The New Testament may not support Marxism as some say.

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My theory is the proletariat were meant to read between the lines and recognize they would have the power to control who got a job, whether or not well-educated.
If they suppressed genuine religion and sinned together, how do you know their education system was actually so excellent and they weren't just cheating off one another?
 
My theory is the proletariat were meant to read between the lines and recognize they would have the power to control who got a job, whether or not well-educated.
If they suppressed genuine religion and sinned together, how do you know their education system was actually so excellent and they weren't just cheating off one another?
I will try one more time. I answer based on good sources (for definitions, theories and on empirical evidence). Frankly, Moscow University was known to be excellent, that is just general culture, a median American should know that much. The soviets photographed the dark side of the moon before Americans did https://www.rbth.com/history/332872-first-photographed-dark-side-moon and Gagarin was the first man to travel in space. You can agree to that much. You do not get to the moon by assigning incompetent people to their jobs. During the second half of the 20th century, the Soviet Union had higher rates of literacy (99.7%) than the US. The coverage of the social net was amazing- you need to consider the difficulty reaching small towns that are disconnected from main cities during the long winters. You need to imagine how Russia looked in the first part of the 20th century to really appreciate the monumental effort. We have misgivings about communism, but they are not regarding the social net they had.
Now, I really do not know what your goal is. I said before, your messages, your thoughts are very unstructured, which limits how we can respond. Continue your prayer and participation in the sacrament of communion, hopefully it will bring balance and calm.
 
I will try one more time. I answer based on good sources (for definitions, theories and on empirical evidence). Frankly, Moscow University was known to be excellent, that is just general culture, a median American should know that much. The soviets photographed the dark side of the moon before Americans did https://www.rbth.com/history/332872-first-photographed-dark-side-moon and Gagarin was the first man to travel in space. You can agree to that much. You do not get to the moon by assigning incompetent people to their jobs. During the second half of the 20th century, the Soviet Union had higher rates of literacy (99.7%) than the US.
The peoples' bureaus in charge of various industries had the power to deny work, and social gatekeepers of various kinds had the power to inappropriately commit people for what they deemed antisocial behavior which may be a euphemism for not participating in communization. Genuine religion was suppressed.

All of this gave the proletariat the power to deny success and maybe even consign the A-students to a life of entertainment or prostitution unless they kept their spiritual defenses low so the C-students could share in their answers. It gave the proletariat the power to ensure the helpers they depended on remained submitted to rapport throughout their careers. How could we tell if the schools really were good, or if their suppression of religion simply let the C-students cheat off the A-students?

Isn't it sad that the nation spent their best minds and so much money pulling off a victory in space when average working people had to wait years for an apartment and spent hours in lines waiting for food? If Communism was so good, why did they end it? The ultimate testament to effective education is a successful society, but even though I know you'll argue the point, there are no clear signs they achieved it, then they ended Communism.

Wouldn't it be appalling to live in a society where you had to submit to sinning with your neighbors and not praying for yourself when they burned with envy for what you had or knew? What if your teachers required you to have affairs with D-students so as not to be labeled antisocial and subjected to inappropriate psychiatric care? Don't you think selfish people might require it if they had the power?
 
The peoples' bureaus in charge of various industries had the power to deny work, and social gatekeepers of various kinds had the power to inappropriately commit people for what they deemed antisocial behavior which may be a euphemism for not participating in communization. Genuine religion was suppressed.

All of this gave the proletariat the power to deny success and maybe even consign the A-students to a life of entertainment or prostitution unless they kept their spiritual defenses low so the C-students could share in their answers. It gave the proletariat the power to ensure the helpers they depended on remained submitted to rapport throughout their careers. How could we tell if the schools really were good, or if their suppression of religion simply let the C-students cheat off the A-students?

Isn't it sad that the nation spent their best minds and so much money pulling off a victory in space when average working people had to wait years for an apartment and spent hours in lines waiting for food? If Communism was so good, why did they end it? The ultimate testament to effective education is a successful society, but even though I know you'll argue the point, there are no clear signs they achieved it, then they ended Communism.

Wouldn't it be appalling to live in a society where you had to submit to sinning with your neighbors and not praying for yourself when they burned with envy for what you had or knew? What if your teachers required you to have affairs with D-students so as not to be labeled antisocial and subjected to inappropriate psychiatric care? Don't you think selfish people might require it if they had the power?
Dissenter, nothing that I have written as a response to you is an opinion, all is factual. I deserve to be treated with more respect, and not to be put at the defense. You have a very poor knowledge and understanding of this subject, itis so bad, that efforts to correct the many inaccuracies, will sound like I am lecturing you.
Second, your analysis is poor- for example " If Communism was so good, why did they end it? " THEY did not end communism- Gorbachev, Russia's president ended it, and many many Soviet residents were very disappointed. There is so much good analysis on it, read it. I did, and I get it. But I will not write anymore about it, because I feel that you are not treating my words with respect. But so that we are clear were we stand- no matter haw many problems the Soviet Union had, education was very good- 99.7% literacy is an objective measure - there are additional measurements, I am sure they are accesible if you search online. I have experience, from classmates (several international students in grad school, a former US embassy employee in Moscow), immigrants from Soviet Union in the northeast, and a study trip to Russia, in which we used Russian students as guides.
 
