The origin of the two and ten horned beast.

[Special_Ed]

The origin of the two and ten horned beast
Protestant’s teach that these beast will come from what they called the revived (or revised) Roman Empire. Protestant’s actually believe that in the last day’s, Papal Rome will unite the world’s religions into a new age occultish type of religion. They call this unified end time religion the apostate church and believe it is symbolized by the harlot that rides the ten horned beast.

The Revived Roman empire developed from the stigma Rome acquired because of the crucifixion of Christ, the destruction of the temple, and years of persecution commited by Rome centuries ago. Papal Rome has yet to be forgiven by many Protestant churches who to this day are still prejudice toward Catholic’s.

There is much said about the fourth kingdom. And everything that is symbolically said about any of these kingdoms should reflect just what that kingdom is or was like.

Who is the kingdom inferior to Babylon?
I discussed this with Philip Goodman who has a television program on Prophecy called “Thy Kingdom Come”. This is what he said concerning this.
*

Because of this, many interpreters began with the conclusion that beast would certainly originate from Rome and formed their conclusions around those scriptures.

Daniel 2 is important in determining from where these beast would come. It describes a succession of kingdoms. The fourth kingdom is the final one from which would emege the future kingdom that would produce the “beast”. The stone that destroys the image is symbolic of Christ’s return that destroys this kingdom and sets up His millenial Kingdom. I agree with them that the fourth and final kingdom is where these beast come from. This vision must correctly interpreted to determine just who the fourth kingdom is. And just as important, who the “inferior kingdom” is.

This is the sequence of kingdoms taught be the Protestant’s.

1. Babylon. Head of Gold
2. Medo-Persia. Arms of silver
3. Grecian. Thighs of brass
4. Rome. Iron and clay

The sequence of kingdoms that I believe is correct should be interpreted as follows.

1. Babylonian. 2. Mede’s. 3. Persian’s. 4. Greek’s.

The Protestant’s use Daniel 2 to support the RRE. (revived Roman empire)

This is where Nebuchadnezzar “dreamed dreams”.
So he called in his magicians, astrologers and sorcerers. He not only wanted the interpretation of the dream, but wanted them to tell him the dream itself. He said that he forgot it. If they were not able to tell him the dream they would be cut to pieces and their houses would become a dunghill.
Then he said,
“But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.”

Daniel asked him for a little time and then returned and said to the king…
Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness [was] excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof [was] terrible.
This image’s head [was] of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
ie. Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian empire.

V.39 **And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. **
The second kingdom is said to be inferior to the Babylonian Empire and is the only thing said about the second kingdom. Protestant bible scholars teach this second kingdom is the combined kingdoms of the Mede’s and Persian’s. I believe it represents the much smaller kingdom of the Mede’s.
and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

 

[Special_Ed]

Protestant’s believe the kingdom of brass is the Grecian Empire of Alexander the Great. I believe it is the Persian empire. This is also a good example of how the word all and earth are often mistranslated. Neither the Persian’s or the Greeks ruled over all the earth.

The fourth kingdom below is what bible scholars have labeled as the “Roman Empire” which gets destroyed at the end by the age by the stone not carved out by hands, and where the revived Roman Empire theory developed.

There is much said about the fourth kingdom. And everything that is symbolically said about any of these kingdoms should reflect just what that kingdom is or was like.
Who is the kingdom inferior to Babylon?
I discussed this with Philip Goodman who has a television program on Prophecy called “Thy Kingdom Come”. This is what he said concerning this.

"Of course, that is like saying David was inferior to Goliath because Goliath was “three times the size” of David. Size has little to do with it.
Now, regarding the “inferior kingdom” of Daniel 2—Persia most certainly was an inferior kingdom to its predecessor kingdom, Babylon. History records its inferiority clearly. It borrowed much of its cultural “richness” from the Babylonians. Read history.

[Persian] civilization is often criticized for the extent to which it drew on the cultural traditions of others. Atlas Of The Ancient World, 576/63, chapter on “Persia”
Chaldeans [Babylon] had passed on to the Persians large accumulations of data on medicine, disease, drugs, grammar, law, etc".

The word inferior in Daniel 2:39 is #0772 which means earth, world, ground. So if land is implied and the Persian empire was three times the size as the Babylonian’s, that alone rules out the Medo-Persian empire as the inferior kingdom.

