The Omnipotency Contradiction

[PEPCIS]

Being and freewill are not opposed. God cannot fail to exist because God is perfect. If God could fail to exist he would not be perfect. Thats not a matter of freedom; it is a matter of being. Gods freedom is perfect; and God cannot be perfectly free if God does not perfectly exist. His will and existence is one and the same, eternal and true.

PEPCIS:

You make it sound as if God is a created being, and that His nature dictates his being. God is, of course, outside of His creation. His will is not bound to any power or action outside of His own.

Your confuesion lies in your misconception that “existence” is synonomous with “creation”. Thats not what i said nor meant.

I went back over everything, and I don’t see where we are in disagreement. You said that “God’s freedom is perfect; and God cannot be perfectly free if God does not perfectly exist. His will and existence is one and the same, eternal and true.”

This actually sounds like something I would say.

Here’s some other stuff that sounds like I said it: "So far as God is concernd, creation is a different entity entirely; for creation is merely existing only because there is such a thing as “existence” and is dependent on the ultimate reality of things for its sustenance. God is that which makes it possible for something to exist. God is pure existence. Or rather, God is the “Ultimate Reality” through which and in which all possible realities come to be. Hence the term “the universe came into Existence”, Not, “the universe is existence”.

Freedom of choice is about morality not being.

"PEPCIS:

Not quite. Willing myself to die, and bringing that about is an immoral act. It would also be an immoral act for God - to remove God from His existence would jeapordize and destroy all His glory and the evidence for it in His creation. He freely chooses to live, just as you and I do.

Why would it be immoral for God to not exist? If God doesn’t exist, then there is no such thing as Divine Moral Law.

Exactly. That is why it would be an immoral act for God to remove Himself from existence. His holiness directs His choices.

The rest of the stuff you got wrong…but hey! Who’s counting?

 

[cpayne]

Wait, just a quick comment or maybe it’s a question:

Where does it say God CANNOT lie or sin? In all honesty, I think that God, being able omnipotent according to the OP’s definition of the word, certainly COULD sin or lie if He truly wanted to.

I don’t think this has been answered yet. It’s Titus, chapter 1, verse 2. (Bible. New Testament.)

Of course, people don’t have to accept this if they don’t want to.

 

[jkiernan56]

I don’t think this has been answered yet. It’s Titus, chapter 1, verse 2. (Bible. New Testament.)

Of course, people don’t have to accept this if they don’t want to.

In answer to the question “Where does it say God CANNOT lie or sin?” You will also find it in James 1:13 -

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

 

[cpayne]

In answer to the question “Where does it say God CANNOT lie or sin?” You will also find it in James 1:13 -

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Of course, you know this means that God isn’t omnipotent, and can’t think, and can make a rock He can’t lift.

 

[jkiernan56]

That is why it would be an immoral act for God to remove Himself from existence. His holiness directs His choices.

And again I would reply to this - it is an impossibility for God to remove Himself from existence. It is not something real and therefore in the realm of possibility.

Is God good because of what He wills? Or is it because what God wills that makes Him good?

I would probably say neither. God’s Goodness and His perfect Will are one and the same - His very essence. One does not cause the other. The idea that because God has a free will He is able if He wanted to choose to do evil is a fallacy and contradictory to God’s Goodness. Gods will is not what makes God good. Gods Goodness is Himself just as His will is the same. If God was able to do evil, He would NOT be utterly and completely GOOD. It is because God is completely and utterly Good in essence that He cannot do evil. And yes, God has a free will and is completely FREE. His WILL is the same as His Goodness. It is Himself.

If a premise is FALSE, the conclusion is also FALSE.

You state that free will is the ability to make any choice, including evil ones. I say that is FALSE. It appears you are the one practicing anthropomorphism - applying human attributes to God.

God cannot choose to do evil if He wanted to (even though He has a free will) because that is contradictory to God’s nature - His very nature is Goodness itself. And something that is contradictory (by St. Thomas Aquinas definition) is not real.

One day if you and I become completely holy (sanctified) by God’s grace, we will share the very same divine nature of God - His Goodness. Please do not read into this that I said one day you and I will become God - that is not what I meant.

Yes, that is true of the human race because we are sinners and not yet sanctified.
.

 

[jkiernan56]

Here is a continuation from my previous posting …

You state that free will is the ability to make any choice, including evil ones. I say that is FALSE. It appears you are the one practicing anthropomorphism - applying human attributes to God.