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I note a fundamental error in source material. Our tendency is to run to the bible for support of this or that. And that may be fine, but all things related to faith and morals are displayed with greater precision and reasoning in the Catechism, which is illuminated by the correct interpretation of scripture. Relating to subsidiarity, the Church rejects all forms of collectivism, as there is an inherent violation of human dignity in all such governmental forms. Paragraphs 1883-1885 touch on this:
1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."7

1884 God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence.

1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.
 
Very good. I would add, though, that people of good will can legitimately disagree as to the lowest level of social order that can best solve problems. For instance, some will tell you that private health insurance best addresses the needs of a certain society, while others would advocate state management of all health-related costs. Others would advocate state-run social welfare programs rather than forcing people to rely upon private charity. Those are just two examples.

The best solutions could also vary from country to country.
 
Very good. I would add, though, that people of good will can legitimately disagree as to the lowest level of social order that can best solve problems. For instance, some will tell you that private health insurance best addresses the needs of a certain society, while others would advocate state management of all health-related costs. Others would advocate state-run social welfare programs rather than forcing people to rely upon private charity. Those are just two examples.

The best solutions could also vary from country to country.
Not sure how this comment fits into this thread, Regarding health insurance, I only partly agree. It is not a matter of opinion.The main issue is one of trade-offs, and yes, in different systems or regions, the best structure might be different. However, there is consensus on some basic facts. For example no good economist will back up a system of purely privately funded insurance. The argument is similar to forcing all drivers to have car insurance or wear a seatbelt.
Low income families can not pay health insurance, necessarily, there has to be a government subsidy for catastrophic health insurance and pandemic like illness. People are simply not aware of the costs of not having insurance- for example, hospitals can not turn away patients in an ER and poor people without insurance end up not paying the bill, which in turn means that hospitals charge the paying patients more to make up for the loss. So it is an indirect subsidy, but an unfair one, because patients pay more, but others, with equal income, do not. A direct subsidy is spread through more people and affects them irrespectively of how sick they were in a year. Plus, with a direct subsidy, we know the cost. How it is implemented, if the insurance is provided by the state of private companies, can vary across regions, but there is no doubt, from the cost and benefit, that the subsidy is the better alternative for the country.
There are similar arguments to be made for preventive medicine, mental health (which untreated can turn into drug addiction, homelessness, and ultimately increase in crime). Ideologies may influence how receptive people are to facts, education can decrease the ideological divide, but also prayer. Always pray for people to think and educate themselves instead of falling for ideologies. The only acceptable ideology in a society is compassion and love.
 
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Correct. Where, I wonder, has a governmental authority ever voluntarily divested itself of power? Fallen human nature seeks power and authority - organizational Judases, political cancer.
 
But so that we are clear were we stand- no matter haw many problems the Soviet Union had, education was very good- 99.7% literacy is an objective measure - there are additional measurements, I am sure they are accesible if you search online.
Where are you finding this statistic about literacy in cold war era USSR?

You do realize that the Soviet Union was known for propaganda and misinformation in an effort to support their failing system of government...right?
 
Where are you finding this statistic about literacy in cold war era USSR?

You do realize that the Soviet Union was known for propaganda and misinformation in an effort to support their failing system of government...right?
Yes, everybody is aware of propaganda and how people may not have given reliable information in official statistics. Be aware that after the fall of the soviet union and using documents released after Glasnost, there has been projects, in western economies as well as in the former soviet union to construct reliable data bases.

Universal education was fundamental to the development of a socialist state, and resources were assigned accordingly. There was universal primary education in the soviet union and stardardized tests, and there were many competitions to find and recruit talent, especially in applied sciences, engineering, medicine and agriculture. The best and the brightest were pick for military and space.
Of all statistics in the soviet union, literacy is possibly one of the most reliable ones and there is consensus:

Wiki cites the source from 2016 Semetsky I., Gavrov S. "Values, edusemiotics, and intercultural dialogue: From Russia with questions"// Semiotica. Journal of the International Association for Semiotic Studies / Revue de l'Association Internationale de Sémiotique. De Gruyter Mouton, Berlin, 2016. № 212, PP. 111-127.DOI: https://doi.org/10.1515/sem-2016-0127
Then Encyclopedia Britannica: https://www.britannica.com/facts/Russia
Then CIA Factbook: https://user.iiasa.ac.at/~marek/fbook/04/geos/rs.html
 
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Where are you finding this statistic about literacy in cold war era USSR?