One could say that almost all cultures have borrowed some form of cultural and religious traditions in their societies. (as Rome did) What is it about borrowed or handed down traditions that makes a kingdom “inferior” when the word means “land”. Simply because things are passed from one culture to another doesn’t make them inferior anyway. It’s a fact of life in society in a world of different cultures. And that would actually make the United States the most “inferior” country in the world.

The word inferior in both Greek and Hebrew (Aramaic) always implies lower, below, less than. The Median empire was not only shortlived but it was also much smaller. I don’t understand how anyone can concluded that this inferior kingdom is the Persian Empire.

Daniel 2 is the only place the word inferior is used in the OT.
Strongs #2274 is the only Greek word for inferior and it’s only used in 2Cr 12:13.

1. to make less, inferior, to overcome
   a) to be made inferior
   The only Hebrew word for inferior is Strongs #5307
   to fall, lie, be cast down, fail
   to fall short,
   be inferior to

In every case, the word inferior implies less than, smaller, etc.
It’s only logical to me to conclude that the word ara (earth) is used as inferior because the word kingdom in 2:39 is Strong’s #4437. It not only means a kingdom but a realm of territory.
Since obtaining “territory” is one of the main objectives of war, and since the word inferior/land is the only word used to describe that kingdom, my logical conclusion is that it is a kingdom that is less than, lower, (smaller), or inferior…just as all the words describe.

It doesn’t take a bible scholar to get the proper understanding of Daniel 2… Christians simply cannot believe that such an overwhelming majority of bible prophecy teachers/scholars could be wrong on this and other issues of prophecy. I often see long explanations that take several twist and turns and page upon page to support this theory when it is actually a simple issue to understand.

Because the Persian’s imported much of their customs and traditions etc. is irrelevant, unrelated, and meaningless to inferiority and to the correct translation of this verse. Neither of the words for inferior imply anything about culture or customs etc.

The Median empire was “land inferior” in size compared to the Babylonian empire, and I believe it is the “inferior kingdom”. It existed for about 50 years. In Isaiah 13, God say’s He would stir up the Mede’s against Babylon. (not the Persians) And Daniel 5 quotes Darius the Mede as the one who “took” Babylon.
Daniel, Isaiah’s, and Jeremiah’s prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31
“And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old.”

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon

 

[Special_Ed]

Sadly enough, there are several interpretations by bible scholars that atheist have used to debunk the bible and this is one of them.

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom.

I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:19-21
And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

If you put this scripture in motion the inferior kingdom is explained. The combined empires of the Medes and the Persian’s is described by the Ram, but, there is a reference to a sequence as to which kingdom or horn rose first and the size of that “kingdom”. Not only was one horn higher (larger) but it also emerged after the first smaller horn.

It’s clear in scripture that Darius the Mede invaded and conquered Babylon, and the Protestant’s believe Cyrus the Persian conquered Babylon. If they were to agree with Daniel 5:31 that the Mede’s took Babylon, that would blow the revived Roman empire theory right out of the water.

The Medes, who were superior warriors, only occupied Babylon for a few years before the Persian’s, who were already confederate with the Medes came in and combined their efforts under Cyrus into what became the Ram or the Persian empire.
It seems clear to me that the reason for all of these scriptures, ie. the inferior of Daniel 2, 5:31, and the horns of Daniel 8, is so that we have the proper understanding of this not so complex issue in prophecy. One that the Protestant’s have complicated into a fabricated mess only to identify Rome as the origin of the beast.

The bible is the historical authority on Darius since secular history has little to say about him and we shouldn’t neglect his inferior kingdom and what the Word of God says about him.
Iron and clay

The fourth kingdom, symbolized as toes mingled with “iron and clay” doesn’t come from Rome but from the Grecian Empire. That empire did not cover Rome or Europe and therefore is excluded as the origin of the beast. (antichrist and false prophet)

The word **mingled or mixed **used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is a Chaldean word meaning “arab”.

Daniel 2:41-43
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be **partly strong, and partly broken. **And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The ten toes mingled with iron and clay are a symbolic description of the final kingdom. Protestant’s would like you to believe these toes represent the European Union. Iron is somewhat strong but is somewhat brittle. Iron and clay do not mix and both are brittle. Arab /Muslim cultures are a mixture of many have had problems molding the different religious cultures. They have noy cleaved to one another whereas the EU has.

