the non- difference

  • Thread starter Thread starter traillius
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
To me Catholic is synomous with christian.
Same here - and if you say “Catholic Christian” or “Christian Catholic” it makes it seem as if there are Catholics who aren’t Christian, but if you just say “Christian” you could be anything from a “pray-at-home” lone ranger, to Seventh Day Adventist, to Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, or Presbyterian, or Mennonite, or Amish, or Presbyterian, or some variety of “non-denominational” whatever, or just about anything, so it makes more sense just to say “Catholic.”

Edited to add: I have never heard of anyone calling himself a “Presbyterian Christian,” or a “Baptist Christian” - it’s just assumed that Presbyterians and Baptists are practicing some form of Christianity. Not sure why it would be different for Catholics. 🤷
 
=jmcrae;7273679]No kidding. If the Holy Spirit could work through Naaman the Leper, or Xerxes the King, then how is it that He cannot work through modern-day non-Christians? 🤷
GREAT POINT!

The better question might be…Does He?

YES HE DOES

BUT…

I wonder how often His Presence is understood?:o

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
There was a thread asking Catholics about this very question recently. The last time I looked, a large portion were saying they would identify as Catholic rather than Christian, because the term Christian is in some way inadequate.
Whenever I hear someone say “I’m a Christian” my mind goes into a spiral wondering which Christianity they possibly attach too. The pro-abortion “christians”, the same sex marriage “christians”, the ordained noncelibate gay partnered “christians”, the God as Mother “christians”, etc.
 
Same here - and if you say “Catholic Christian” or “Christian Catholic” it makes it seem as if there are Catholics who aren’t Christian, but if you just say “Christian” you could be anything from a “pray-at-home” lone ranger, to Seventh Day Adventist, to Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, or Presbyterian, or Mennonite, or Amish, or Presbyterian, or some variety of “non-denominational” whatever, or just about anything, so it makes more sense just to say “Catholic.”

Edited to add: I have never heard of anyone calling himself a “Presbyterian Christian,” or a “Baptist Christian” - it’s just assumed that Presbyterians and Baptists are practicing some form of Christianity. Not sure why it would be different for Catholics. 🤷
Yes, all of those are Christian sub-categories (although some may say LDS or JW are cults).

Except that: If I ask a Baptist his religion and he says “Baptist” rather than “Christian”, I get the impression he thinks too much of his denomination. I asked his religion, not his denomination. Kind of like if you asked a first century Christian, and he said “I follow Paul” instead of “I follow Christ”. Paul would have said (and did say) people like that are far too much into factionalism.
 
Yes, all of those are Christian sub-categories (although some may say LDS or JW are cults).
Yes, but they’re Christian cults, as opposed to Buddhist or Hindu cults. 😉

I know that the Church draws the line at Trinitarian Baptism, but my personal feeling is that, given that much of what is catalogued as “Christian” makes it in based only on technicalities, it probably makes more sense just to include everyone who makes a claim to Christ, whatever they conceive Him to be - even if they are worshipping candy-red Porsche 9-11s named “Jesus” - because, only Jesus knows what’s really in their hearts.
Except that: If I ask a Baptist his religion and he says “Baptist” rather than “Christian”, I get the impression he thinks too much of his denomination. I asked his religion, not his denomination. Kind of like if you asked a first century Christian, and he said “I follow Paul” instead of “I follow Christ”. Paul would have said (and did say) people like that are far too much into factionalism.
Our first century Christians were all following their local Bishops, who were all following Christ with and through Peter. If you said you were a Christian, odds were good that you weren’t worshipping Nero - which was the alternative to being a Catholic Christian in full communion with the Bishops and the Pope.
 
Same here - and if you say “Catholic Christian” or “Christian Catholic” it makes it seem as if there are Catholics who aren’t Christian, but if you just say “Christian” you could be anything from a “pray-at-home” lone ranger, to Seventh Day Adventist, to Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, or Presbyterian, or Mennonite, or Amish, or Presbyterian, or some variety of “non-denominational” whatever, or just about anything, so it makes more sense just to say “Catholic.”

