The "NO" Case in the Australian SSM Debate

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Joe1 said:
Oh. I see. Your telling me their church was around 2000 years ago with an Apostolic Succession that goes all the way to St. Peter? Who Christ gave his Church too.
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What? Like any number of Orthodox sees or the Coptic Church who almost all claim decendancy directly from an apostle?

Why not go back a step further to the Ethiopian Orthodox who claim direct lineage from Solomon and Sheba?

Actually, why stay in the Christian Sphere at all? Why not the Japanese Emperor who’s 2670 year old lineage supposedly links to the Goddess of Sunlight.

Age really is just a number, and I could claim lineage from Cleopatra if I really wanted. It doesn’t mean anything since it doesn’t logically follow the son is the same as the father so to speak.
 
Rau said:
I realised you meant shouldn’t. But to what right(s) do you refer in the sentence I quoted?
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The same right that the religious profess to follow their faith. There is an equivalent right to not be compelled to follow that faith.

Freedom from religion as I’ve often heard it touted.
 
Joe1 said:
Show me the scripture quote
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Why just one?


The claim that marriage is a sacrament people bestow upon one another is amusing in the above light at best, but you will note that polygamy and taking hordes of concubines is perfectly acceptable to the kinks who enjoy your Gods favor.
 
I see. I concede to the idea of there being different kinds of marriage in the old Testament based off of this chart. However, as your chart shows, there was no homosexual marriage. So I ask you, where did this Church get the authority to go against scripture which condemns homosexual actions?

Also Jesus only spoke of one marriage
 
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Where in scripture does it detail that the use of injections to vaccinate or that piercings are not sinful? You’ve somehow managed to decide these are morally neutral despite scripture to the contrary.

I thought Catholics themselves agreed that doctrine can develop, after all this is why scripture explicitly forbids lending money at interest (Ursury) and now the Institute for the works of Religion (I.E: The Vatican Bank) is one of the most formidable players on the stock market and in the wider financial system.

What Jesus says on marriage actually depends on which Gospel you read, and that refers to the canonical themselves never mind the other literature dug up since. In one divorce is always and without exception forbidden, in another it is permitted to put away and take another spouse if the former was guilty of adultery.

Considering that Jesus also supposedly said one commits adultery merely by finding someone other than your spouse sexually attractive, this isn’t a very high bar for the supposedly eternal nature of marriage.

I agree there isn’t much evidence of homosexual marriage in Judaism, but quite frankly there isn’t much for the rights of women and yet somehow we’ve managed to get beyond the Pauline prohibitions of women teaching other men and that slaves should submit to their owners.

I am sure cherrypicking which issues are essential and which are no longer valid is what makes for a much more pleasurable experience of religion, but let us not pretend the approach is consistent or reasonable.
 
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Joe1 said:
Did any of their sees find the bones of their Apostle?
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Actually yes, several of them claim to have relics or remains of their respective apostles, alongside numerous other objects such as the Ark of the Covanent, the Girdle of the Virgin Mary etc.

I say claim, because while you might have an almost 2000 year old man buried near/under St Peter’s you’ve no guarantee that was actually St Peter and not some random 1st century cobbler alleged to be the body of St Peter by pious tradition.

You’ve got old bones sure, but they could be from any Jew, or any other male adult of that time. This is why before the Reformation there were at least 12 heads of John the Baptist in various Churches across France, England and Germany. I am assuming John wasn’t the legendary Hydra and at least eleven if not more likely all twelve were mistaken.
 
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Verdanty said:
Where in scripture does it detail that the use of injections to vaccinate or that piercings are not sinful? You’ve somehow managed to decide these are morally neutral despite scripture to the contrary.
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Where does it say in Scripture that vaccines are sinful? I never spoke of them
Verdanty said:
I thought Catholics themselves agreed that doctrine can develop, after all this is why scripture explicitly forbids lending money at interest (Ursury) and now the Institute for the works of Religion (I.E: The Vatican Bank) is one of the most formidable players on the stock market and in the wider financial system.
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When you mean doctrine can develop, do you mean that the Church is allowed to contradict the word of God? Also check the Church’s stance on ursury…

 
Verdanty said:
Actually yes, several of them claim to have relics or remains of their respective apostles, alongside numerous other objects such as the Ark of the Covanent, the Girdle of the Virgin Mary etc.

