The Omnipotency Contradiction

[PEPCIS]

But then you have to explain why he created ornery people like me.

He didn’t. Adam’s sin made us “ornery.”

You also must explain why He created you.

What can I say? I’m “special!”

Perfect confusion would explain these lapses on His part, but the universe is too elegantly constructed for that hypothesis to work.

It’s odd that you see the MACRO of the universe, but fail to see the sublime elegance of the human species.

It often seems to me that religious theories would make a lot more sense if man didn’t exist. Maybe the Creator didn’t make us after all.

Now, now, now…be careful…you might just end up believing that.

 

[PEPCIS]

God cannot do anything that will not in the end bring Him more glory.

I like that. It’s even true!

 

[grannymh]

the sublime elegance of the human species.
.

Dear PEPCIS,

That is a marvelous description of all of us – including those of us who are ornery or cranky. Hear that greylorn. That’s two of us saying the same thing. 2 against 1. That means you have to give in and admit that you are sublime and elegant. :grouphug:

Blessings,
grannymh
:snowing:

 

[greylorn]

Dear PEPCIS,

That is a marvelous description of all of us – including those of us who are ornery or cranky. Hear that greylorn. That’s two of us saying the same thing. 2 against 1. That means you have to give in and admit that you are sublime and elegant. :grouphug:

Blessings,
grannymh
:snowing:

2-1 isn’t fair odds. I’ve handled 4 in a back alley, alone, and it only cost me a plastic wrist. But that was in younger days.

If I trusted agreement, I’d never have chosen my own thoughts on the question of the origin of the universe and of humankind.

At my best, I’ve never been able to look into a mirror and say with any confidence,‘this agglomeration of protoplasm looks like the creation of an omnipotent God.’ Nor have I been able to look at, say, my last quantum mechanics exam and say, “Well, God, You sure did a great job of creating a mind capable of understanding how You put this universe together.”

So, I do not think myself an entity worthy of creation by an omnipotent God. He could have done so much better: Had he chosen to do so, I’d have the mind of Richard Feynman and the body of Arnold Schwartzenegger, with the communicative abilities of Benjamin Disraeli. I’d play piano like Joe Rizzo, and dance like “Cruz.” I’d have been born in the Rockefeller family, and tutored by geniuses.

However, were I to adopt the simple thesis that I as a potential for consciousness have always existed (but unconscious of that potential), and that while God cannot be blamed for creating the darned thing (me as soul), He at least took the trouble to stick it into a body-brain system which weaned it into the preliminary stages of consciousness, that would fit my experience.

That would explain why I (and one or two others) have a couple of things to learn before becoming interesting to human beings who I am neither sleeping with nor supporting financially, Expanded, it might even explain the entire process of creation,.

But honestly, guys and gals, right now, given what we know of human beings, the likelihood that a bunch of pinheads with I.Q.'s just slightly larger than those of chipmunks (us) were created by an omnipotent entity for purely altruistic purposes, is, without a doubt, absolute 100% certainty.

This is no doubt one of the greatest achievements of human intelligence— the realization that an omnipotent entity capable of creating wonderful beings with the highest of mental and moral abilities— created mankind instead. Such an achievement!

How could human beings, many which have extremely limited intelligences but highly developed sexual drives and testosterone levels, who cannot read past 6th grade levels, and who love killing, maiming, or simply annoying other human beings and inflicting unnecessary pain upon small animals, have possibly come into existence except by the efforts of an omnipotent God?

Oh, wait! I know your collective answer! They were created with free will. That explains everything, thank you.

So nevermind this post.

 

[williamric]

Oh, wait! I know your collective answer! They were created with free will. That explains everything, thank you.

I know you’re being sarcastic, but if you think about it, this answer is sufficient

 

[jkiernan56]

Dear PEPCIS,

That is a marvelous description of all of us – including those of us who are ornery or cranky. Hear that greylorn. That’s two of us saying the same thing. 2 against 1. That means you have to give in and admit that you are sublime and elegant. :grouphug:

Blessings,
grannymh
:snowing:

That was hillarious granny!!! Can I join you?

 

[jkiernan56]

So, I do not think myself an entity worthy of creation by an omnipotent God. He could have done so much better: Had he chosen to do so, I’d have the mind of Richard Feynman and the body of Arnold Schwartzenegger, with the communicative abilities of Benjamin Disraeli. I’d play piano like Joe Rizzo, and dance like “Cruz.” I’d have been born in the Rockefeller family, and tutored by geniuses.

But honestly, guys and gals, right now, given what we know of human beings, the likelihood that a bunch of pinheads with I.Q.'s just slightly larger than those of chipmunks (us) were created by an omnipotent entity for purely altruistic purposes, is, without a doubt, absolute 100% certainty.