Consider what the Arab/Muslim world is like today and consider what the EU is like today. Who’s alliances are more brittleand who’s are more united? Europe’s, or the Arab/Muslim world. The EU has strong alliances and a cohesive lawful society. Iron and clay better represent the Ishmaelites (mixed with the seed of men) or today’s Arab/Muslim world. They are an almost lawless society and will produce the “lawless one”.

I believe the toes mingled with iron and clay symbolically represent the coming ten nation Islamic empire of the beast which will be a “united” Sunni and Shia Islamic world.

There is overwhelming evidence in scripture to question the revived Roman Empire. The man of sin cannot come from Rome or the EU because the fourth kingdom is not Rome but the Grecian Empire. And that empire did not cover Europe or Rome.

It is my belief, and the belief of many others, that the man of sin will be an Assyrian which is part of the Grecian empire. (Isaiah 10 14, and 30 all depict an Assyrian as the tool of God’s wrath in the last days.

 

[Special_Ed]

Last but not least,

The Protestant’s also quote Rev, 17:11 as proof that Rome is the beast.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This verse excludes Rome as the beast because Rome "was" in power at the time John wrote Revelation. John said the beast that was… **“is not”. **The beast did not exist at that time but Rome did!
The demonic duo will come from Israel’s longtime enemy. The Arab’s and Muslim’s.

 

[Pacbox]

Actually, MOST Protestants DO NOT believe this. It is only those that ascribe to a dispensationalist/rapture combination (or separate) that believe this. And those are few. Now, individual non-Catholic Christians believe all sorts of things about the passages concerning the beasts in Daniel and Revelation and I have neither the inclination nor the time to ask every single one of them.

As for the EU being the ten toes (heard that one in relation to rapture/dispensationalism) and Islam/Arab people (which incidentally are a religion and an ethnic group respectively and not two separate peoples as you have posed them) as the source of the Anti-Christ/demon, is interpreting something that is not there. You’ve fallen into the same trap as the rapture/dispensationalists.

We don’t know who or when the Anti-Christ will appear.

 

[ryanoneil]

Commenting on Dan 2:40-43, St Jerome, who lived and wrote during the time of the Roman Empire, wrote “Just as there was at the first nothing stronger and hardier that the Roman realm, so also in these last days, there is nothing more feeble, since we require the assistance of barbarian tribes” (CID)

During the fourth Roman empire, “A stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet . . . so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth” (2:34-35). Daniel interprets this to mean that while the fourth Roman kingdom is still in existence, “the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed . . . It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever” (2:44)

There you have it. During the fourth kingdom (the Roman Empire), the Messianic Kingdom will be established. The uncut stone symbolizes Christ at His first advent. His reign established through His Passion supersedes all the kingdoms of men. From this point in history, God’s Kingdom is predicted to endure forever. The stone which grows into a mountain is Christ and His Kingdom includes the Church He established.

(There is no 2,000 year delay inbetween iron legs and iron-and-clay feet.) Daniel is clear in his interpretation of the dream that these two parts are one and the same kingdom. “There shall be a fourth kingdom. . . It shall be a divided kingdom” (2:40-41). Time is of paramount importance to Daniel. The events he describes will take about six hundred years to unfold. Any other time gap distorts God’s revelation.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[byers]

There are excellent explanations from the Catholic perspective written in 2003 by the biblical scholar and convert David Currie to the questions you have posed. Many of these things, especially in Daniel, have been misinterpreted and misunderstood purposely to deny that the Catholic church was instituted by Christ and fulfilled these verses. Check out at amazon or any good catholic book store. Especially read the chapters on Revelation and Daniel.

Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind

 

[ryanoneil]

There are excellent explanations from the Catholic perspective written in 2003 by the biblical scholar and convert David Currie to the questions you have posed. Many of these things, especially in Daniel, have been misinterpreted and misunderstood purposely to deny that the Catholic church was instituted by Christ and fulfilled these verses. Check out at amazon or any good catholic book store. Especially read the chapters on Revelation and Daniel.

Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind

That is where I get my info!

 

[ryanoneil]

Last but not least,

The Protestant’s also quote Rev, 17:11 as proof that Rome is the beast.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This verse excludes Rome as the beast because Rome "was" in power at the time John wrote Revelation. John said the beast that was… **“is not”. **The beast did not exist at that time but Rome did!
The demonic duo will come from Israel’s longtime enemy. The Arab’s and Muslim’s.