Edited to add: I have never heard of anyone calling himself a “Presbyterian Christian,” or a “Baptist Christian” - it’s just assumed that Presbyterians and Baptists are practicing some form of Christianity. Not sure why it would be different for Catholics. 🤷
I usually answer based on what I think the person wants to know or will understand. So I’d just say christian to a person who doesn’t know much about Christians, or if it was in the context of a discussion of world religions; but if the person was knowledgeable about Christianity, I would probably say Anglican.

But to get back to the point, given that some Catholics seem to want to deliberately distinguish themselves from the term Christian (based on the thread I mentioned) I would not be surprised if that attitude informed some Protestant views on Catholicism. It would certainly be something to think of when answering the question.
 
There was a thread asking Catholics about this very question recently. The last time I looked, a large portion were saying they would identify as Catholic rather than Christian, because the term Christian is in some way inadequate.
I’d answer Catholic, because I see it as a more specific way to say Christian.

It’s sort of like this; imagine I were a square. If another shape asked me what shape I was, I would not tell them I was a quadrilateral or a rectangle, because I generally assume it’s common knowledge that squares are every bit as quadrilateral as rhombuses, trapezoids, parallelograms and etc. 🙂

So no, the term quadrilateral isn’t “inadequate” if I’m speaking to a circle, but if I’m speaking to a fellow quadrilateral, I’ll go into further detail. 🙂
 
I’d answer Catholic, because I see it as a more specific way to say Christian.

It’s sort of like this; imagine I were a square. If another shape asked me what shape I was, I would not tell them I was a quadrilateral or a rectangle, because I generally assume it’s common knowledge that squares are every bit as quadrilateral as rhombuses, trapezoids, parallelograms and etc. 🙂

So no, the term quadrilateral isn’t “inadequate” if I’m speaking to a circle, but if I’m speaking to a fellow quadrilateral, I’ll go into further detail. 🙂
I like that analogy. 👍
 
There was a thread asking Catholics about this very question recently. The last time I looked, a large portion were saying they would identify as Catholic rather than Christian, because the term Christian is in some way inadequate.
I wouldn’t say the term is inadequate. It describes us all as followers of Christ. But the term certainly is more general in application than the terms Catholic or Protestant. I do, however, have a problem with Catholics who have ceded the term christian to non-Catholic Christians. It is a term that describes all of us. It should be a bridge, rather than a dividing line IMHO.

Peace,
Robert
 
I apologize!! It was NEVER my intention to be a jerk. Its just that I have engaged a number of protestants who wont answer questions and I admit I am weak because that really tries my patience. They demand answers but seem not to like answering questions themselves. So once again my apologies All I was hopinig to ascertain was how do we know that this “indwelling” which you speak of is in place. Thats all.
I’m sorry for getting a little upset. I don’t mind answering questions, but I felt like I had answered some questions about what God did to me and then a couple of your follow-up questions were asking for something along the lines of proof (to you) that God had done these things within me. I don’t think I’m able to do much more than tell you what happened. I got a little frustrated because I thought you were asking me to do something that isn’t remotely possible on an internet forum, and I concluded that you were claiming that as a basis for believing my testimony is false. I know what it’s like to get a little frustrated, though, and I think there’s been times when I’ve done more and escaped with less than what I said to you. I’m sorry for calling you a jerk; I should have just explained myself or taken some time away from the thread to find a better response.
From a catholic perspective we see this “indwelling” in the way a catholic lives his or her life by their reception of the sacraments. That includes things like weekly attendance at Mass and reconcilliation. While reception of these sacraments in and of themselves does not prove anything you must admit its a lot easier to say you believe something then it is to live it by attending Mass weekly or going to reconciliation.
Thanks, that helps me understand one of the ways in which we view the sacraments differently. I hope my misunderstanding didn’t come across as if I don’t believe you when you say something is happening. From my perspective (and experience), I don’t approach the sacraments as if their reception automatically equates God’s personal indwelling. If you say you receive the sacraments regularly, of course I’ll believe you. (You technically could lie about it, but I don’t think you will and I never assume that you do). As for whether or not the Holy Spirit is indwelling you, I approach that as a separate question while you might think of it as something that’s more synonymous with reception of the sacraments. That isn’t something that matches my personal experience- I was baptized very early in my teens and wasn’t indwelt or transformed by God until my very late teens. If the two events typically have temporal proximity that is more identical for Catholics, I have no problem with that. If you say that’s what happened, I trust you to do your best to tell the truth about what happened.