This is no doubt one of the greatest achievements of human intelligence— the realization that an omnipotent entity capable of creating wonderful beings with the highest of mental and moral abilities— created mankind instead. Such an achievement!

How could human beings, many which have extremely limited intelligences but highly developed sexual drives and testosterone levels, who cannot read past 6th grade levels, and who love killing, maiming, or simply annoying other human beings and inflicting unnecessary pain upon small animals, have possibly come into existence except by the efforts of an omnipotent God?

Oh, wait! I know your collective answer! They were created with free will. That explains everything, thank you.

So nevermind this post.

Greylorn, thanks for the laugh and also your brutal honesty. Those are the qualities of a person I admire almost more than any … honesty and a great sense of humor.

On another note - you sound exactly like CS Lewis in his opening chapter in the book “The problem of pain.” He says it like it is … the way he brutaly used to look at the world and explain its meaning … I highly recommend it …

Rather than see the hole in the donut, I choose to also look at all the good human beings are also capable of and have actually done over the centuries … not necessarily in the name of a particular religion … .but in the name of goodness … goodness for goodness sake … and not just what I can get out of it … I could name you many examples if you would like … and I don’t have to go or stretch too far to do so …

I also look at someone like you as a gift … a unique person that is unlike anyone else in the whole world … and regardless of what negative you are capable of … or even have done … I do know that you are capable of incredible good and also have probably done as well … at least you are a gift to me …

 

[Agripa]

2-1 isn’t fair odds. I’ve handled 4 in a back alley, alone, and it only cost me a plastic wrist. But that was in younger days.

If I trusted agreement, I’d never have chosen my own thoughts on the question of the origin of the universe and of humankind.

At my best, I’ve never been able to look into a mirror and say with any confidence,‘this agglomeration of protoplasm looks like the creation of an omnipotent God.’ Nor have I been able to look at, say, my last quantum mechanics exam and say, “Well, God, You sure did a great job of creating a mind capable of understanding how You put this universe together.”

So, I do not think myself an entity worthy of creation by an omnipotent God. He could have done so much better: Had he chosen to do so, I’d have the mind of Richard Feynman and the body of Arnold Schwartzenegger, with the communicative abilities of Benjamin Disraeli. I’d play piano like Joe Rizzo, and dance like “Cruz.” I’d have been born in the Rockefeller family, and tutored by geniuses.

However, were I to adopt the simple thesis that I as a potential for consciousness have always existed (but unconscious of that potential), and that while God cannot be blamed for creating the darned thing (me as soul), He at least took the trouble to stick it into a body-brain system which weaned it into the preliminary stages of consciousness, that would fit my experience.

That would explain why I (and one or two others) have a couple of things to learn before becoming interesting to human beings who I am neither sleeping with nor supporting financially, Expanded, it might even explain the entire process of creation,.

But honestly, guys and gals, right now, given what we know of human beings, the likelihood that a bunch of pinheads with I.Q.'s just slightly larger than those of chipmunks (us) were created by an omnipotent entity for purely altruistic purposes, is, without a doubt, absolute 100% certainty.

This is no doubt one of the greatest achievements of human intelligence— the realization that an omnipotent entity capable of creating wonderful beings with the highest of mental and moral abilities— created mankind instead. Such an achievement!

How could human beings, many which have extremely limited intelligences but highly developed sexual drives and testosterone levels, who cannot read past 6th grade levels, and who love killing, maiming, or simply annoying other human beings and inflicting unnecessary pain upon small animals, have possibly come into existence except by the efforts of an omnipotent God?

Oh, wait! I know your collective answer! They were created with free will. That explains everything, thank you.

So nevermind this post.

Perhaps its the ancient way in which so many still see or understand God - as its presented to them that causes these very rational and understandable questions? I try to understand how the old view of God worked to support old ways of living and ruling people. Once that is seen, then I can still hold to a rational belief in God as a creative force, but change how God is better seen and understood in a modern age. However, the old view of God, despite all the rational flaws and holes, is far more comforting.

 

[PEPCIS]

Dear PEPCIS,

That is a marvelous description of all of us – including those of us who are ornery or cranky. Hear that greylorn. That’s two of us saying the same thing. 2 against 1. That means you have to give in and admit that you are sublime and elegant. :grouphug:

Blessings,
grannymh
:snowing:

I love the group hug,but you put me next to greylorn!!!

 

[PEPCIS]

At my best, I’ve never been able to look into a mirror and say with any confidence,‘this agglomeration of protoplasm looks like the creation of an omnipotent God.’

Now I thought that you were more intelligent than that. Humans are nothing more than an “agglomeration of protoplasm?” That view went out shortly after the publication of “On the Origin of the Species.” We have since found out that the human body is an intricacy of trillions of cells, each created for their own specific tasks to maintain the efficiency of the body which they operate within.

Nor have I been able to look at, say, my last quantum mechanics exam and say, “Well, God, You sure did a great job of creating a mind capable of understanding how You put this universe together.”