You do realize that the Soviet Union was known for propaganda and misinformation in an effort to support their failing system of government...right?
I want to address the suspicion in the comment. It is good to be skeptic of information. Today that applies in general, as there is a lot of misinformation on social media. It is not good to remain skeptic, and distrustful, rather we can respond actively to find the right sources, to compare information, to understand how bias may operate. Good information is equally abundant on social media, and some public libraries have good research desks that can assist in learning about sources.
It took me about 10 minutes to get the links, even though I am familiar with the main sources (Britannica and CIA Factbook) because i read through different options and cross referenced numbers. I did a couple of searches using slightly different wording to see what the internet found. In my case, because I have some experience in the area, I can add some discernment, comment, to the numbers. I have an intuition for numbers that are far off.

Sometimes there are free or low cost online classes from good institutions that can add knowledge
 
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Universal education was fundamental to the development of a socialist state, and resources were assigned accordingly. There was universal primary education in the soviet union and stardardized tests, and there were many competitions to find and recruit talent, especially in applied sciences, engineering, medicine and agriculture. The best and the brightest were pick for military and space.
Of all statistics in the soviet union, literacy is possibly one of the most reliable ones and there is consensus

I'd like briefly to address the topic of education in the Soviet Union. While their achievements in science, math, engineering, and so on were formidable, I have to think that their education system suffered from advancement of one ideology, Marxism-Leninism, as being absolutely true, a kind of non-religious dogma, and that any subject area requiring critical, liberal thinking was mightily compromised. In short, it was one big STEM program. Discussion along the lines of "is communism the true way? --- could the various religions be right and could we be wrong? --- what does the West get right that we don't?", and so on, would have been dead on arrival.

I see much the same tendency in today's "woke", politically correct college environment in this country. Cranking out high-achieving scientific and technical experts is lionized, but as to the big existential questions, the ones that require moral choices, the ones that deal with man's ultimate end, there seems to be only one acceptable set of answers --- tolerate every diversity that there is unless it is a diversity that hearkens back to traditional concepts of morality, redress historical grievances of groups that see themselves as having been oppressed or treated unjustly (and, in all fairness, many of them were), disrupt the old order of things, in short, a revolutionary ideology. Woe to anyone who goes against this.
 
I'd like briefly to address the topic of education in the Soviet Union. While their achievements in science, math, engineering, and so on were formidable, I have to think that their education system suffered from advancement of one ideology, Marxism-Leninism, as being absolutely true, a kind of non-religious dogma, and that any subject area requiring critical, liberal thinking was mightily compromised. In short, it was one big STEM program. Discussion along the lines of "is communism the true way? --- could the various religions be right and could we be wrong? --- what does the West get right that we don't?", and so on, would have been dead on arrival.

I see much the same tendency in today's "woke", politically correct college environment in this country. Cranking out high-achieving scientific and technical experts is lionized, but as to the big existential questions, the ones that require moral choices, the ones that deal with man's ultimate end, there seems to be only one acceptable set of answers --- tolerate every diversity that there is unless it is a diversity that hearkens back to traditional concepts of morality, redress historical grievances of groups that see themselves as having been oppressed or treated unjustly (and, in all fairness, many of them were), disrupt the old order of things, in short, a revolutionary ideology. Woe to anyone who goes against this.
I referred to the ideological issue in the first response- by stating that the meritocracy was conditional on ideological alignment. Then I got a lot of questions on literacy rate (basic instruction), which I answered. I added some detail for context, and exactly, by stating the preferences of the regime towards certain areas and the favoritism for defense and space, gives an open for an analysis of ideology. In responding I balance accuracy with length- people will read just so much. If we talk ideology, that requires an essay type answer, because it is way more complex than your answer.
Yes, absolutely, "Universal education was fundamental to the development of a socialist state.." exactly puts the focus that one more reason Soviet leaders wanted their children to read well was bc they were given ample Marxist materials for indoctrination.(I did not even go into the little pioneers, that is another essay) Let's not be naive about the leaders, but neither about the people. By the time people were 15 years old, most were profoundly skeptic of the state: you can not teach people well and expect they will stop using their brains. Any US civil servant that spent some time in the Soviet Union, will attest to the many (very witty) jokes that were common amongst the Soviet people. They were very careful how they shared them, nobody wanted to end up in Lubyanka, the building with the best view in Moscow- you could see all the way to Siberia.
I do mind your comment about "woke"- let's not use labels, but focus on what is actually written and what can be developed from it according to interest shown through comments). The academic education in this country excels at just the opposite of what you claim. Students in good schools are trained in analytical thinking. Even in highly technical subjects, this country, above any other in the world, praises innovation (thinking outside the box), personal development, individual initiative. Yes, we respect each field, knowing the limits of our expertise, but we consult with each other. The best places achieve the level of care, because of the ability of American trained professionals to work in teams. I have been lucky to obersved this in different top institutions. One of them was MD Anderson from University of Texas, where a team of specialized doctors and some PhD in physicists (thank nearby NASA in Houston) gave my mother 12 extra years of life after the local hospital said she would be lucky to get to 6 months after a stage IV cancer diagnosis.
I graduated from MIT- many people think that the success of MIT is because people "are smart" as if it was magic. Yeah, people are smart- but the organization is smart as well- every professor there will state, with humility, that they would not have been able to progress in their research had it been for the contributions of their peers, and in many cases, it is an interdisciplinary audience.
So please, do not fall for half backed slogans being hurled in the internet by chat robots, probably from Russia (ironic right?)- education in this country is the best. Hopefully you will support efforts to keep our universities well financed and stop the cutting of funds, especially to liberal arts colleges that forms minds with critical thinking.
 
