, in a small or great way. To keep on keeping on … everyday a new day, with opportunity, hope and the Paraclete in the Authority, setting the daily agenda ! To recall my spiritual birthday, and visualize my final day — one just a good and rich as on the day I first believed/received !

 

[brb3]

That’s not true. You can bet your eternal life that they don’t have any faithful Catholics among their numbers. It sure as vitam aeternam wouldn’t be me…and I can "out evangelize those guys with my eyes closed and my hands shackled.

Lets find out on this. Lets you/I apply to be Campus evangelists for them. Let’s tell them we are former Protestants, now Catholics, —who wish to win lost souls for the Lord.

If we are as good at Evangelism as they … they will love to have us on board !!

 

[brb3]

The fact is that there are probably just as many Catholics who are working to spread the Gospel, (and possibly more, since we actually outnumber them rather heavily). There are many apostolates like the Militia Immaculata (of which I am one) and many many others who make it their consecrated mission to allow God to use us for the coming of the Kingdom of Jesus in the whole world. You personally may feel that not enough is being done, but joining a n-C evangelistic ministry is not the way we should ever go.

Well, the Jesuits do a good job … they are to be applauded and saluted. But, how many of us would qualify to join their ‘exclusive’ ranks ?

I will read up on the Militia Immaculata … probably devoted to / empowered by Mary ?

But, let us recall what scripture says on this matter of us against them, Catholic vs Protestant ideas. ‘If their mission is not of God … it will fail’… now tell me this. Has the Campus Crusade mission failed … after 50 years ? Does Scott Hahn not know of what he speaks ? Am I not a lost soul, they claimed from satan … and introduced to the
Savior King ?

 

[Koineman]

I wouldn’t dare change of thing with the 4 Laws, and especially the last Confessional Sinner’s Prayer.

I would. When I evangelize, I don’t use the sinner’s prayer. I’ve been against it for years. That’s one big reason why I would have a difficult time doing evangelism with most evangelicals. I’m not going to guarantee someone they are genuinely converted and on their way to heaven just because they prayed a prayer. Scripture says SO much more about how to have assurance, and praying a single prayer is NOT one of the ways it indicates.

Many have had life-changing conversions via the FOUR LAWS AND SINNER’S PRAYER ‘confessional’ ----- via Evangelization witness of Christians to the unsaved.

For one thing, are you sure these “many” people were genuinely converted? For another, I think we should use something more substantial to base our conclusions on than personal experience. The sinner’s prayer does not exist in either Scripture or tradition. It is a modern, man-made tradition that started with Charles Finney.

 

[Semangelof]

There are only two positions to take concerning truth, and both of them had their hearing centuries ago in the court-room of Solomon where two women claimed a babe. A babe is like truth; it is one; it is whole; it is organic and it cannot be divided. The real mother of 'the babe would accept no compromise. She was intolerant about her claim. She must have the whole babe, or nothing-the intolerance of Motherhood. But the false mother was tolerant. She was willing to compromise. She was willing to divide the babe-and the babe would have met its death through broadmindedness.

Peace

I think this passage in scripture is an apt example of our situation but I view it differently than you.

I see a child before us doomed to die. A protestant and a catholic stand before the child saying I will not save this child unless I can claim it.

The truth is neither the protestant nor the catholic can claim that child. Unless Christ claims him that child it will die regardless of what church he joins.

I don’t care if that child becomes protestant or catholic I only care that he is in Christ. I lay no claim to him. Raise him catholic in the catholic church, or protestant in the protestant church so long as He is Christs. I trust in the Lord to reveal himself to those who seek Him.

We can debate which one of us is better in hell, Let the child live.

 

[Bonnie]

But, let us recall what scripture says on this matter of us against them, Catholic vs Protestant ideas. ‘If their mission is not of God … it will fail’… now tell me this. Has the Campus Crusade mission failed … after 50 years ?

Take another look at that verse:
Acts 5:38-39

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!”

Gamaliel is speaking only about the Christians. I don’t think it can be used as an umbrella verse to cover all religious undertakings, no matter what the source. Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, have all been around for a VERY long time. Even more recently, LDS, JW, Christian Science, Unity, are all going strong. Error can have great lasting power.

 

[hazcompat]

I think this passage in scripture is an apt example of our situation but I view it differently than you.

I see a child before us doomed to die. A protestant and a catholic stand before the child saying I will not save this child unless I can claim it.

The truth is neither the protestant nor the catholic can claim that child. Unless Christ claims him that child it will die regardless of what church he joins.

I don’t care if that child becomes protestant or catholic I only care that he is in Christ. I lay no claim to him. Raise him catholic in the catholic church, or protestant in the protestant church so long as He is Christs. I trust in the Lord to reveal himself to those who seek Him.

We can debate which one of us is better in hell, Let the child live.

2 Corinthians 6: 14* Do not be yoked with those who are different, with unbelievers. For what partnership do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15What accord has Christ with Beliar? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said:

“I will live with them and move among them,and I will be their God and they shall be my people. 17Therefore, come forth from them and be separate,” says the Lord, “and touch nothing unclean; then I will receive you18and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”

Peace

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