I don’t think it’s so much that you find that God made a mistake because He didn’t create a mind capable of fully understanding the universe in which man stands, as much as you just disbelieve that there is a personal God that man has to answer to.

So, I do not think myself an entity worthy of creation by an omnipotent God. He could have done so much better: Had he chosen to do so, I’d have the mind of Richard Feynman and the body of Arnold Schwartzenegger, with the communicative abilities of Benjamin Disraeli. I’d play piano like Joe Rizzo, and dance like “Cruz.” I’d have been born in the Rockefeller family, and tutored by geniuses.

But then again, if you were God, you’d have done things differently. We understand that. But the real trick is not in knowing what greylorn might do if he were God, but in finding out how God reveals Himself, and then examining that evidence to determine who He is, and what He might expect of His creation.

However, were I to adopt the simple thesis that I as a potential for consciousness have always existed (but unconscious of that potential), and that while God cannot be blamed for creating the darned thing (me as soul), He at least took the trouble to stick it into a body-brain system which weaned it into the preliminary stages of consciousness, that would fit my experience.

It’s an interesting hypothesis, but it ain’t the science that you so wonderfully respect, is it?

How could human beings, many which have extremely limited intelligences but highly developed sexual drives and testosterone levels, who cannot read past 6th grade levels, and who love killing, maiming, or simply annoying other human beings and inflicting unnecessary pain upon small animals, have possibly come into existence except by the efforts of an omnipotent God?

You know what I just realized by your paragraph above? You place those with higher Intelligent Quotients (I’m assuming that would include you) on a higher moral plane than the rest of those “extremely liimited intelligences…who love killing, maiming…”

Part of your problem, IMHO, is the Savior quotient.

Oh, wait! I know your collective answer! They were created with free will. That explains everything, thank you.

So nevermind this post.

“Free will” is nothing more than an illusion.

 

[Pro_Domina]

When people are high on their own pride, everything could be an illusion.

 

[jkiernan56]

Now I thought that you were more intelligent than that. Humans are nothing more than an “agglomeration of protoplasm?” That view went out shortly after the publication of “On the Origin of the Species.” We have since found out that the human body is an intricacy of trillions of cells, each created for their own specific tasks to maintain the efficiency of the body which they operate within.

I don’t think it’s so much that you find that God made a mistake because He didn’t create a mind capable of fully understanding the universe in which man stands, as much as you just disbelieve that there is a personal God that man has to answer to.

But then again, if you were God, you’d have done things differently. We understand that. But the real trick is not in knowing what greylorn might do if he were God, but in finding out how God reveals Himself, and then examining that evidence to determine who He is, and what He might expect of His creation.

It’s an interesting hypothesis, but it ain’t the science that you so wonderfully respect, is it?

You know what I just realized by your paragraph above? You place those with higher Intelligent Quotients (I’m assuming that would include you) on a higher moral plane than the rest of those “extremely liimited intelligences…who love killing, maiming…”

Part of your problem, IMHO, is the Savior quotient.

“Free will” is nothing more than an illusion.

Actually life is an illusion if we don’t have free will.

 

[grannymh]

Actually life is an illusion if we don’t have free will.

Dear jkiernan56,

“Actually life is an illusion if we don’t have free will.” – that is one powerful observation.

Could a corollary be – The Omnipotency Contraction is an illusion when we do have free will and choose to use it in making a judgement call.

After all, freewill gives us the ability to choose something besides science, logic, philosophy and potato chips. We can choose to accept faith as taught by the longest running organization in history. We can choose to avoid the trap of needing an instant solution. (see post 290) We can choose to be free to love a Transcendent Being Who, for some crazy reason, loves us.

Blessings,
granny
jkiernan56, you are on the other side of greylorn :grouphug: !!!

 

[PEPCIS]

Actually life is an illusion if we don’t have free will.

That’s humorous. Free will, as conceptualized by most people, including yourself, is an illusion.

You are saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2)

Until God steps in, you never exercise faith in Him.

We love Him BECAUSE He first loved us. I John 4:19

 

[jkiernan56]

Dear jkiernan56,

“Actually life is an illusion if we don’t have free will.” – that is one powerful observation.

Could a corollary be – The Omnipotency Contraction is an illusion when we do have free will and choose to use it in making a judgement call.

After all, freewill gives us the ability to choose something besides science, logic, philosophy and potato chips. We can choose to accept faith as taught by the longest running organization in history. We can choose to avoid the trap of needing an instant solution. (see post 290) We can choose to be free to love a Transcendent Being Who, for some crazy reason, loves us.