You and I can and do make choices that are not good because we have a fallen sinful nature. Our free will allows us to do that. You cannot attribute that to God. Once our nature has been completely purified (if not in this life, in purgatory) - then our free will cannot and will not make choices that are evil. We will have the same nature of God - His Goodness (but we will never be God - only God can be God).

 

[jkiernan56]

Of course, you know this means that God isn’t omnipotent, and can’t think, and can make a rock He can’t lift.

Huh? Could you explain what you mean … or was this an attempt to be humorous?

 

[cpayne]

Huh? Could you explain what you mean … or was this an attempt to be humorous?

Sorry—it was the latter.

 

[jkiernan56]

Sorry—it was the latter.

Thanks - thats what I thought - but I didn’t want to assume. I see you like St. Thomas because of the quote at the end of your posts. What is your take on this idea that God could do evil if He wanted because He has a free will?

Isn’t that according to St. Thomas contradictory and thus not real … and thus not in the realm of possibility for God in your understanding?

 

[cpayne]

Thanks - thats what I thought - but I didn’t want to assume. I see you like St. Thomas because of the quote at the end of your posts. What is your take on this idea that God could do evil if He wanted because He has a free will?

Isn’t that according to St. Thomas contradictory and thus not real … and thus not in the realm of possibility for God in your understanding?

Yeah. My own view on this whole “omnipotency contradiction” thread was stated way back in post 57. I haven’t changed my mind since then. Most of the thread is based on the misunderstanding of “omnipotence.”

 

[jkiernan56]

Yeah. My own view on this whole “omnipotency contradiction” thread was stated way back in post 57. I haven’t changed my mind since then. Most of the thread is based on the misunderstanding of “omnipotence.”

Thanks. I just went and read your post and thoroughly enjoyed it. You were able to express it very succinctly which is what I loved.

What are your thoughts on the idea that God has the ability to do evil because He has a free will? I am trying to explain why that isn’t TRUE - but I am beginning to realize it may be futile like you said.

 

[cpayne]

Well, “doing evil” implies a lack of goodness. As someone (you?) said earlier, evil does not possess ontological substance–it is a lack of substance, like death (for example) is a lack of life; it is not a substantial thing in itself. For God to do evil implies a lack of goodness in God, or even a potential lack of goodness. In a Being Who is all goodness and has no potential for anything else, this would be impossible.

Nor is this a lack of omnipotence in God. The lack of omnipotence is in us, because we are capable of (1) lacking goodness, and (2) having potential for improvement. Neither of these is a positive thing that God lacks; thus, God’s omnipotence does not allow Him to improve, or to decline, or to change in any way. (Because of the misunderstanding in this thread regarding omnipotence, this last statement has been presented as if it were a bad thing, or a lack in God. However, God’s perfection is not a “lack”–as if God would be greater if only He could improve! :whacky: )

Students coming in—gotta run. Bye!

 

[greylorn]

It’s just a saying. It doesn’t mean that there are multiple realities, but THERE COULD BE. And if there were, God would be unlimited in all of them. For example, if there were another dimension where the 2nd law of thermodynamics did not exist, God would still be unlimited in all His attributes.

You must be saying that God’s NATURE is to exist. But, I don’t accept the notion that God has a “nature.” “Nature” means: “the natural physical world including plants and animals and landscapes etc.” God is not a part of nature. Instead of referring to God’s “nature”, I refer to His “attributes.”

The reason that I reject the notion of “nature” is because it pigeon-holes God, just like you do when you claim that He can’t do something that He chooses not to do. That’s a contradiction in logic, and God is a logical God, therefore it is not true.

Your post contains a contradiction. You don’t want to pigeon-hole God, yet you confidently declare Him to be “unlimited” in all possible universeses. Presumably you declare Him to be omnipotent and omniscient as well. Does this declaration not pigeon-hole God? If nothing else, it means that He cannot have a unique thought.

Incidentally, what are God’s attributes, in your opinion? Anything different than the usual and customary?

 

[jkiernan56]

Well, “doing evil” implies a lack of goodness. As someone (you?) said earlier, evil does not possess ontological substance–it is a lack of substance, like death (for example) is a lack of life; it is not a substantial thing in itself. For God to do evil implies a lack of goodness in God, or even a potential lack of goodness. In a Being Who is all goodness and has no potential for anything else, this would be impossible.

