The Omnipotency Contradiction

[Dameedna]

Your hypothetical question (s) reminds me of what was on the website regarding the “Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness’ sake” ads by the American Humanist Association.
The website info did not attack the Pope directly. But they were presenting life without religion. Their conclusion was that one could be the best person possible. One would appreciate the freedom of one’s own personal existence. And so on…

No, what they are saying to you, is live a life that embraces what is good, without a need for reward or a fear of dissapointing something or a fear of hell.

Do the right thing, BECAUSE it is right. Do what is good for the sake of goodness. Submit to goodness without personal motivation. It is wonderful, to lose oneself, for the sake of another.

Same, when it comes to wrong doing. Avoid doing wrong, not because you are afraid of Hell, or afraid of disapointing. Get rid of your narcissism. Stop focusing on what will happen to you, if you do the wrong thing. Do what is right, because you choose to love others, and you don’t want to hurt them.

Love and goodness has never, nor can it ever have anything to do with fear of punishment. If it is, your will…is not your own. Fear, makes the choices for you.

They are saying, submit to a power that is larger than you and your own desires. When you do that, the world becomes a much, much better place and your reward will be great.

This, is what they are actually saying. This, is the athiest mindset.

Athiets, are usually **** at explaining it and as such, they are very , very misunderstood. They are actually a lot more spiritual(despire their non belief and often dislike of religion) than most believers will ever really know.

I will end this saying…Not every non-believer, is an athiest.

 

[Dameedna]

That’s my work. The reconciliation between science and religion. You may help or hinder, as you choose. I’ve spent a lifetime getting nothing but hindrance, so could certainly use some help.

You can’t even begin this journey, if you blame a secular and athiest community, on what a faith based country voted for, and what a faith based government decided to do.

 

[Dameedna]

For example, the speed of light has been regarded as an absolute physical constraint upon the velocity of matter for nearly a century. Yet no one has been persecuted, or tortured for inventing theories which propose that the speed of light can be exceeded. (Admittedly, anyone seeking a professorship in a physics department had best keep such ideas in cold storage until after being granted tenure. That seems a fair way to weed out the incidental crackpots. I do not hold a professorship.)

You’ve mentioned this a few times, and this is a complete side note(but I thought you would be interested).

It is possible, for somethings to travel faster than the speed of light. Einstien’s theory, never said they couldn’t and that something, has now been proven.

If you haven’t heard of that, I’ll let you chew on it. If you have, well…I only understood it recently, so I’m probably just trying to be rather clever by pointing out anothers discovery

 

[PEPCIS]

I agree with you that God initiates, but because we have free will (which for me IS NOT an illusion) we are free to reject grace as well as receive it.

Alas, but the Bible votes against you. Grace ENABLES you to receive, not reject the gospel.

“When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” (Acts 11:18)

“Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 5:31)

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;” (II Timothy 2:25)

Free will would mean that God would instill grace, and that we would respond with repentance. Yet when we read the Word, we are told that God grants faith, repentance, as well as the grace to receive those things. His salvation is ENTIRELY a gift. Man contributes nothing.

That is why the Bible has such clear language regarding man’s supposed free will, stating that there is NOTHING within him that contributes to the state of salvation, but that it is wholly God.

 

[PEPCIS]

My gut instinct, with a 63% average in accuracy, says that the Omnipotency Contradiction needs to be addressed from the view point of religious faith.

The real problem, IMHO, is that we try to define Omnipotency outside of the constraints of what we know about God. The only way that we know anything personal about God is by reading it in His Word.

 

[jkiernan56]

Alas, but the Bible votes against you. Grace ENABLES you to receive, not reject the gospel.

“When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” (Acts 11:18)

“Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 5:31)

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;” (II Timothy 2:25)

Free will would mean that God would instill grace, and that we would respond with repentance. Yet when we read the Word, we are told that God grants faith, repentance, as well as the grace to receive those things. His salvation is ENTIRELY a gift. Man contributes nothing.

That is why the Bible has such clear language regarding man’s supposed free will, stating that there is NOTHING within him that contributes to the state of salvation, but that it is wholly God.

I would suggest you start with definition of terms. That is the beginning step of logic.