From some of these responses, though, they seemed to imply (to me, anyway) that the responder is a Catholic who regularly receives the sacraments but hasn’t ever been indwelt by a person called the Holy Spirit (in that a person besides you indwells your body) or transformed by God as a result of such an indwelling. If a Catholic does happen to say both of these things, I’ll believe either of them just as readily because I trust you to be as truthful as you can about what’s happening to you. It’s also something that closely resembles my own experience through high school plus a little extra, so I have more personal reasons to include it as a scenario worth asking about and examining.

If you choose to describe your sacramental experience as something that reliably leads to the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit and transformation by God, I trust that you wouldn’t make that up either but would only talk about it if that’s what actually happens to you. But I do have to ask about it before I can find out what people have to say.
 
I think you see the bible through your Protestant lenses - a tradition that you don’t even seem to be aware of - but that’s part of the Protestant tradition - a tradition of “no tradition.” so to speak. Despite what you may have been taught to believe when reading the bible, there is certainly room to differ on matters of interpretation, especially regarding the sacraments. I’m Catholic and nothing I believe is contradicted by the bible. Indeed, it is all supported by what Scripture teaches - when read from the Catholic Tradition. But I suppose this is a topic for another thread.

Peace,
Robert
Does Catholic Tradition include anything about the presence and role of the Holy Spirit within a Christian? That can’t be completely absent, can it?

That’s not really the main focus, of course, although it helps. What really matters is whether or not the Holy Spirit dwells within you and has done these things to you. If He has, then He has. If He hasn’t, then He hasn’t. I can’t take responsibility for saying one way or the other. I can only say for myself based on what God’s done with me. It’s the same for you, although you can expect me to ask you what you come up with. In doing so, I fit one of the Protestant stereotypes pretty well. I’m pretty comfortable with this one, though.

Ah, yes, this too: I don’t belong to a tradition of no tradition, and I haven’t been taught that there’s no room to differ on matters of interpretation.
 
Does Catholic Tradition include anything about the presence and role of the Holy Spirit within a Christian? That can’t be completely absent, can it?
The Holy Spirit indwells us when we are baptized - this is why Christ said “by water and the Holy Spirit” in John 3:5. He was talking about being baptized, and that our baptism is the moment of our being born again.

The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Catholic Church, and this is the reason that the Catholic Church cannot teach incorrectly on matters of faith and morals.
 
Thanks, that helps me understand one of the ways in which we view the sacraments differently. I hope my misunderstanding didn’t come across as if I don’t believe you when you say something is happening. From my perspective (and experience), I don’t approach the sacraments as if their reception automatically equates God’s personal indwelling.
If you’ve only ever received them in a Protestant church, then other than baptism, they were in fact, symbolic only, since Protestant pastors don’t have the ability to actually do the Sacraments, since they are not Catholic priests - they can only outwardly act out the Sacraments, but there is no power there, because Protestants don’t have the Sacrament of Holy Orders, which is what gives priests the ability to actually be used by the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments.
I was baptized very early in my teens and wasn’t indwelt or transformed by God until my very late teens.
Just because you didn’t feel or experience anything tangible at the time, doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit didn’t indwell you at the time of your baptism.

The fact that, later on, you began to experience the consolations of the Holy Spirit, shows that He was already with you, prior to the time of receiving the consolations.
If you choose to describe your sacramental experience as something that reliably leads to the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit and transformation by God, I trust that you wouldn’t make that up either but would only talk about it if that’s what actually happens to you. But I do have to ask about it before I can find out what people have to say.
The Holy Spirit will always do this. Sometimes, we block His consolations by our sins or by our lack of faith, and sometimes He simply chooses not to give us any consolations at that time - but just because we aren’t receiving consolations at a particular point in time, does not mean that the Holy Spirit isn’t acting on you. Sometimes, you might not be aware of anything (just as children are not consciously aware of the fact that they are growing, and usually they can’t feel anything that they can p(name removed by moderator)oint as, “this is the feeling of me, growing” unless they are experiencing growing pains) - but others might notice that things are changing with you - or else maybe the change is so gradual that neither you nor those closest to you are noticing anything - which doesn’t mean that it isn’t happening.
 