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I was merely addressing the topic of subsidiarity from the previous post.
I get it. I was confused by that posting. Is it true that the "Church rejects all forms of collectivism" or that "The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism"? I doubt it. Your point on health coverage is very good at shedding light on the issue. An insurance pool can be viewed as a form of collectivism, yet has existed for centuries as an effective way of dealing with uncertainty.
What about collective in microfinance? There is collective responsibility for loans- it is the base for decreasing the cost of borrowing for low income communities and it has been successful. These small communities also use community pools to provide insurance for bad crops, two communities in different areas insure each other's crops to protect in case one of the regions has a bad season (usually bc of weather). I doubt the Catholic Church looking at Aquinas principle of subsidiarity had these examples in mind, rather, I think they were reacting to French absolutism, French Revolution and its aftermath.
 
I do mind your comment about "woke"- let's not use labels, but focus on what is actually written and what can be developed from it according to interest shown through comments). The academic education in this country excels at just the opposite of what you claim. Students in good schools are trained in analytical thinking.
Yes, but what happens to you if you challenge the politically correct orthodoxy of the times? If you dare to say that such things as critical race theory are flawed? If you question the concept of fluid and socially conditioned gender? That's what I'm getting at.
 
I get it. I was confused by that posting. Is it true that the "Church rejects all forms of collectivism" or that "The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism"? I doubt it.

I wasn't the one who made those assertions. Some paleo-conservatives would have us all living on small freehold farms, milking our own cows and engaging in small-scale craftwork. Again, people of good will can legitimately differ as to whether larger-scale collectives perform Task X better than those that are smaller and closer to the individual. Such difference of opinion does not vitiate the principle of subsidiarity.
 
I wasn't the one who made those assertions. Some paleo-conservatives would have us all living on small freehold farms, milking our own cows and engaging in small-scale craftwork. Again, people of good will can legitimately differ as to whether larger-scale collectives perform Task X better than those that are smaller and closer to the individual. Such difference of opinion does not vitiate the principle of subsidiarity.
I know, I think you gave a good example. My question is literally exactly a question. Is it true that the Church opposes any kind of collectivism, based on the principle of collectivism? I did a little research bc it sounded strange, and I gave examples- one of them based on your posting- that make me question the statement.
 
Yes, but what happens to you if you challenge the politically correct orthodoxy of the times? If you dare to say that such things as critical race theory are flawed? If you question the concept of fluid and socially conditioned gender? That's what I'm getting at.
How does it relate to what I wrote? It is offensive to frame my answers, which were carefully addressing each issue posted to me as woke. Being accurate and objective, means not going into an inflammatory cold war ranting against the Soviet Union. Read over my responses, I did not endorse all aspects of Soviet education, I talked about literacy rate (which is basic reading), social net coverage of basic services, because it fitted into the conversation of "working for the poor". At all times, I expressed reservations about the regime (saying that perhaps Pope Francis had been somewhat naive in phrasing the statement as sharing a mission with Marxism, while instead we can share the preoccupation for the poor and marginalized). Why on earth would you go into the minefield of wokeness, and briefly at that, when it is the most complex and divisive, misunderstood and misused issue? Your comment had the effect of sabotaging my input- distracting from what I rightly said by distracting to the most explosive issue at hand. I really mind the treatment.
 
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