The Beast was Rome. 1st Century Rome!

Abaddon was General Titus, the son of Vespasian. This would explain how he “belongs to the seven[th]”- by blood relation. How is it that Titus “was and is not” (17:11)? As of 68 A.D., Titus had been in Judea with his father for the war in 67 and 68 A.D. He was there twice. But when Nero committed suicide, Vespasian sent Titus to Rome. This would explain the phrase “is not.” At this time, General Titus is not in Judea. But Titus would return, to the consternation of Jerusalem. Considering his role in the winepress, is it any wonder that he would “go to perdition”?

We see one symbol, the sea-beast, serving as a sign for more than one reality. At times the beast is most clearly Nero; here it is most evidently Titus. In either case, however, the individual represents the Roman Empire, which is the primary reality that the beast symbolizes.

As far as the EU being the ten kings, there where fifteen nations in the EU as far as I remember. I hate to say it but rapturist can’t accept the detailed fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies because they would have to take Catholic Church seriously.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Special_Ed]

Actually, MOST Protestants DO NOT believe this. It is only those that ascribe to a dispensationalist/rapture combination (or separate) that believe this. And those are few.

I can tell you that my experience with nearly all Protestant and Pentacostal denominations that hold to either the futurist, preterist, or historical view all believe that Rome is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2. The futurist believe it also represents the origin of the end time beast. Very few Protestant denominations take the Historical or preterist view. In today’s day and age, many churches kind of leave it up to the individual to sort these things out since there are so many way’s to go.

The overwhelming majority of them are of the futurist view, which is what I address. They teach the end will come at the hands of a global dictator and a world religion united under Rome. Those views have begun to changed since the emergence of radical Islam who I believe is the religion of the beast.

The big problem I see with many christians who try to understand the things of the end is that they simply accept what they are taught by prophecy teachers and televangelist. And they don’t do their own homework or translate the scriptures in their original languages.

Now, individual non-Catholic Christians believe all sorts of things about the passages concerning the beasts in Daniel and Revelation and I have neither the inclination nor the time to ask every single one of them.

As for the EU being the ten toes (heard that one in relation to rapture/dispensationalism) and Islam/Arab people (which incidentally are a religion and an ethnic group respectively and not two separate peoples as you have posed them) as the source of the Anti-Christ/demon, is interpreting something that is not there.

.
They actually are more than two groups. Nearly all Arab, Asian Arab, and non Arab peoples of the Middle East are a mixture of Ishmaelites and Edomites and Jacob etc. They are a people of many tribes. I’m pretty sure Ishmael is quoted as a forefather of many tribes who actually now populate the Middle East.

Islam is also a divided to the point to where they think nothing of killing one another. The two major Islamic sects are more divided than you think. One of the biggest arguments is which sect will welcome the man of sin…I mean the Mahdi, when he returns.

We don’t know who or when the Anti-Christ will appear.

Maybe we should know more than what you think!

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

Commenting on Dan 2:40-43, St Jerome, who lived and wrote during the time of the Roman Empire, wrote “Just as there was at the first nothing stronger and hardier that the Roman realm, so also in these last days, there is nothing more feeble, since we require the assistance of barbarian tribes” (CID)

During the fourth Roman empire, “A stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet . . . so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth” (2:34-35). Daniel interprets this to mean that while the fourth Roman kingdom is still in existence, “the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed . . . It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever” (2:44)

There you have it. During the fourth kingdom (the Roman Empire), the Messianic Kingdom will be established. The uncut stone symbolizes Christ at His first advent. His reign established through His Passion supersedes all the kingdoms of men. From this point in history, God’s Kingdom is predicted to endure forever. The stone which grows into a mountain is Christ and His Kingdom includes the Church He established.

That’s what the Jews thought too. That their Redeemer would come and take vengence against Rome and relieve the Jewish nation from oppression. Christ did not come to destroy kingdoms during His first advent and God did not set up His kingdom which shall never be destroyed at Christ first advent. The age of grace is not the kingdom which shall never be destroyed. The Messianic kingdom is set up at His second advent when the age of grace is over.

If you want, I can prove to you that the fourth Roman kingdom is no longer in existence when I have more time.

