The organisation behind the Idol (Pachamama) disposal

[Cirdan_XII]

Throwing wood into water damages wood. They were therefore damaged. I’m finished explaining this to you.

No.

Throwing wood into water can damage. But it is not a foregone conclusion that damage occurs. It all depends on the type of wood, whether or not it is waxed, varnished or otherwise protected, whether you are talking salt or fresh water, the temperature, the duration of the exposure. etc. etc.

Until we see picture of the damage, we cannot be sure that there is any damage.

So far, not only have there been no pictures of the damage, there has not even been a claim or accusation of damage coming from anybody who might have seen or handled the statues since the incident. And surely they would have a reason to escalate this to make the guys who threw them in the river look bad, no? Thus I think that until we learn otherwise, it is logically safe to assume that there is no damage.

 

[CradleRC58]

Throwing them in the water was a terrible mistake. They should have been burned.

 

[Crocus]

The Peter’s Pence Collection derives its name from an ancient custom. In ninth-century England. King Alfred the Great collected money, a “pence,” from landowners as financial support for the Pope. Today, the Peter’s Pence Collection supports the Pope’s philanthropy by giving the Holy Father the means to provide emergency assistance to those in need because of natural disaster, war, oppression, and disease.

 

[phil19034]

I think converts or reverts or repented sinners in general value their Catholicism more because they had to actually take steps to be better Catholics and it is a more central part of their life

Agree 100%. I’m a revert. Converts especially, do research before becoming Catholic. So in this period of bad catechesis, Converts often have researched the issues much better than the average Catholic.

Having said that, I am also aware that a lot of these people like Marshall, Voris and many others are relying on being a Catholic author or pundit or media person for their livelihood, or a significant part of their livelihood. I’m cynical enough to think that sometimes they’re motivated to find a controversy and put themselves front and center, whereas someone who is not trying to promote their book, speaking tour, media website etc might just go quietly pray.

Maybe. However, I don’t think Dr. Marshall and Michael Voris are making more money going against the Bishops. I’ve been a follower of Dr. Marshall for a very long time, and I think may have lost financial opportunities since he went “red pilled” after the McCarrick situation. He used to be a well sought out speaker. He’s been kicked out as a fellow at the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, etc. Dr. Marshall has really hurt his financial prospects.

I think the real reason why guys like Dr. Marshall & Vorris are doing what they are doing is because they truly believe in what they are doing. I don’t think they are chasing the dollars.

God Bless

 

[irenaeuslyons]

I just watched an episode of Gordon Ramsey on Disney Plus visiting Peru. You can see in the program that the locals still worship and make sacrifice to their pagan gods.

 

[Crocus]

My comment “Yes: Peter’s Pence” was in reply to another writer’s question who asked what other charity asks for money without specifying how it will be spent.

Were you claiming the need for more specifics, or more timely notice of disbursements, than is offered by the information:

supports the Pope’s philanthropy by giving the Holy Father the means to provide emergency assistance to those in need because of natural disaster, war, oppression, and disease.

 

[Polak]

Just an update. It has been well over a month now and Mr Pachamama hero still hasn’t got any new content on the website, just one more video talking about his trip to the USA and telling people stay Catholic and pray the rosary.

I really do hope that people are not giving donations to the website, until there is an explanation of where it is going.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Throwing them in the water was a terrible mistake. They should have been burned.

Sounds more like the act of primitive heathens. Why not give them to their owners?

 

[Ammi]

Because the abuse of these objects reached the highest place. So the act of removing them required drastic measures.

Do you think we will see them in the Church or Vatican grounds again?

Probably not.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Because the abuse of these objects reached the highest place. So the act of removing them required drastic measures.

Do you think we will see them in the Church or Vatican grounds again?

Probably not.

And yet the grave financial idolatry in the Vatican that Pope Francis has desperately tried to expunge is barely mentioned by the faction-ites. Woe betide the hypocrisy.

 

[Ammi]

You dont see me stopping him, or criticizing him about that, do you?

More power to him. If he is addressing it going on in his See, then it should be taken care of. Maybe he should throw some things in the Tiber too! Maybe he could learn a lesson on how to deal with abuse.

 

[spunky05]

One point of view is that he and others who share his views are trying to encourage Catholic faithful that they are not alone in this fight. That every day more Catholics are shouting for a return to the traditions and teachings that have since been put aside or forgotten.

I got those exact thoughts after hearing the Austrian fellow speak. I think he actually explains his ideas about Catholic teachings more eloquently than even Marshall. He seems very humble and passionate about returning to Catholic traditions and teachings. His actions with the pachamama idols could have inspired him more than he imagined to do what he is now doing. I wish more cradle Catholics acted like him. There’s too many lukewarm Catholics that prefer to complacently sit back and, worse, keep supporting “Catholic” politicians that advocate for and support organizations (Planned Parenthood) that act against the Catholic Church’s tenets.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I wish more cradle Catholics acted like him.

So do I. (10 char).

 

[Emeraldlady]

I wish more cradle Catholics acted like him.

