The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

If you’re going to continue to just make statements without actually supporting them, then I’ll just reply that yes you are reading into the text something that is not there.

You asked the question: "How on earth can you make the claim Ephesians 2 does not identify the Church as part of Israel? I answered you with: “Because I am not reading into the text something that is not there.” And then I proceeded to firmly support my statement in posts #s 148 and 149.

Now how about you spare me the snide lecturing and actually debate the points in question, ok?

I gave you no “snide” lecture, I merely pointed out the error of your interpretation in which you read into the text something Paul never states.

It’s NEW because previous generation had not experienced this kind of Covenent-- which is what Paul is talking about when he refers to this ‘mystery’.

No, my friend, that God would establish a NEW covenant with national Israel, because the first covenant (the Mosaic) they “broke,” was not a “mystery.” It was in fact anticipated:Jer. 31:31-32 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah]/b], not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.Jeremiah 31:31-40 is the prophetic anticipation of the establishment of a new covenant with Israel. It will not be an extension of the old covenant, the Mosaic, which included the Decalogue, but will be a wholly “new” for that nation. And notice the relationship Yahweh has with that nation: “a husband to them” (not a bridegroom). The Church Christ is now building was never under the “old” covenant, nor did He ever bring her out of Egypt. Hence, He was not referring to the Church when He said, “My covenant which they broke.”

This New Covenant Jeremiah says will be made with “Israel and Judah,” the two kingdoms which made up national Israel. It is not to be made with Gentile nations or the Church (which Jeremiah knew nothing about).

Prior to Jeremiah’s day the nation was split into two kingdoms, Israel (N.) and Judah (S.). But Ezekiel prophesies that in the day the New Covenant is to be established Israel will again be one:Ezek 37:19-28 "…say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand. The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. "They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God. "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. "They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. "My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. "And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."None of this has anything to do with this Church age, Mr. Ex. But all to do with Israel.

Now the Amillennialist arrogantly goes back and allegorically applies those prophetic passages to the Church. But on what basis? The passages themselves? NO! Solely on the presupposition that based on what happened in 70 A.D., God is finished with national Israel and the New Covenant is now being spiritually fulfilled in the Church. A spiritualization of this Covenant promise which, exegetically, was literally to be made with Israel. And it is on this false premise, this false presupposition, that your little jingle, “The New is in the Old concealed and the Old is in the New revealed,” is falsely based.

 

[apophasis]

Continued from previous post:

As I stated in a previous post, although we who make up this wholly, unforseen entity called the Church, which Paul calls the “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4), are forever saved, justified and sanctified in/through/by the “blood” of the New Covenant which Christ inaugurated at Calvary, nevertheless, the New Covenant itself, according to a literal delineation of the Hebrew prophets, must yet to be literally established with that Jewish nation to whom it was promised centuries ago. And this will occur at the second Advent of Israel’s Messiah/King, when at that time He will also establish, on earth, the His promised, Messianic Kingdom (Lk. 1:32-33).

The Apostle Paul, who was given a stewardship from Christ Himself to reveal the mystery of His Church (Eph. 3:1-4; 8-10), is never at variance with the Hebrew prophets in his Epistles. In fact, he makes it very clear in the eleventh chapter of Romans that Israel’s future “fulfillment” her future “acceptance,” and her future “life from the dead” are still viable, prophetic truths. And he warns the Gentiles not to dismiss them in their arrogance toward the “natural brances” (Rom. 11:11-12; 15; 24-29).

It is no accident that in these latter days of this Church age Israel is back as a nation and in its ancient homeland. And it is no wonder that presently the Islamic nations (and eventually all the Gentile nations) under Satanic influence wish to destroy her. After all, destroy that tiny nation and their Messiah/King cannot return, and Satan himself avoids being bound for 1000 years (Rev. 20:1-3). Christians need to be careful as to whom they serve. Christendom as a whole has a reckless history.

 

[lak611]

Continued from previous post:

As I stated in a previous post, although we who make up this wholly, unforseen entity called the Church, which Paul calls the “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4), are forever saved, justified and sanctified in/through/by the “blood” of the New Covenant which Christ inaugurated at Calvary, nevertheless, the New Covenant itself, according to a literal delineation of the Hebrew prophets, must yet to be literally established with that Jewish nation to whom it was promised centuries ago. And this will occur at the second Advent of Israel’s Messiah/King, when at that time He will also establish, on earth, the His promised, Messianic Kingdom (Lk. 1:32-33).