 

[ryanoneil]

That’s what the Jews thought too. That their Redeemer would come and take vengence against Rome and relieve the Jewish nation from oppression. Christ did not come to destroy kingdoms during His first advent and God did not set up His kingdom which shall never be destroyed at Christ first advent. The age of grace is not the kingdom which shall never be destroyed. The Messianic kingdom is set up at His second advent when the age of grace is over.

If you want, I can prove to you that the fourth Roman kingdom is no longer in existence when I have more time.

I disagree but would like to hear your take on the first point. And I agree with your second point. Rome was defeated in 476 A.D.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Special_Ed]

The Beast was Rome. 1st Century Rome!

Abaddon was General Titus, the son of Vespasian. This would explain how he “belongs to the seven[th]”- by blood relation. How is it that Titus “was and is not” (17:11)? As of 68 A.D., Titus had been in Judea with his father for the war in 67 and 68 A.D. He was there twice. But when Nero committed suicide, Vespasian sent Titus to Rome. This would explain the phrase “is not.” At this time, General Titus is not in Judea. But Titus would return, to the consternation of Jerusalem. Considering his role in the winepress, is it any wonder that he would “go to perdition”?

We see one symbol, the sea-beast, serving as a sign for more than one reality. At times the beast is most clearly Nero; here it is most evidently Titus. In either case, however, the individual represents the Roman Empire, which is the primary reality that the beast symbolizes.

As far as the EU being the ten kings, there where fifteen nations in the EU as far as I remember. I hate to say it but rapturist can’t accept the detailed fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies because they would have to take Catholic Church seriously.

The beast cannot be Rome. John said the beast was, (past) And is not, (present) and yet is for it shall go into perdition and ascend from the bottomless pit. My point is that Rome was in power when John wrote this. He said the beast, **“is not”. **

And you still neglected to explain how you arrived at the conclusion that the second kingdom, or Persian empire, was inferior to Babylon,
and why the word mixed that describes the fourth kingdom of iron and clay means “arab”! (who you say is Rome)

There’s no proof that Nero is the beast because that actually contradicts other verses about the beast that I will address at some time when I have more time.

Quite honestly I cannot see how anyone can view Revelation 17 as historical.

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

There are excellent explanations from the Catholic perspective written in 2003 by the biblical scholar and convert David Currie to the questions you have posed. Many of these things, especially in Daniel, have been misinterpreted and misunderstood purposely to deny that the Catholic church was instituted by Christ and fulfilled these verses. Check out at amazon or any good catholic book store. Especially read the chapters on Revelation and Daniel.

Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind

Jesus gave us signs that would occur and things to observe just prior to His return which He said would be “imediately after the tribulation” in Mathew 24. No where in the Word does Jesus say that He would return “before” the tribulation.

“And immediately **after the tribulation **of those days…he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities”(Matthew 24:29-31).

Now we all know that the rapture will happen at the sound of a trumpet. (I Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:52; Rev. 10:7),

1 Cor 15, 52 tells us at what trumpet.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And that His angels would do the gathering, (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14),

And that it would occur in the sky. (I Thess. 4:17),

The word **elect **in Mt. 24 means the same thing as it does in the following scriptures. (pretribulationist would tell you different)

Matthew 20:16 John 13:18, 15:16 Acts 15:22, 15:25 Romans 8:33 16:13 1 Corinthians 1:27-28 Ephesians 1:4 Colossians 3:12 James 2:5 2 Timothy 2:10 Titus 1:1 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13 Revelation 17:14.

Most pretribbers are able to provide me with an extensive explanation why the word elect in Mt. 24 would mean something else like “non-christian Jews”.

The “gathering” that happens immediatly after the tribulation, otherwise known as the “post trib rapture” in Mt. 24:29-30,
in verse 36 Jesus say’s, “no one knows the day or hour”.
Now obviously He is refering to the rapture He mentioned in verse 29-30 which is His return and gathering at Armegeddon. Pretribbers say the context changes at verse 36 where it refers to the pretrib return! But yet, the only mention of a return in the entire chapter is where Jesus say’s a gathering occurs “after the tribulation”!

