Protestants are neither “unbelievers”, or a demon called Belial, nor are they unclean.
Me too !! But, we know it goes both ways. Many Protestants feel the CC is errant and her popes are the Anti-Christ.
Yeh …but, as you suggest here, ---- he was speaking of the Christians, and that if they were being empowered by God, they would not fail.
500 years isn’t long at all to God. When I was a Protestant I was taught things that were wrong. To paraphrase St. Augustine, wrong is wrong even if it has been taught for 500 years.Now, 50 years isn’t so long … but, 500 yr of Protestantism is quite a time.
No, they won’t, because we’d have to agree with their doctrinal statement, (and there certainly will be one) and I would never give such a false witness like that.Lets find out on this. Lets you/I apply to be Campus evangelists for them. Let’s tell them we are former Protestants, now Catholics, —who wish to win lost souls for the Lord.
If we are as good at Evangelism as they … they will love to have us on board !!
Dr Hahn, much as I admire him, is not speaking with the authority of the church in this matter, and 50 years is less than an eye-blink in the context of the 2,000 years of Christian history. The fact that their doctrines differ from those of the early church writings makes them even less attractive.
Good points Militant. There are some other elements of that follow up too that are problematic besides just CC idea of a “church where the Word is preached”.
As you have testified, it is not the Church that is complacent. On the contrary, the Holy Fathers are calling for us to evangelize. You are right, though, there are many individual Cathlolics that have become this way. I think it is a valid question. Why are there some Catholics like that?
There is a serious need. I think that when someone like yourself develops a passion like this, it is usually connected to a calling. So what is the Lord calling you to do?
I would prefer a FOCUS group myself.Lets find out on this. Lets you/I apply to be Campus evangelists for them. Let’s tell them we are former Protestants, now Catholics, —who wish to win lost souls for the Lord.
If we are as good at Evangelism as they … they will love to have us on board !!
Don’t know. Have you tried?
I don’t think anyone was suggesting that we hinder their work, or speak against it. Just not JOIN.
Wow Koine…this is very Catholic of you to say!
Yes. And not all man made tradtions are harmful. There is nothing WRONG with praying this prayer, but the claim that it has all the effects listed is the issue.
Actually, it’s Arminian: believe first, then you are born again. In the Calvinist view, people are born again first, then they believe. The sinner’s prayer is strongly Arminian because of this.
Please be aware that these are not common attitudes, and not taught by the Church, either. You will find religious zealots everywhere, and the posts you refer to do not reflect the doctrines of the Catholic faith.
Actually it’s Calvinistic. Calvinists believe fully that, in order for one’s profession of faith to be genuine–and indeed, one’s faith itself–one’s life must be changed and exhibit holiness. Much of the current way of using the sinner’s prayer is a distortion of biblical teaching.Originally Posted by Koineman View Post
I would.
I agree. It certainly is ironic, though, that the very people who would probably criticize the Catholic Church for having “man-made traditions” added to the Bible are the very ones who will swear by this sinner’s prayer methodology, which is a theological novelty.
If I ever used this prayer at all, I would do so with great caution, accompanying it with some definite teaching:
- The gospel should be carefully and clearly explained.
The cost involved in following Christ should be conveyed (count the cost!).It should be emphasized that a single prayer cannot be relied upon for salvation. Only Christ can be relied on for salvation, and He must be relied on every day for the rest of one’s life.
Indeed, all the above are scripturally based, and c/w the free-will adoption of the 4 Laws and subsequent praying of a ‘confessional’ Sinner’s Prayer
A— The Sinner’s Prayer gets one the Spirit, then head for the Water !!
Confession of sins and confessing that Jesus is Lord are two different things. Protestants - that I know of - do not have public confession of sin - unless one is giving testimony.
Which have little if anything in common with Catholic teaching, or the majority of Christianity as it has been practiced for more than 2,000 years. You don’t need 4 Laws to “get saved” - you need 7 Sacraments.
Yes, and then…after the prayer?Indeed, all the above are scripturally based, and c/w the free-will adoption of the 4 Laws and subsequent praying of a ‘confessional’ Sinner’s Prayer
Since Protestants don’t have the Confessional Booth … God can use this Protestant evangelization Sinner’s Prayer as a means to draw the lost into making full examination of conscience & full, public confession. Per scripture, by St. Paul the Great … Romans 10:9 “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” !
Romans 10:9 is the scriptural basis for the Sinner’s Prayer … and it is extremely ‘efficacious’ !! Paul was the first evangelist to the Gentiles … and he was the expert on how to win souls to the Lord. Much of what Paul writes was divinely revealed to him by the Lord. You can take it to the bank — that Romans 10:9 was straight from Christ ----- and when believed and prayed, it will redeem the lost 100 %, bringing ‘fire’ down from Heaven !
Nothing is “wrong” that leads to Christ. But nuances of justification/sanctification and depravity are already woven into that prayer. That is why Catholics don’t use it.
They do, it is the “altar call”. People publicly identify themselves by raising their hand, or by going forward to say they are a sinner in need of a saviour.
Many Protestants subscribe to the notion that all of our sins have been forgiven and were paid on the cross, past, present, and future, so there really would be no point in examining one’s conscience, since the sins were already forgiven. I have been told by Reformed Christians that Catholics are lost because we still have a “sin issue”. Sin should be put behind us,and we should not think about it or focus on it.
Indeed that’s true. But does a scripted “sinner’s prayer” that you get someone to pray necessarily involve the spiritual reality that Paul described–believing in the heart? For that matter, why is it even so necessary to have people pray a sinner’s prayer? Don’t you think that if they are truly sorry for their sins and want to repent, they will have plenty of prayers of their own to pray, rather than having to use a scripted one?
You make it sound as if Paul actually used the sinner’s prayer. He did not. It has its roots in the ministry of Charles Finney, and he came very late in church history. One has to wonder how people ever became Christians throughout all the centuries of church history that the sinner’s prayer was unheard of … ?
Baptist are taught to frequently reflect on their lives and ‘walk’ with the Lord … and to ‘repent and rededicate’ their lives to Christ — when the Lord’s HS directs them to. They are encouraged to come before the church body, up to the altar, and to make publicaly known their intentions. First shared with the pastor … who then tactfully summarizes their intentions to the general assembly !!
True … but, God’s ways are oftentimes mysterious and adaptable to where and what the Lost Person needs. God uses the 4 Laws & Sinners Prayers with the Evangelicals … to bring them the Protestant ‘equivalent’ of our 7 Sacraments.Which have little if anything in common with Catholic teaching, or the majority of Christianity as it has been practiced for more than 2,000 years. You don’t need 4 Laws to “get saved” - you need 7 Sacraments.
I’m sorry but you cannot equate that with a sacramental confession. A Baptist minister has no capacity to bind or loose and I know for a fact that he does not hear specific sins and then offer any absolution, which is only found in sacramental confession where “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Nor will any Baptist minister even claim to.
Again, I’m sorry, but there is no “Protestant ‘equivalent’ of our 7 Sacraments” and although it may bring a person to a form of conversion, the scriptural context of the New Testament does not in any way allow for your interpretation. If you are a Catholic then you need to get on the same page as the Church. And again, evangelicals will be pretty quick to tell you that they have no sacraments. Note the following blog article which stemmed from just such a discussion with several n-Cs.
Good luck trying to tell them that. Even you, a convert, don’t seem to grasp the differences or you wouldn’t be espousing this sort of error.
You need to provide some links to these statements by both HH JPII and Dr. Scott Hahn so we can look at the context, because I suspect that that will clarify what exactly was said and what was meant in each case.