The Apostle Paul, who was given a stewardship from Christ Himself to reveal the mystery of His Church (Eph. 3:1-4; 8-10), is never at variance with the Hebrew prophets in his Epistles. In fact, he makes it very clear in the eleventh chapter of Romans that Israel’s future “fulfillment” her future “acceptance,” and her future “life from the dead” are still viable, prophetic truths. And he warns the Gentiles not to dismiss them in their arrogance toward the “natural brances” (Rom. 11:11-12; 15; 24-29).

It is no accident that in these latter days of this Church age Israel is back as a nation and in its ancient homeland. And it is no wonder that presently the Islamic nations (and eventually all the Gentile nations) under Satanic influence wish to destroy her. After all, destroy that tiny nation and their Messiah/King cannot return, and Satan himself avoids being bound for 1000 years (Rev. 20:1-3). Christians need to be careful as to whom they serve. Christendom as a whole has a reckless history.

You are not getting this from the Bible text itself. They is from your Scofield notes. Dispensationalism is not the proper interpretation.

 

[apophasis]

Looking through the following groupings how would one characterize 12 basic groupings of Christianity in order to correspond to the 12 tribes of Israel.

None of this has anything to do with the 12 Tribes of Israel. This is typical, Amillennial allegorizing tactics. The 12 Tribes of Isreal are the 12 Tribes of Israel, they’re Jewish, not Gentile.

This kind of thinking is similar to Herbert Armstrong’s “Anglo-Israelism.” None of it’s Biblical, none of this was concealed in the Old Testament, and certainly none of this is revealed in the New.

 

[apophasis]

You are not getting this from the Bible text itself. They is from your Scofield notes. Dispensationalism is not the proper interpretation.

Did you not read my O.T. quotes and N.T. references? No, my friend, I am well acquainted with all the eschatological positions. I don’t need “Scofied’s notes.” And I’ve actually studied the prophetic books. Have you?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You asked the question: "How on earth can you make the claim Ephesians 2 does not identify the Church as part of Israel? I answered you with: “Because I am not reading into the text something that is not there.” And then I proceeded to firmly support my statement in posts #s 148 and 149.

We’ve been over this several times now apophasis.

You disagree with me.

I disagree with you.

Apparently a majority of Christianity disagrees with you too apophasis.

apophasis:

I gave you no “snide” lecture, I merely pointed out the error of your interpretation in which you read into the text something Paul never states.

Then what’s this and this?

Did you not say that our method of interpretation is the mother of all cults?

Have you not said that we do a great disservice to the written Word of God when we go back into the O.T. Scriptures and allegorized those prophecies and covenants which literally belong to national Israel and you spiritually apply them to the Church?

You asked why Catholics always outsource, correct?

You also asked why we were not allowed to think for ourselves, right?

Haven’t you said that we’re religiously branding ourselves, shelving our brains, and allowing our religious leaders to do all the thinking for us?

apophasis:

No, my friend…

I’m sorry apophasis, but I am not your friend. I don’t know you from Adam.

And if you were my friend, then you wouldn’t be making the ignorant statements that I highlighted from post 90 and 91 above.

Now if you want to debate this further, then please start a new thread to debate this further. This thread is predicated on the fact that a majority of the Christians who might participate will agree with each other on the initial premise:

The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed.

If you do not agree with this initial premise, then please start a new thread and stop derailing this thread with your ignorant, snide lectures against the teachings of the Catholic Church and many other Churches too.

Goodbye.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You are not getting this from the Bible text itself. They is from your Scofield notes. Dispensationalism is not the proper interpretation.

Thank you lak611.

I’m getting tired of reading the ramblings of apophasis’ dispensational interlocutions and would like to try to get back to the original spirit of this thread if possible.

 

[apophasis]

And 2 Corinthians 6:16 even quotes this very same passage Ezekiel 37 when refering to the Church age… "What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

Look at the context, Ex. Paul is talking to the Corinthian believers about not being in partnership with unbelievers. He says we (the Church) are the temple of the living God so what do we have in common with unbelievers? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? He goes on to point out, by example, that this “separation” principle was also expressed to Israel in the O.T.:

“I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” (Eze. 37:27)

“Therefore come out from their midst and be separate, says the Lord. And do not touch what is unclean; and I will welcome you.” (Isaiah 52:11).

