the non- difference

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cooterhein said:
I’ve also noticed that non-Catholic Christians have more of a tendency toward certainty of their own identity as ones who are “in Christ,” often accompanied by a vivid story of the exact moment at which God caused them to become Christians. Catholics have more of a tendency to…let’s go ahead and say “not do that.”

Do you think that has something to do with it? Try to imagine yourself as a Christian who’s used to testimonies that include a time at which God makes you a Christian and dramatically changes your life, and then you run into people from a different church who talk about being in a state of grace because of the sacraments but they often aren’t sure whether or not they can say for certain that they are currently in a state of grace. What would you think of those people? I know my first thought was “How can I know if they’re Christians; they don’t even know.”

Normally, I just ask people if they’re Christians or not. (In some detail, of course- it’s more than a “Check yes/no” proposition. The idea is that I don’t know so you tell me). But if you don’t even know, what do you want me to think? Am I supposed to say “I know for sure you’re a Christian” when you won’t even say it about yourself? I’d like to, but in a lot of situations, the person on the Catholic side of the conversation makes it kind of difficult.

Of course, when a Catholic does say they know that God made him/her a Christian while also demonstrating a high degree of understanding of and faith in Catholic teaching, I believe that person right away. More so than with most non-Catholics, actually, just because I know what kinds of barriers you have to get through in order to say that.
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I guess its lucky for me that my being a christian doesnt rely on you believing it huh? Or do you REALLY think its necesary for you to believe that I am a christian it in order for it to be true?
 
ignatius777 said:
I have to admit I am not the least bit impressed with this reasoning, namely that somehow because someone can recite when exactly they “accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior” they are christians and others arent because they dont have such an experience. That just makes no sense whatsover.
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That wasn’t what I said, bro. What I’m talking about is a person’s ability to tell you when exactly God caused them to become a Christian. It’s something God does to you, and it’s noticeable because He indwells you for the first time while causing you to become a new kind of person that is otherwise known as a Christian.

If this ever happened to you, you should know about it. It’s not a small thing among life events.
 
ignatius777 said:
I guess its lucky for me that my being a christian doesnt rely on you believing it huh? Or do you REALLY think its necesary for you to believe that I am a christian it in order for it to be true?
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I think it’s necessary that you have a good reason to believe you’re a Christian, purely for your own sake. As for where I’m involved, though, you shouldn’t expect me to believe this of you unless you have a reason that’s good enough to convince yourself first.

If you decide to respond to this, please respond to what it actually says here.
 
cooterhein said:
I think it’s necessary that you have a good reason to believe you’re a Christian, purely for your own sake. As for where I’m involved, though, you shouldn’t expect me to believe this of you unless you have a reason that’s good enough to convince yourself first.
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How is it any of your business, to begin with? :confused:
That wasn’t what I said, bro. What I’m talking about is a person’s ability to tell you when exactly God caused them to become a Christian. It’s something God does to you, and it’s noticeable because He indwells you for the first time while causing you to become a new kind of person that is otherwise known as a Christian.
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If this ever happened to you, you should know about it. It’s not a small thing among life events.
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I’ve had lots of euphoric religious experiences, and even had face-to-face conversations with Jesus, but these phenomena are consolations for the weak (and believe me, I am weak) - not everyone experiences them, and you can be a perfectly good, zealous Christian without ever having had even one euphoric experience or vision.

The test of whether or not you are a Christian, is whether or not you have been baptized, and are doing your best from day to day to live as you know Jesus would have you live. Not all that exciting, most of the time - but this is what is essential. The rest is just icing and fireworks.
 
cooterhein said:
That wasn’t what I said, bro. What I’m talking about is a person’s ability to tell you when exactly God caused them to become a Christian. It’s something God does to you, and it’s noticeable because He indwells you for the first time while causing you to become a new kind of person that is otherwise known as a Christian.

If this ever happened to you, you should know about it. It’s not a small thing among life events.
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Most catholics can’t remember when God caused them to become christains cause they were babies at the time.
 
jmcrae said:
Actually, all they can tell is a really emotional, euphoric experience that may or may not have been their first encounter with God. 😉
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Sometimes, yeah, that’s possible. But I’m ok at asking the kinds of questions that help you know what God was and wasn’t doing.
Most Catholics know whether or not they are in the state of grace at any given moment.
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I might do a poll on this. Care to guess a percentage for the people at CAF? Want to guess how many even believe it’s possible for someone to know that at any given moment?
What they don’t, and can’t, know, is whether they will die in the state of grace. If they persist in the practice of the Catholic faith, then they probably will, but if they don’t, then the likelihood is reduced - and we don’t know what the future holds. Lots of people have strong faith right up until a certain point, and then declare themselves atheists just before dying. Or something happens to offend them at Church and they just quit. You see it happening to people all the time, and you can’t know that you’re going to be stronger than them, when it comes your turn to be faced with trials.
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Yeah, I know you believe in the loss of salvation, and it’s very important to you. But the last part is pretty interesting- you do realize it’s not on your own strength that you face down trials, right? Your own personal strength has absolutely nothing to do with it, but from the content of this post, you kind of make it seem like it’s all-important.
 
cooterhein said:
I’ve also noticed that non-Catholic Christians have more of a tendency toward certainty of their own identity as ones who are “in Christ,” often accompanied by a vivid story of the exact moment at which God caused them to become Christians.
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The Catholic position is that the event was on a Friday, sometime around 3, sometime around 30AD.

