the non- difference

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Bluegoat said:
What is this even supposed to mean? What is a “pretty good person”? Is this person saying yes to God as much as he can? Is he trying to grow ever closer to Him? Does he even believe in God?
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A pretty good person is someone who is generally aware of a God who wants him/her to do right and be good, so they make a mostly successful attempt at doing that most of the time. To the rest of the questions- Trying to, Probably, and Of Course. I’m sure you know some people like this.
There is no way a person could be in such a state without “God indwelling in him”. God is there if we let him.
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I was under the impression that God goes and makes His home within certain people if that’s where He decides to go. And then He does, in fact, go there.
You are essentially relegating God to a feeling in your life, whether it comes down to a feeling of connectedness, or like you are living well, or whatever.
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No, I’m not. Please don’t state or imply this again. This is about making God the center of your life and finding assurance of His presence in the reality of…His presence, which is within you, and that’s how you know about it.
You are asking him for a proof or sign.
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Actually, what I was asking for (until I got it) was God’s indwelling presence and transformative action. Since this is the means by which God actually causes someone to become a Christian, it’s not really a sign as much as “the actual thing God does.”
These kinds of feelings may have as much to do with your hormones, or the amount of sun in the sky, or your general health, as anything spiritual - feelings are just chemical sensations in the body.
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You do have to be discerning, this is true. I took a lot of time to figure it out, though.
Many very holy people have carried on loving God and obeying him, even when they felt abandoned by him - sometimes for years. I think of Mother Teresa, or Christ himself.
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And you tell me this because…why? Do you think we would have wound up saying very different things to Mother Teresa while she was still alive?
Relegating our relationship with God to a singular event or a feeling doesn’t do God justice, and it doesn’t do us justice either.
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My relationship with God began, started, or commenced at a particular point in time- a time at which He indwelt me for the first time and transformed me from one kind of person to another. And it wasn’t a feeling, either. For 19 years, I had a body and I was the only one in it. It was an unregenerate body, too. Then at a certain point in time, I stopped being the only person in my body because I was joined by another person called the Holy Spirit. He also caused me to stop being the old kind of person and start being a new kind of person, otherwise known as a Christian. It wasn’t just a singular event, though. This person kept up residence within me and started doing other stuff called sanctification. And that’s where we’re at now- an ongoing relationship where it’s me and a roommate called God living within me.

In short, I do not relegate my relationship with God to a singular event or a feeling that doesn’t do Him justice. I don’t know where you got that, because you didn’t get it from me.

Are you beginning to see the purpose of asking people about these things instead of attributing wild and unflattering things to them? You should do what I do and just ask. Don’t do what you do.

Edit- final note: All of this happened over five years after I was baptized and about two after I initially started asking God to do it.
 
cooterhein said:
snip…My relationship with God began, started, or commenced at a particular point in time- a time at which He indwelt me for the first time and transformed me from one kind of person to another. And it wasn’t a feeling, either. For 19 years, I had a body and I was the only one in it. It was an unregenerate body, too. Then at a certain point in time, I stopped being the only person in my body because I was joined by another person called the Holy Spirit. He also caused me to stop being the old kind of person and start being a new kind of person, otherwise known as a Christian. It wasn’t just a singular event, though. This person kept up residence within me and started doing other stuff called sanctification. And that’s where we’re at now- an ongoing relationship where it’s me and a roommate called God living within me.

.
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You state unregenerated body. What part of you was dead? Your flesh has been alive and well it is your spirit that was in need of regeneration.
How is it man is made unto God’s image. T
 
fbl9 said:
You state unregenerated body. What part of you was dead? Your flesh has been alive and well it is your spirit that was in need of regeneration.
How is it man is made unto God’s image. T
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Indeed, regeneration describes the spiritual transformation of a person whereby God causes the spiritually dead to become spiritually alive. I completely agree. I’m afraid I don’t fully understand what you did in the last sentence, though. If it’s not important, feel free to let it pass.
 
cooterhein said:
Indeed, regeneration describes the spiritual transformation of a person whereby God causes the spiritually dead to become spiritually alive. I completely agree. I’m afraid I don’t fully understand what you did in the last sentence, though. If it’s not important, feel free to let it pass.
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I understood you as meaning only the flesh not as the whole of yourself. :cool:
 
cooterhein said:
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what’s known as a “brute fact.” The question is therefore misplaced. You could ask what this indwelling is proof of, though.
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So basically you have no proof of this “indwelling”. It doesnt surprise me
 
cooterhein said:
That wasn’t what I said, bro. What I’m talking about is a person’s ability to tell you when exactly God caused them to become a Christian. It’s something God does to you, and it’s noticeable because He indwells you for the first time while causing you to become a new kind of person that is otherwise known as a Christian.