Nor is this a lack of omnipotence in God. The lack of omnipotence is in us, because we are capable of (1) lacking goodness, and (2) having potential for improvement. Neither of these is a positive thing that God lacks; thus, God’s omnipotence does not allow Him to improve, or to decline, or to change in any way. (Because of the misunderstanding in this thread regarding omnipotence, this last statement has been presented as if it were a bad thing, or a lack in God. However, God’s perfection is not a “lack”–as if God would be greater if only He could improve! :whacky: )

Students coming in—gotta run. Bye!

Thank you for that explanation.

 

[jkiernan56]

Incidentally, what are God’s attributes, in your opinion? Anything different than the usual and customary?

The attribute or characteristic of God that moves me almost more than anything is His Humility. If you know who the person of Jesus is, then you will also understand what I mean.

 

[jkiernan56]

Incidentally, what are God’s attributes, in your opinion? Anything different than the usual and customary?

I meant to add that the Humility of God is a characteristic that existed in His essence before the creation of the world. What existed before the world began, we can see in the person of Christ - WHO is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.

 

[greylorn]

I think I understand where the confusion is. Let’s look at this a bit closer.

You stated:

Both are logical statements. However, a logical statement presumes that they are statements rooted in reality. If either of the statements is false, they will appear illogical when they are placed next to each other as you have done.

You might state the following: “God will live forever”

This is a “logical” statement, but it is also false, because God does not have “life” as we understand it in human terms. Therefore, that statement (that God will live forever) is not rooted in reality.

I agree with you 100% that God has free will. But I do not agree that God could NOT will himself to non-existence. This would not only mean that God’s will was limited, but that His power was limited as well.

Does God have the will to kill Himself? No. Does He have the free will to do so? Yes, His will is absolutely free, and He so exercises it to show forth His glory and majesty.

If that is the case, then God does not express glory, because His glory is rooted in the fact that He CHOOSES to bestow goodness on His people. Not all people are the recipients of His particular goodness (compare Romans 9). God does exercise His free will for what He deems righteous.

The statements which you call “logical” are not logical statements. They are simply statements.

For example, the geometric axiom that parallel lines do not meet in infinity is not a logical statement. It is simply a statement. The contrary statement that parallel lines do meet in infinity, likewise. Either statement or axiom can be related to other axioms using logic so as to construct a geometry.

I am sorry to have to make such a basic correction, but since we can all make up whatever statements we want to make about God, nevermind our profound ignorance about the mechanisms of creation, let us at least not make up things about logic to support those arbitrary statements.

The basic principles of logic are quite simple and easy to understand. There are courses available on this subject. I believe that Aristotle has written a treatise on the subject which has been translated into English as is probably available at any bookstore.

 

[jkiernan56]

Your post contains a contradiction. You don’t want to pigeon-hole God, yet you confidently declare Him to be “unlimited” in all possible universeses. Presumably you declare Him to be omnipotent and omniscient as well. Does this declaration not pigeon-hole God? If nothing else, it means that He cannot have a unique thought.

I think Cpayne explains it much better than I ever could in his posts #57 and #150.

Here is some of what he said:

Quote from Cpayne #150
"The lack of omnipotence is in us, because we are capable of (1) lacking goodness, and (2) having potential for improvement. Neither of these is a positive thing that God lacks; thus, God’s omnipotence does not allow Him to improve, or to decline, or to change in any way. (Because of the misunderstanding in this thread regarding omnipotence, this last statement has been presented as if it were a bad thing, or a lack in God. However, God’s perfection is not a “lack” – as if God would be greater if only He could improve! "

We cannot attribute to God what we find in ourselves. God is not lacking in anyway. He is absolute and infinite perfection in BEING with all His attributes. That does not pigeon-hole God.

 

[greylorn]

I meant to add that the Humility of God is a characteristic that existed in His essence before the creation of the world. What existed before the world began, we can see in the person of Christ. The person of Christ is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.

I do not see what is humble about an entity who demands that his creations do not use his name “in vain,” who demands that they shall hold no other entities in higher regard, etc.

As for Jesus, what exactly is humble about someone who stands up in front of thousands of people and declares himself to be the Son of the Creator of the universe?

What is your basis for belief in this “humility” attribute?

 

[PEPCIS]

If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, “God can do all things,” is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent.

The only problem with this is that the Bible teaches that “with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26) It doesn’t say that “all thing that are possible, God can do.” That would limit God to only things that are possible, instead of what the Bible teaches that ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.