But we still don’t know the exact moment.
 
cooterhein said:
That wasn’t what I said, bro. What I’m talking about is a person’s ability to tell you when exactly God caused them to become a Christian. It’s something God does to you, and it’s noticeable because He indwells you for the first time while causing you to become a new kind of person that is otherwise known as a Christian.

If this ever happened to you, you should know about it. It’s not a small thing among life events.
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God indwells in us from the moment of our conception. If he wasn’t there, we wouldn’t be here.
 
cooterhein said:
Sometimes, yeah, that’s possible. But I’m ok at asking the kinds of questions that help you know what God was and wasn’t doing.
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And again, how is it even any of your business? :confused:
I might do a poll on this. Care to guess a percentage for the people at CAF? Want to guess how many even believe it’s possible for someone to know that at any given moment?
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It would be impossible to make an Examination of Conscience and go to Confession, if you couldn’t know from moment to moment whether or not you are in a state of grace. And since you have to go to Confession as soon as possible after falling from grace, I should think that most Catholics not only know, but consider it both important and possible to know.
Yeah, I know you believe in the loss of salvation, and it’s very important to you. But the last part is pretty interesting- you do realize it’s not on your own strength that you face down trials, right? Your own personal strength has absolutely nothing to do with it, but from the content of this post, you kind of make it seem like it’s all-important.
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We have to cooperate with God’s grace in our lives. If we didn’t, then no one would ever become lost - and yet, people become lost every day.
 
jmcrae said:
How is it any of your business, to begin with? :confused:
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Why would it not be? I never understood the “private religion” kind of thing. What purpose is served by treating this as the sort of business that should ever be hidden?
I’ve had lots of euphoric religious experiences, and even had face-to-face conversations with Jesus, but these phenomena are consolations for the weak (and believe me, I am weak) - not everyone experiences them, and you can be a perfectly good, zealous Christian without ever having had even one euphoric experience or vision.
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I haven’t had any euphoric experiences or dreams or visions either. What I did have was no Holy Spirit within me for a long time followed by having the Holy Spirit within me. It wasn’t really euphoric, although I had been waiting for that to happen for quite some time. It was more of a matter of fact- I was an unregenerate person without the Spirit dwelling within him, and now I am. That’s what just happened.

It wasn’t really euphoric at all, but I don’t think anyone can actually be a Christian unless God actually makes them a Christian and begins indwelling them.
The test of whether or not you are a Christian, is whether or not you have been baptized, and are doing your best from day to day to live as you know Jesus would have you live.
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Here’s a fun question. Let’s say you’ve been baptized and you’re a pretty good person, but God has never indwelt you and God hasn’t caused you to change from an old kind of person into a new kind of person (usually called a Christian). One- do you believe this is possible? Two- is this sort of person a Christian?
 
Bluegoat said:
God indwells in us from the moment of our conception. If he wasn’t there, we wouldn’t be here.
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Romans references the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as our assurance of salvation on a number of occasions. That’s what I was talking about.
 
cooterhein said:
I think it’s necessary that you have a good reason to believe you’re a Christian, purely for your own sake. As for where I’m involved, though, you shouldn’t expect me to believe this of you unless you have a reason that’s good enough to convince yourself first.

If you decide to respond to this, please respond to what it actually says here.
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LOL I have every reason to believe I am a christian and it has nothing to do with you.
 
cooterhein said:
Why would it not be? I never understood the “private religion” kind of thing. What purpose is served by treating this as the sort of business that should ever be hidden?

I haven’t had any euphoric experiences or dreams or visions either. What I did have was no Holy Spirit within me for a long time followed by having the Holy Spirit within me. It wasn’t really euphoric, although I had been waiting for that to happen for quite some time. It was more of a matter of fact- I was an unregenerate person without the Spirit dwelling within him, and now I am. That’s what just happened.

It wasn’t really euphoric at all, but I don’t think anyone can actually be a Christian unless God actually makes them a Christian and begins indwelling them.

Here’s a fun question. Let’s say you’ve been baptized and you’re a pretty good person, but God has never indwelt you and God hasn’t caused you to change from an old kind of person into a new kind of person (usually called a Christian). One- do you believe this is possible? Two- is this sort of person a Christian?
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Its fascinating how you’ve have found a fancy way of asking “Are you saved”? LOL Its hilarious. Yes you know catholics are saved just not “your” way so you dont believe it and since you dont believe it its true for protestants.
 
cooterhein said:
Here’s a fun question. Let’s say you’ve been baptized and you’re a pretty good person, but God has never indwelt you and God hasn’t caused you to change from an old kind of person into a new kind of person (usually called a Christian). One- do you believe this is possible? Two- is this sort of person a Christian?
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What is this even supposed to mean? What is a “pretty good person”? Is this person saying yes to God as much as he can? Is he trying to grow ever closer to Him? Does he even believe in God?

There is no way a person could be in such a state without “God indwelling in him”. God is there if we let him.

You are essentially relegating God to a feeling in your life, whether it comes down to a feeling of connectedness, or like you are living well, or whatever. You are asking him for a proof or sign. These kinds of feelings may have as much to do with your hormones, or the amount of sun in the sky, or your general health, as anything spiritual - feelings are just chemical sensations in the body.

Many very holy people have carried on loving God and obeying him, even when they felt abandoned by him - sometimes for years. I think of Mother Teresa, or Christ himself.

When we feel most abandoned by God can be when we grow closet to the kind of person he wants us to be. Relegating our relationship with God to a singular event or a feeling doesn’t do God justice, and it doesn’t do us justice either.
 
ignatius777 said:
Whats the proof of this “indwelling”?
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The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what’s known as a “brute fact.” The question is therefore misplaced. You could ask what this indwelling is proof of, though.
 
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