No pretribulationist denies that Christ will return after “Jacob’s trouble” at Armegeddon. What they have to prove even more than a rapture is that Christ said or the bible say’s He would return “before” tribulation. And they can’t. There is not one verse that indicates that, just as there is not one verse of prophecy that even implies that Rome would have anything to do with the prophecies of the last days.

A pretribulationist has a delima. When one believes he will be exempt from tribulation, that means that when the first day of tribulation arrives and pretrib christians are still here when they expect not to be, will they be in denial we are in Jacob’s trouble or "tribulation?

If there is a pretrib rapture, the most pretribbers can say to me is “I told you so”. But, if the is no pre-trib rapture, they have to admit a colossal blunder. My fear is that most will remain in denial because it’s going to be very difficult for promminent prophecy teachers/televangelist to admit they’ve made mistakes and have been misleading people.

That’s the way I see it.

SE

 

[ryanoneil]

First let me say that the prophecies of the book of Revelation have been fulfilled up to 20:2. With that said, history is often prophecy in apocolyptic writing. In other words, the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. can be a prophecy of a final fulfillment when Christ returns. Similar to the sacrifices of the Old Covenant forshadowing the one sacrifice of Christ. The Hebrews’ forty years in the desrt prefiguring the forty days of Jesus’ being tempted in the desert and Jonah as a type for Jesus death and resurrection.

So although 99% of all biblical prophecy has been fulilled already, past events themselves can and do point to the final fulfillment of history when Christ returns. For example

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.

Antichrists have come and will continue to come. Each of them foreshadows the one, final antichrist who will embody and perfect all of their evils. So let me respond to a few of your points in my next post Special Ed.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

The beast cannot be Rome. John said the beast was, (past) And is not, (present) and yet is for it shall go into perdition and ascend from the bottomless pit. My point is that Rome was in power when John wrote this. He said the beast, **“is not”. **

There’s no proof that Nero is the beast because that actually contradicts other verses about the beast that I will address at some time when I have more time.

Quite honestly I cannot see how anyone can view Revelation 17 as historical.

The seven heads of (17:9) symbolize the seven hills of Jerusalem, but also the seven kings who ruled the beast. The "five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, (17:10) are the Julio-Claudio lineage of Roman emperors. Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius I are the five who have fallen. Nero is the sixth who “is” and Vespasian is the seventh “the other [king who] has not yet come.”

So when St John wrote Revelation, Nero (emperor 6) was Caesar. John predicted Vespasians reign before it was established. Vespasian came to attack Jerusalem, but “when he comes he must remain only a little while.” He led three campaigns against the Jews. The first in 67 A.D., the second in 68 A.D. and then Nero died. Vespasian left and went to Alexandria to intercept the grain shipments headed to Rome. He returned for a third short camaign in midsummer 69 A.D. St. John predicted Vespasian leaving Judea the second time after “a little while,” when he returned to Rome to claim the throne.

As I mentioned Titus was with his father Vespasian in 67 and 68. His blood relation explains How Titus "belongs to the seven[th]. And I already spoke about how Titus “was and is not” It all fits like a glove.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Pacbox]

I can tell you that ***my experience ***with nearly all Protestant and Pentacostal denominations that hold to either the futurist, preterist, or historical view all believe that Rome is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2. The futurist believe it also represents the origin of the end time beast. Very few Protestant denominations take the Historical or preterist view. In today’s day and age, many churches kind of leave it up to the individual to sort these things out since there are so many way’s to go.

Your experience should count as all the basis for holding a specific view and interpretation of eschatology? The only group I have come in contact with that took Daniel and Revelation along with Dispensationalism/Rapturist theology is Calvary Chapel. Again, falling into that same trap as the rapturists.

The overwhelming majority of them are of the futurist view, which is what I address. They teach the end will come at the hands of a global dictator and a world religion united under Rome. Those views have begun to changed since the emergence of radical Islam who*** I believe*** is the religion of the beast.

Actually, very few take this stand. As I said in my previous post, non-Catholic Christians take a variety of views on Daniel and Revelation. Some have the same views as the Catholic Church. But since I have yet to ask ALL non-Catholic Christians the only thing I know for certain is that there are multiple views and multiple interpretations and even varying levels of acceptance of these views.

The big problem I see with many christians who try to understand the things of the end is that they simply accept what they are taught by prophecy teachers and televangelist. And they don’t do their own homework or translate the scriptures in their original languages.