…Protestants don’t have the Sacrament of Holy Orders, which is what gives priests the ability to actually be used by the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments.
I’m Catholic, of course, but would you mind explaining, for my benefit, how we came up with the Sacrament of Holy Orders? I’m not disagreeing with you at all, but how can I explain it to my Protestant friends? Is it related to apostolic succession in some way?

Thanks in advance 🙂
 
I’m Catholic, of course, but would you mind explaining, for my benefit, how we came up with the Sacrament of Holy Orders? I’m not disagreeing with you at all, but how can I explain it to my Protestant friends? Is it related to apostolic succession in some way?

Thanks in advance 🙂
The Holy Spirit came to the apostles on Pentacost and gave them the strength to preach and Jesus gave then the power to forgive sins and instructed them to do Mass and to baptize. The evidence is clear enough in scripture
 
There was a thread asking Catholics about this very question recently. The last time I looked, a large portion were saying they would identify as Catholic rather than Christian, because the term Christian is in some way inadequate.
Inadequate? Wow!:eek:
 
I wouldn’t say the term is inadequate. It describes us all as followers of Christ. But the term certainly is more general in application than the terms Catholic or Protestant. I do, however, have a problem with Catholics who have ceded the term christian to non-Catholic Christians. It is a term that describes all of us. It should be a bridge, rather than a dividing line IMHO.

Peace,
Robert
Great post Robert! Very wise!
 
not possible to receive the sacraments and not simultaneously be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Whether they respond is another matter, I suppose. But non-catholics have been indwelt, and subsequently failed to respond.
 
I’m Catholic, of course, but would you mind explaining, for my benefit, how we came up with the Sacrament of Holy Orders? I’m not disagreeing with you at all, but how can I explain it to my Protestant friends? Is it related to apostolic succession in some way?

Thanks in advance 🙂
First, we didn’t “come up with” the Sacrament - it was Jesus who said to the Apostles, “Do this in memory of me,” thus authorizing the Apostles to say Mass.

It was the Apostles who passed down this authority to “do this” to their successors and to those they ordained. This succession continues even today, in the Catholic Church.

Remember, authority can only be given by someone who has the authority to pass down authority - parents authorize babysitters to speak in their name (other babysitters can’t do this); company owners authorize managers to speak in their name (other managers can’t do this), etc.

Random people can’t come along and do this, and people can’t just appoint themselves to be babysitters or managers, without authorization from the original authorities.

Jesus also said, with regard to the Sacrament of Reconciliation, “But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins …” when He cured the paralytic, in Matthew 9:1-8 - thus, we see that Jesus has the authority, which He then gives to the Apostles in the Upper Room on the Sunday evening of His Resurrection, when He said, “Peace be to you! As the Father has sent me, I also send you. Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” in John 20:21-23.

Now, how is it that the Protestants lost this succession? Well, a glance at the history of the Reformation shows us that none of the Protestant reformers was a Bishop in good standing with the Catholic Church - thus, whoever they ordained was not ordained lawfully, and did not receive the authority that Christ had given to His apostles.

Martin Luther was an Augustinian priest. He had no authority to ordain anyone (he was not a Bishop), so those he ordained did not receive what he did not have the authority to give them - authority to confect the Sacraments. John Calvin was a lay man, so those whom he ordained also did not receive anything that he neither had, nor had authority to pass on - that is, authority to confect the Sacraments.

So, the Protestants who trace back to Martin Luther and John Calvin, because they could not receive the authority of the Apostles through either of them, we know that they did not receive any authority - meaning that, even now, they still don’t have any authority to confect the Sacraments.

The Anglicans are a little trickier, because they did have lawfully ordained Bishops ordaining their priests, and they did, in fact, have authority to do this (although they were in schism) for a short while, until one of their Kings decided to change the wording of the Ordination ceremony to explicitly exclude any reference to the Sacraments, in order to differentiate Anglicanism from Catholicism and make it more like Lutheranism. At that point, because the form of the Ordination ceremony had fundamentally changed, the authority that goes with it was no longer being passed down. (The Anglicans obviously disagree, but this is the position of the Church.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top