As a cradle Catholic I wish more converts would embrace the mission of Vatican II which in big part was to renew the Spirit of faith lost in the secularisation since Renaissance times. The traditions specific to that past era did not prevent the erosion of the spiritual virtues. In Evangelii Nuntiandi (1975), Pope St Paul VI wrote…

What matters is to evangelize human culture and cultures (not in a purely decorative way, as it were, by applying a thin veneer, but in a vital way, in depth and right to their very roots), in the wide and rich sense which these terms have in Gaudium et spes, always taking the person as one’s starting-point and always coming back to the relationships of people among themselves and with God. The Gospel, and therefore evangelization, are certainly not identical with culture, and they are independent in regard to all cultures. Nevertheless, the kingdom which the Gospel proclaims is lived by people who are profoundly linked to a culture, and the building up of the kingdom cannot avoid borrowing the elements of human culture or cultures. Though independent of cultures, the Gospel and evangelization are not necessarily incompatible with them; rather they are capable of permeating them all without becoming subject to any one of them. EN, 20.

It is ironic that Pope St PVI also recognised the problem of nostalgia as being a cry for the Gospel rather than a solution to the problem. It is ironic that the spiritual call in the cultures and the nostalgia for past times need the same encounter with the Gospel today to be able to fully live in Christ in the now.

In this same modern world…, and this is a paradox, one cannot deny the existence of real
steppingstones to Christianity, and of evangelical values at least in the form of a sense of emptiness or nostalgia. It would not be an exaggeration to say that there exists a powerful and tragic appeal to be evangelized. EN, 55.

Destroying the cultural expressions of the spiritual call of the Amazonians is just further destroying the steppingstones to faith that they themselves need.

 

[Fauken]

It is ironic that Pope St PVI also recognised the problem of nostalgia as being a cry for the Gospel rather than a solution to the problem.

So that’s what you think of Traditionalist concerns and sentiments? They’re just rooted in nostalgia? That they hold up nostalgia above the Gospel? Do you realize what that sounds like, aside from how wrong and oversimplified your belief is?

 

[stpurl]

“Destroying the cultural expressions of the spiritual call?”
You mean like destroying their traditions?

You mean that taking away their ‘nostalgia’ for their ‘cultural expressions’ would be a bad thing?

And their traditions and spirituality, while ‘spiritually relevant’ to them, do not have the completeness of Christianity. But you think it would be wrong and cruel, it seems, to deprive them of such things until they themselves are **ready to engage and move on to true Christian understanding, ** Correct?

How wrong then, it would be to deprive Christian people of their traditions and spirituality, which reflect the completeness and truth of Christianity, by claiming such things were ‘only’ due to ‘nostalgia’ or were somehow keeping them from fully living the faith or ‘not helpful’ in evangelization. . .

 

[Emeraldlady]

“Destroying the cultural expressions of the spiritual call?”
You mean like destroying their traditions?

These people were invited to share their understanding and means of acknowledging the gift of nature, a thing that we share in common as a ‘gift’ from the divine.

" The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men." - Nostra Aetate

We have to be prudent not to destroy what is actually truth and movement in the Holy Spirit, when we are evangelising to others. That would be like the aggressive, superior Pharisees.

You mean that taking away their ‘nostalgia’ for their ‘cultural expressions’ would be a bad thing?

The point of dialogue is to distinguish what is actually truth and what is now dead in the light of Christ. One of the most humbling things about the whole episode is despite the gleeful, gloating and public mockery employed by that misguided convert, the Amazonians did not retaliate in kind. It should shame and humiliate us that we don’t drive this crass arrogance out of our Church.

And their traditions and spirituality, while ‘spiritually relevant’ to them, do not have the completeness of Christianity. But you think it would be wrong and cruel, it seems, to deprive them of such things until they themselves are **ready to engage and move on to true Christian understanding, ** Correct?

Sounds like you want to desperately construct and elaborate strawman. Conversion is a process including witness and dialogue. To skulk into that process, steal a symbol and throw it away and then gloat brazenly to the world about how Jesus like you are… argh… it’s shameful and as foreign to the Catholicism I know as can be.

How wrong then, it would be to deprive Christian people of their traditions and spirituality, which reflect the completeness and truth of Christianity, by claiming such things were ‘only’ due to ‘nostalgia’ or were somehow keeping them from fully living the faith or ‘not helpful’ in evangelization. . .

The Church is familiar with recognising the spirits. The nostalgia you speak of is not one of faith, hope and love but one of brazen destruction, gloating, endless griping, sniping, criticising and condemning even the Pope himself. The ‘spirits’ don’t have the ring of the Holy Spirit in any way shape or form to me.

 

[stpurl]

The Church is familiar with recognising the spirits. The nostalgia you speak of is not one of faith, hope and love but one of brazen destruction, gloating, endless griping, sniping, criticising and condemning even the Pope himself. The ‘spirits’ don’t have the ring of the Holy Spirit in any way shape or form to me.

To you.

Apparently you believe that in my choosing to speak of traditions as good things that I am ‘supporting’ the destruction of these idols and that therefore ‘my’ traditions and nostalgia must be 'brazen destruction, gloating, griping, sniping, criticizing and ‘condemning the Pope himself’.

I find that view utterly abhorent, judgmental, and unChristian, not to mention false.