I say claim, because while you might have an almost 2000 year old man buried near/under St Peter’s you’ve no guarantee that was actually St Peter and not some random 1st century cobbler alleged to be the body of St Peter by pious tradition.

You’ve got old bones sure, but they could be from any Jew, or any other male adult of that time. This is why before the Reformation there were at least 12 heads of John the Baptist in various Churches across France, England and Germany. I am assuming John wasn’t the legendary Hydra and at least eleven if not more likely all twelve were mistaken.
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We actually found bones that were found in a very old church that were hidden in a jar that were attributed to St. Peter.


I would like to see pictures of the other Church relics
 
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Verdanty said:
slavery, the rights of women etc we could easily replace ursury with.

Catholicism has probably done more u-turns than any other Christian denomination short perhaps of Mormonism, largely because “Tradition” decides how to read scripture, and Tradition itself is something that adapts and changes to suit the needs of the age.
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Slavery is also not so easily blamed with the church


I would like to see the proof of the Church changing its tradition to suit the needs of the age.
 
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I’m tired of this argument in favour of gay ‘marriage’ in Christianity. Polygamy appeared after the Fall. It was Adam and Eve, that was the original intent. In fact, it took a few generations down the line of Cain before the first polygamist appeared (Lamech). And then later you get concubines and the such.
Christianity is about redemption and for that reason we go back to monogamy and not continue to go further from the original design. Justin Martyr and Irenaeus condemned polygamy with full knowledge of the Old Testament. They were early Christians and probably had a better idea of things. Gay ‘marriage’ is practically a protest against redemption and straying from the path.

I’ll get back on topic:

In Rau’s link:
The ECHR subsequently ruled (on multiple occasions) that the same provision – the right to marry and found a family – does not require a State to legalise same-sex marriage
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This is precisely why the High Court in Belfast ruled in August that Northern Ireland didn’t violate any laws nor did they discriminate. There has been a lot of energy put into forcing NI to cave in, including pressure from London and Dublin. Of course, Australia is not part of the ECHR but liberals around the world always praise it and treat it as a great authority.
 
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ATraveller said:
This is precisely why the High Court in Belfast ruled in August that Northern Ireland didn’t violate any laws nor did they discriminate. There has been a lot of energy put into forcing NI to cave in, including pressure from London and Dublin. Of course, Australia is not part of the ECHR but liberals around the world always praise it and treat it as a great authority.
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I’m ducking out on this thread because I don’t want to engage in yet another debate with a Christian about Same Sex Marriage. But what I do need to correct here is the reason why people in Northern Ireland are upset about the same sex marriage debate.

Northern Ireland did host a resolution where their representatives voted on Same Sex Marriage and it passed. However, due to the way the system is constructed in wake of the Good Friday agreement the two major parties, Sinn Fein and the Unionists, both hold a veto to strike down any measure either one of them finds displeasing. The unionists used their veto to strike down the majority vote on a theological basis, and this has enraged both Sinn Fein and the Independants present.

That’s why they’re getting pressure; because in a supposedly democratic state the Unionists are using vetos to overrule the will of the vote.

 
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Verdanty said:
Freedom from religion as I’ve often heard it touted.
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Like when they go across America tearing down the Ten Commandments, because it is offensive to their sight, you know, things like:

“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”’
“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
“Honor thy father and mother.”
“Thou shalt not kill.”
“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
“Thou shalt not steal.”
“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Is all just repugnant to these people. Can’t believe you even have to endure “In God we Trust” on your currency, on the walls of congress and ‘inalienable rights’ given by our creator such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in your founding documents and constitution.

You are so oppressed I know.

This weeks reading at Mass is very fitting for the west in these times.
Matthew 21:33-46

The Parable of the Wicked Tenants

33 “Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; 35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. 37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures:

‘The very stone which the builders rejected
has become the head of the corner;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it. 44 And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but when it falls on any one, it will crush him.”

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 But when they tried to arrest him, they feared the multitudes, because they held him to be a prophet.
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