The first question to ask is: What is Grace?
Once you have defined that, then you can go to the next step.
Here is something I would like you to consider if you take me up on defining Grace … do you know that there are different kinds of Grace? I have a feeling that I already know what your answer is … call me a psychic … or psychotic … LOL

 

[grannymh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Your hypothetical question (s) reminds me of what was on the website regarding the “Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness’ sake” ads by the American Humanist Association.
The website info did not attack the Pope directly. But they were presenting life without religion. Their conclusion was that one could be the best person possible. One would appreciate the freedom of one’s own personal existence. And so on…

Regarding Dameedna’s post 319

]No, what they are saying to you, is live a life that embraces what is good, without a need for reward or a fear of dissapointing something or a fear of hell.

Dear Dameedna,

Actually, what you wrote is what I was saying only I cut to the chase with:

*"But they were presenting life without religion. Their conclusion was that one could be the best person possible. *

Athiets, are usually **** at explaining it and as such, they are very , very misunderstood. They are actually a lot more spiritual(despire their non belief and often dislike of religion) than most believers will ever really know.

I will end this saying…Not every non-believer, is an athiest

I had those funny **** happen to me also.

I experienced the “spiritual” that you are talking about when I was at my non-theist daughter’s wedding in Alaska. I hung out with her friends so it was first-hand experience.

For my daughter and me being a “believer” or non-believer goes a lot deeper than defined or undefined beliefs. She knows that I will pray for her and others. Occasionally, she will ask for prayers for someone she knows or in her own way ask for her family. On her part, when I am in need, she sends me “good thoughts” which are not only very comforting, they also work.

Another thought…For me, understanding and accepting one’s own spirituality is important. Could it be that debating the talents of a transcendent being – like the topic of this tread-- be a way of finding out about one’s own spirituality?

Blessings,
granny

:snowing: *

 

[jkiernan56]

PEPCIS -

Once you and I have come to a definition of Grace we might be able to bring into the equation its relationship to free will. I have a feeling though that you and I won’t be able to arrive at a common understanding of Grace. I will tell you this much, my understanding of Grace is not just from books or conversation, but rather from a very powerful profound personal experience.

 

[Agripa]

No, what they are saying to you, is live a life that embraces what is good, without a need for reward or a fear of dissapointing something or a fear of hell.

Do the right thing, BECAUSE it is right. Do what is good for the sake of goodness. Submit to goodness without personal motivation. It is wonderful, to lose oneself, for the sake of another.

Same, when it comes to wrong doing. Avoid doing wrong, not because you are afraid of Hell, or afraid of disapointing. Get rid of your narcissism. Stop focusing on what will happen to you, if you do the wrong thing. Do what is right, because you choose to love others, and you don’t want to hurt them.

Love and goodness has never, nor can it ever have anything to do with fear of punishment. If it is, your will…is not your own. Fear, makes the choices for you.

They are saying, submit to a power that is larger than you and your own desires. When you do that, the world becomes a much, much better place and your reward will be great.

This, is what they are actually saying. This, is the athiest mindset.

Athiets, are usually **** at explaining it and as such, they are very , very misunderstood. They are actually a lot more spiritual(despire their non belief and often dislike of religion) than most believers will ever really know.

I will end this saying…Not every non-believer, is an athiest.

Amen!!

 

[grannymh]

EXACTLY!! I’ve alway’s wondered what people plan to do, when they live in a perfect state in Heaven…where no-one needs help, and nothing needs doing.

Bliss…for eternity. Sounds wonderful right? It actually sound rather pointless and meaningless.

What is the point of heaven?

---

The point of heaven? To find the solution to the Omnipotency Contradiction and to collect on the bets that were made on the odds of ever solving it.

 

[grannymh]

EXACTLY!! I’ve alway’s wondered what people plan to do, when they live in a perfect state in Heaven…where no-one needs help, and nothing needs doing.

Bliss…for eternity. Sounds wonderful right? It actually sound rather pointless and meaningless.

What is the point of heaven?

The point of heaven? To find the solution to the Omnipotency Contradiction and to collect on the bets that were made on the odds of ever solving it.

 

[jkiernan56]

The point of heaven? To find the solution to the Omnipotency Contradiction and to collect on the bets that were made on the odds of ever solving it.