The italicized line I agree with. Now this doesn’t mean these people are unintelligent or lack something. It means they trust their pastors which last time I checked wasn’t a bad thing. Those that seek to lead people astray I have huge problems with and those that preach their own interpretation of the end times are the ones I have the biggest issue with.

They actually are more than two groups. Nearly all Arab, Asian Arab, and non Arab peoples of the Middle East are a mixture of Ishmaelites and Edomites and Jacob etc. They are a people of many tribes. I’m pretty sure Ishmael is quoted as a forefather of many tribes who actually now populate the Middle East.

Someone who is Arab is a speaker of Arabic. Asia is a specific geographical area of the world including as far as Afghanistan to China to Indonesia to Japan. Huge area. MANY different cultures and languages and ethnicities. Afghanistan along has several ethnic groups and many of those don’t get along. Some down right hate each other. Iraq has the Kurds which historically has been a persecuted group. The Middle East and her peoples are wide and varied and lumping them together is highly offense to them and to me. As a cultural anthropologist by training and trade, you’re treatment of the people in the Middle East and followers of Islam is appalling in its lies and lack of research. There are Arabs who are Muslim but not all Muslims are Arab. Indonesia has the largest population of Muslims in the world and they are nowhere near the Middle East nor are the people there Arabs.

Islam is also a divided to the point to where they think nothing of killing one another. The two major Islamic sects are more divided than you think. One of the biggest arguments is which sect will welcome the man of sin…I mean the Mahdi, when he returns.

I am well aware of the division of the Sunnis and the Shia and the history of Islam. And I know about the Twelvers and Seveners and the Sufis and Ahmadis (paarsurrey a member of this forum could explain this group better than I since he/she is an Ahmadi). And that’s just a few. In Afghanistan, Sunnis forced Shia to convert to their form of Islam because they saw Shia Islam as an abomination and from the devil. In Islam, the Mahdi is their idea of the Messiah.

Maybe we should know more than what you think!
SE

Maybe we should listen to Jesus?

 

[inthecloud]

Also remember that Protestants have books in the Bible missing.
Many modern scholars believe that some of the prophecies in Daniel were fullfilled in the times of the Maccabees.
I fact, that Daniel was written in the time of the Maccabes.
That was a big issue between the Esenes and the Pharisees.
Why Daniel in the Bible and not Maccabes? One of the beasts was king Antioch.
And John in Revelations was taking about the Roman Empire and the triumph of Christianity over the Roman Empire.That already happened.

 

[ryanoneil]

And you still neglected to explain how you arrived at the conclusion that the second kingdom, or Persian empire, was inferior to Babylon,
and why the word mixed that describes the fourth kingdom of iron and clay means “arab”! (who you say is Rome)

SE

It is important to understand the past in order to understand the future. I have been speaking of past fulfilled prophecy and not future prophecy which I won’t attempt to do.

Gold head of Babylon
604 bc Daniel deported to Babylon

Silver chest of Medo-Persia
539 bc Babylon conquered by Medo-Persia
457 bc Persian decree to rebuild Jerusalem
444 bc Nehemiah begins rebuilding

Bronze stomach and thighs of Greece
167 bc Greek Antiochus desecrates Temple

Iron and clay legs and feet
142 bc Jews win independence
54 bc Roman Ponpey sacks Temple
10 bc Herod’s Temple completed
4 bc Incarnation of Christ

The stone
4 bc Incarnation of Christ
30 ad Passion of Christ

Stone strikes the statue and destory it
64 ad Nero torches Rome
67-70 ad Titus destroys Temple
136 ad Jerusalem destroyed

Stone grows into a world wide mountain
136 ad thru 476 ad Rome defeated

This is established Historical fact and it follows the timeline Daniel set up. I’ll leave future speculation of the earthly players, involved in the Apocolypse, up to others.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[AaronsStaff]

Also remember that Protestants have books in the Bible missing.
Many modern scholars believe that some of the prophecies in Daniel were fullfilled in the times of the Maccabees.
I fact, that Daniel was written in the time of the Maccabes.
That was a big issue between the Esenes and the Pharisees.
Why Daniel in the Bible and not Maccabes? One of the beasts was king Antioch.
And John in Revelations was taking about the Roman Empire and the triumph of Christianity over the Roman Empire.That already happened.

Also remember that protestants are missing the 13th Chapter of Daniel.