“And I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me, says the Lord Almighty.” (Hos. 1:10)

Paul does not quote the prophets verbatim in this 2 Cor. 6:16-18 passage, but enough to give an O.T. example of this separation principle he is writing about to the Corinthian believers.

Mr. Ex., just because Paul or others quote from the O.T. doesn’t necessarily mean its a fulfillment of those passages. Many times they’re just drawing from the O.T. Scriptures examples to show the continuity of certain spiritual principles. After all, the God of the O.T. and the God of the N.T. is the same.

You need to first understand the context in which a N.T. writer is quoting an O.T. passage.

Look, my friend, I won’t bother you anymore on this subject. I think I’ve made my position clear and you’re clearly getting frustrated with me. Our disagreement is based on the fundamentals of Biblical interpretation (hermeneutics). Mine literal, yours allegorical. Mine Apostolic, yours ecclesiastical. Mine exegetical, yours presuppositional. So obviously we will never agree. But maybe, by the power of God’s grace, one day you’ll come around to accepting His literal Word concerning not only the Church but Israel as well.

Adios my friend :tiphat:

 

[Zooey]

Did you not read my O.T. quotes and N.T. references? No, my friend, I am well acquainted with all the eschatological positions. I don’t need “Scofied’s notes.” And I’ve actually studied the prophetic books. Have you?

Well…since you put it that way:
[SIGN]Actually, I have college credit for the study of the entire Bible, Old & New Testaments alike… [/SIGN]
So, yes, I :yup: have studied the prophetic books. Mr ExNihilo is doing a:thumbsup: very nice job indeed of discussing & explaining them.

And Apophasis? http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif Apophasis is, I fear, doing a very nice job of making me feel like thehttp://bestsmileys.com/angry1/19.gif Cranky &http://bestsmileys.com/angry1/4.gif Curmudgeonly http://bestsmileys.com/wink/1.gifOld Lady that I am…

 

[apophasis]

Well…since you put it that way:
[SIGN]Actually, I have college credit for the study of the entire Bible, Old & New Testaments alike… [/SIGN]
So, yes, I :yup: have studied the prophetic books.

Well then, obviously your problem was with your instructors. Can you get your money back?

Curmudgeonly

Pretty fancy way to just say “crusty.” I’ll bet its all exterior and inwardly you’re quite sweet.

But be at peace my dear lady, I’m gone.

 

[lak611]

I’m gone.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Then Jacob called for his sons and said:

"Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come. Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob; listen to your father Israel.

Reuben, you are my firstborn,
my might, the first sign of my strength,
excelling in honor, excelling in power.
Turbulent as the waters, you will no longer excel,
for you went up onto your father’s bed,
onto my couch and defiled it.

Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords are weapons of violence.
Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed men in their anger
and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.
Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob
and disperse them in Israel.

Judah, your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father’s sons will bow down to you.
You are a lion’s cub, O Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he comes to whom it belongs
and the obedience of the nations is his.
He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk.

Zebulun will live by the seashore
and become a haven for ships;
his border will extend toward Sidon.

**Issachar **is a rawboned donkey
lying down between two saddlebags.
When he sees how good is his resting place
and how pleasant is his land,
he will bend his shoulder to the burden
and submit to forced labor.

Dan will provide justice for his people
as one of the tribes of Israel.
Dan will be a serpent by the roadside,
a viper along the path,
that bites the horse’s heels
so that its rider tumbles backward.
I look for your deliverance, O LORD.

Gad will be attacked by a band of raiders,
but he will attack them at their heels.

Asher’s food will be rich;
he will provide delicacies fit for a king.

Naphtali is a doe set free
that bears beautiful fawns.

Joseph is a fruitful vine,
a fruitful vine near a spring,
whose branches climb over a wall.
With bitterness archers attacked him;
they shot at him with hostility.
But his bow remained steady,
his strong arms stayed limber,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
because of your father’s God, who helps you,
because of the Almighty, who blesses you
with blessings of the heavens above,
blessings of the deep that lies below,
blessings of the breast and womb.
Your father’s blessings are greater
than the blessings of the ancient mountains,
than the bounty of the age-old hills.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

Benjamin is a ravenous wolf;
in the morning he devours the prey,
in the evening he divides the plunder.