Blessings,
granny
jkiernan56, you are on the other side of greylorn :grouphug: !!!

but a person can’t come to faith unless they get rid of falsehoods in their mind that they hold to be true … the junk in the trunk … its not for me to judge why it is there … to them faith is like asking them to believe in pink elephants … its utter non-sense … CS Lewis little by little was able through his reading and study to throw away the falsehoods and come to faith … through his friend JR Tolken

By the way, what do you mean I am on the other side of Greylorn?

 

[jkiernan56]

That’s humorous. Free will, as conceptualized by most people, including yourself, is an illusion.

You are saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2)

Until God steps in, you never exercise faith in Him.

We love Him BECAUSE He first loved us. I John 4:19

I agree with you that God initiates, but because we have free will (which for me IS NOT an illusion) we are free to reject grace as well as receive it.

 

[grannymh]

but a person can’t come to faith unless they get rid of falsehoods in their mind that they hold to be true … the junk in the trunk … its not for me to judge why it is there … to them faith is like asking them to believe in pink elephants … its utter non-sense … CS Lewis little by little was able through his reading and study to throw away the falsehoods and come to faith … through his friend JR Tolken

By the way, what do you mean I am on the other side of Greylorn?

Dear jkiernan56,

PEPCIS said that I put him next to greylorn in the group hug so since this is a circle, you are on the other side. Greylorn, quit your day job and get back here. Your opinion is requested on this free will and faith issue.

Plus, I think I know what greylorn is saying in these two quotes below from post 302. Though he has too many extra words for my granny brain.

However, were I to adopt the simple thesis that I as a potential for consciousness have always existed (but unconscious of that potential), and that while God cannot be blamed for creating the darned thing (me as soul), He at least took the trouble to stick it into a body-brain system which weaned it into the preliminary stages of consciousness, that would fit my experience.

Below, greylorn is underestimating the people who think similar thoughts by about a million or two. Expanded, those couple of things to learn may not explain the entire process of creation, but it might make a lot of us more comfortable as residents in the universe.

from greylorn post 302.That would explain why I (and one or two others) have a couple of things to learn before becoming interesting to human beings who I am neither sleeping with nor supporting financially, Expanded, it might even explain the entire process of creation

,.

My gut instinct, with a 63% average in accuracy, says that the Omnipotency Contradiction needs to be addressed from the view point of religious faith. This doesn’t mean the whole kit and caboodle of faith. A simple belief in the existence of a Divine Creator Who is able to have a personal relationship with us will do. This won’t be too hard since we are already discussing an Omnipotent Being. I may cave in and review Descartes. My non-theist kid found a couple of my old philosophy textbooks. If the original copy right is 1940, what do you think is the date of my book?

Blessings,
granny
:grouphug:

 

[jkiernan56]

Dear jkiernan56,

PEPCIS said that I put him next to greylorn in the group hug so since this is a circle, you are on the other side. Greylorn, quit your day job and get back here. Your opinion is requested on this free will and faith issue.

Plus, I think I know what greylorn is saying in these two quotes below from post 302. Though he has too many extra words for my granny brain.

Below, greylorn is underestimating the people who think similar thoughts by about a million or two. Expanded, those couple of things to learn may not explain the entire process of creation, but it might make a lot of us more comfortable as residents in the universe.

,.

My gut instinct, with a 63% average in accuracy, says that the Omnipotency Contradiction needs to be addressed from the view point of religious faith. This doesn’t mean the whole kit and caboodle of faith. A simple belief in the existence of a Divine Creator Who is able to have a personal relationship with us will do. This won’t be too hard since we are already discussing an Omnipotent Being. I may cave in and review Descartes. My non-theist kid found a couple of my old philosophy textbooks. If the original copy right is 1940, what do you think is the date of my book?

Blessings,
granny
:grouphug:

If you go back to an earlier posting of Greylorns, he makes mention that infinity is an abstract idea not in reality. So if infinity in math does not exist, a God who is infinite does not exist in his opinion - at least that is the way I currently understand His position. Greylorn, any clarification on what your basic premise and conclusion are? You said this thread is NOT a “rock too heavy for God” idea, but rather trying to understand God by the means of mathmatics. Do I understand you correctly?

 

[Dameedna]

I contend without reservation or equivocation that “potentiality” is a far superior state of being than “actuality.” It is what being alive and conscious is all about.

EXACTLY!! I’ve alway’s wondered what people plan to do, when they live in a perfect state in Heaven…where no-one needs help, and nothing needs doing.

Bliss…for eternity. Sounds wonderful right? It actually sound rather pointless and meaningless.

What is the point of heaven?

If I was an omniscient and omnipotent God, the first thing I’d order up for myself would be a healthy case of amnesia. Then I’d go visit one of my planets and watch soap operas, if I remembered how.

ROFL!! You are a funny fellow(or woman!! )

 

[Dameedna]

So from my perspective, God is an extraordinary entity Who does not know all things.

What about a God, that chooses to not know all things? What about a God, that chooses, limitations? Possible you think?