Heaven has a point? Hey, can anyone clue me in on this? LOL

 

[Agripa]

The point of heaven and hell is reward and punishment, plain and simple. They act as great motivators here on this earth.

 

[davidv]

The point of heaven and hell is reward and punishment, plain and simple. They act as great motivators here on this earth.

It is simply not that plain and simple. When each of us chooses to limit our understanding of the words used to how we ourselves use them, we generate only friction and no understanding.

Regarding reward and punishment I’ll paraphase a favorite quote from Fr. John Corapi; fear of hell isn’t the best reason to pursue heaven, but it is a good place to start.

 

[jkiernan56]

It is simply not that plain and simple. When each of us chooses to limit our understanding of the words used to how we ourselves use them, we generate only friction and no understanding.

Regarding reward and punishment I’ll paraphase a favorite quote from Fr. John Corapi; fear of hell isn’t the best reason to pursue heaven, but it is a good place to start.

What is your understanding of true FEAR OF THE LORD according to scripture? Do you think it only has to do with fear of hell or is there something more to it in your understanding?

 

[davidv]

What is your understanding of true FEAR OF THE LORD according to scripture? Do you think it only has to do with fear of hell or is there something more to it in your understanding?

I believe “fear of the Lord” is more properly translated as “in awe of His love for me”. Any “fear” would be that of my doing or saying or thinking something that diminished that love, not because I will get punished for it. Particularly that given God’s mercy, there is hope that I won’t get what I truely deserve.

 

[jkiernan56]

I believe “fear of the Lord” is more properly translated as “in awe of His love for me”. Any “fear” would be that of my doing or saying or thinking something that diminished that love, not because I will get punished for it. Particularly that given God’s mercy, there is hope that I won’t get what I truely deserve.

Very well spoken
In all truth, we don’t deserve ANYTHING.

 

[cpayne]

EXACTLY!! I’ve alway’s wondered what people plan to do, when they live in a perfect state in Heaven…where no-one needs help, and nothing needs doing.

Bliss…for eternity. Sounds wonderful right? It actually sound rather pointless and meaningless.

What is the point of heaven?

The “EXACTLY!!” related to the statement that having potential is a better state of affairs than having actuality. I would once again ask the question, How is it “greater” for God to have the potential for improvement, rather than actually being perfect?

As for our own situation, we seem to be rather in the place of kids who observe the adult world. Kids do not really know the “point” of adult life, or what it is like to be an adult, until they are there. Same with us thinking in this life about what it might be like in the next.

 

[Agripa]

It is simply not that plain and simple. When each of us chooses to limit our understanding of the words used to how we ourselves use them, we generate only friction and no understanding.

Regarding reward and punishment I’ll paraphase a favorite quote from Fr. John Corapi; fear of hell isn’t the best reason to pursue heaven, but it is a good place to start.

But how relevant are these notions today? If you lived 2000 years ago, you probably had very, very real notions of heaven and hell right here in real life. You were probably dirt poor, totally uneducated, were oppressed or held in bondage under some very rough forms of government and you owed duties to your oppressors and masters who held the lives of you and your families in their hands. Just having a large meal one day would be like heaven and getting fifty lashes the next day would be hell - don’t you ever wonder if those realities as lived by those who started Christianity had a way of helping create the myths of heaven and hell that many Christians still cling to today??

And what about the fact that heaven and hell concepts were common throughout the Roman and middle eastern worlds of that time?

 

[jkiernan56]

The “EXACTLY!!” related to the statement that having potential is a better state of affairs than having actuality. I would once again ask the question, How is it “greater” for God to have the potential for improvement, rather than actually being perfect?

As for our own situation, we seem to be rather in the place of kids who observe the adult world. Kids do not really know the “point” of adult life, or what it is like to be an adult, until they are there. Same with us thinking in this life about what it might be like in the next.

I respectfully disagree with the statement “that having potential is a better state of affairs than having actuality.”

Also having actuality is NOT a passive boring state of BEING.

If you wanted to go to the Superbowl, would you rather have the potential to get tickets or the actual tickets in your hand?

God is pure actuality and has no potentiality in the sense there is nothing more for God to be gained.