All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them, giving each the blessing appropriate to him.

 

[lak611]

All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them, giving each the blessing appropriate to him.

Now we know that Judah is the tribe that Jesus was from, which is evident even in the blessing. St. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin. Who do the other tribes correspond with?

 

[Valke2]

Now we know that Judah is the tribe that Jesus was from, which is evident even in the blessing. St. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin. Who do the other tribes correspond with?

The other 10 tribes became “lost” as a result of the exile.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Now we know that Judah is the tribe that Jesus was from, which is evident even in the blessing. St. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin. Who do the other tribes correspond with?

In the analogy I was thinking that the Orthodox corresponded to Israel whereas Catholicism corresponded to Judah. Beyond that, I’m not really sure how to apply the analogy.

The whole range of Christian thought could be reflected in certain Judaic archteypes.

For example, perhaps Lutheran and other similar reformers would be like the Tribe of Benjamin whereas other groups that are kind of fringe to the point of being non-Christian (such as Mormons) might correspond to Naphtali.

Baptist and Congregational type schools of Christian thought might correspond to Reuben in the sense of trying to get back to the original message of Scripture alone.

Perhaps Simeon and Levi are observed within Anglicanism and the Methodist movement.

One could really interpret these things in many different ways. I’m just trying to find if there is any kind of common denominator that we can agree upon from many different denominations perspectives.

Unlike the other pre-figurings found within the Old Testament, this here thread has primarilly been engaged for the sake of peaceful ecumenical dialogue between different denominations without undue arguments over these finer things.

Nothing at first has to be accurate in this later ecumenical sense. It’s only set forth as a platform for further discussion between Christian denominations and should be understood as a hypothethical until a clearer understanding (if one actually exists) can be found in the hypothesis.

 

[lak611]

In the analogy I was thinking that the Orthodox corresponded to Israel whereas Catholicism corresponded to Judah. Beyond that, I’m not really sure how to apply the analogy.

The whole range of Christian thought could be reflected in certain Judaic archteypes.

For example, perhaps Lutheran and other similar reformers would be like the Tribe of Benjamin whereas other groups that are kind of fringe to the point of being non-Christian (such as Mormons) might correspond to Naphtali.

Baptist and Congregational type schools of Christian thought might correspond to Reuben in the sense of trying to get back to the original message of Scripture alone.

Perhaps Simeon and Levi are observed within Anglicanism and the Methodist movement.

One could really interpret these things in many different ways. I’m just trying to find if there is any kind of common denominator that we can agree upon from many different denominations perspectives.

Unlike the other pre-figurings found within the Old Testament, this here thread has primarilly been engaged for the sake of peaceful ecumenical dialogue between different denominations without undue arguments over these finer things.

Nothing at first has to be accurate in this later ecumenical sense. It’s only set forth as a platform for further discussion between Christian denominations and should be understood as a hypothethical until a clearer understanding (if one actually exists) can be found in the hypothesis.

I can see that. I see Orthodox maybe as being part of the Tribe of Judah also, since they are so similar to Catholic (valid Sacraments and priesthood).

 

[spauline]

I can see that. I see Orthodox maybe as being part of the Tribe of Judah also, since they are so similar to Catholic (valid Sacraments and priesthood).

I already supplied my essay on how the OT schism prefigures the NT schism, and how the twelve tribes are a symbol of the twelve apostles:

blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-7HJjW9kieKlaV2usQKhFiwefjXc-?cq=1&p=82

 

[Rocky]

An interesting article, SPauline. And may the Churches of the East and West reunite in Christ!

 

[spauline]

An interesting article, SPauline. And may the Churches of the East and West reunite in Christ!

thanks, Rocky! yes, may they reunite!

 

[lak611]

I already supplied my essay on how the OT schism prefigures the NT schism, and how the twelve tribes are a symbol of the twelve apostles:

blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-7HJjW9kieKlaV2usQKhFiwefjXc-?cq=1&p=82

That was a very interesting article, and you gave some great insights.