If this ever happened to you, you should know about it. It’s not a small thing among life events.
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Thats exactly what you said bro. There is nothing valubable to a persons “christianity” in being able to tell others exactly when hey became a “christian”. I was a christian the moment I was baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit! AMEN!! Thats EXACTLY when it happened
 
A lapsed Christian (baptised and once a full believer in Christ) friend of mine used to say when he heard someone reply to the question, ‘What religion are you?’ that he or she was Catholic. He would say, ‘Well, I am Christian’. Implying that Catholics weren’t Christians.
 
roveau said:
A lapsed Christian (baptised and once a full believer in Christ) friend of mine used to say when he heard someone reply to the question, ‘What religion are you?’ that he or she was Catholic. He would say, ‘Well, I am Christian’. Implying that Catholics weren’t Christians.
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I wonder if that person would have asked the same of a Amish person?
I wonder if that person would stay quiet long enough to understand what Catholic truly means.
 
cooterhein said:
Indeed, regeneration describes the spiritual transformation of a person whereby God causes the spiritually dead to become spiritually alive. I completely agree. I’m afraid I don’t fully understand what you did in the last sentence, though. If it’s not important, feel free to let it pass.
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Besides your good word what sign do we have of this indwelling and regeneration and assurance of salvation that protestants love so dearly?
 
cooterhein said:
My relationship with God began, started, or commenced at a particular point in time- a time at which He indwelt me for the first time and transformed me from one kind of person to another. And it wasn’t a feeling, either. For 19 years, I had a body and I was the only one in it. It was an unregenerate body, too. Then at a certain point in time, I stopped being the only person in my body because I was joined by another person called the Holy Spirit. He also caused me to stop being the old kind of person and start being a new kind of person, otherwise known as a Christian. It wasn’t just a singular event, though. This person kept up residence within me and started doing other stuff called sanctification. And that’s where we’re at now- an ongoing relationship where it’s me and a roommate called God living within me.
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Jesus died for all of us. He did not die exclusively for people who have had experiences such as yours. Salvation is by grace through faith. We are “born again” through water and the Holy Spirit, not through personal religious experiences, altar calls, or anything of the sort.

We are all free to start a relationship with God. All we have to do is “knock on the door.” Catholics (and I’d even venture to say certain Protestant denominations… Lutherans or Anglicans, perhaps?) choose to “knock” through the Sacraments, because that’s how Jesus taught us. Does this mean that God will not save who he pleases? Absolutely not! If God wants you in heaven, that’s where you’ll go. However… He has only promised to save those who die, as Catholics like to define it, in a state of grace, which is unrelated to personal emotional experiences.

Just my take on it. Bash away 😉
 
ignatius777 said:
The sacraments. Too bad you dont have any such certainty expect what you have allowed yourself to believe
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There it is. I think this helps answer the OP pretty well, and I can see why Catholics are so prone to be reticent in answering these kinds of questions.
 
fbl9 said:
Are you sure about that, one can’t baptise themselves:) oh yeah it has to be fresh water not salt water too:)
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I can’t say for certain about the Catholic Church, but the Early Church had a long list of preferences for Baptism, if one isn’t available you go to the next one down. The last one on the list was sand.
 
ignatius777 said:
Thats exactly what you said bro. There is nothing valubable to a persons “christianity” in being able to tell others exactly when hey became a “christian”. I was a christian the moment I was baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit! AMEN!! Thats EXACTLY when it happened
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Amen Ignatius! Me too!
 
Robert_in_SD said:
Totally agree with this. Or, at the very least, lets all first agree on the definition of what a “christian” is before we run around labelling our brothers and sisters as heretics.

Peace,
Robert
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No, that’s my point. There never will be an agreed upon definition, and quite frankly, what people agree on doesn’t matter. It is for God to decide.
 
Nine_Two said:
No, that’s my point. There never will be an agreed upon definition, and quite frankly, what people agree on doesn’t matter. It is for God to decide.
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I guess I’m agreeing with you. Until there’s agreement on what makes a christian, we’re just shouting past each other. I’m not sure people will agree on what makes a person “christian” or “a christian.” But pride seems to play a big part in the discussion. I also agree that what matters in the end is our relationship with God, not someone else’s opinion about our relationship.

Peace,
Robert
 
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