The origin of the two and ten horned beast.

[Volodymyr_988]

I disagree but would like to hear your take on the first point. And I agree with your second point. Rome was defeated in 476 A.D.

Peace,

Ryan

I disagree, Rome was defeated in 1453 with the fall of the Blessed Emperor Constantine XI Paleologus. Who died in Communion with the Pope.

 

[AaronsStaff]

I disagree, Rome was defeated in 1453 with the fall of the Blessed Emperor Constantine XI Paleologus. Who died in Communion with the Pope.

People generally associate the fall of Rome with the fall of the Western Empire, if your talking about the city, then yes, it would be 476.

 

[ryanoneil]

I disagree, Rome was defeated in 1453 with the fall of the Blessed Emperor Constantine XI Paleologus. Who died in Communion with the Pope.

People generally associate the fall of Rome with the fall of the Western Empire, if your talking about the city, then yes, it would be 476.

Fair enough.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[paarsurrey]

We don’t know who or when the Anti-Christ will appear.

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim. We believe that the PromisedMessiah (1835-1908) has come which is , in our opinion the **Second Coming of Jesus **as being awaited by the Muslims and Christians both.

The PromisedMessiah1838-1908 has identified the anti-Christ, for more information about the **Ahmadia View on Anti-Christ **kinly access if you like:
alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_6_section_2.html

The Holy Prophet’ssa elaboration of the anti-Christ and the unique donkey he would ride must have seemed extremely odd to the people of his time. It had to appear odd because despite the fact that he continually refers to that mount as a donkey, none of the known characteristics of a donkey are ascribed to that oddity. However all the modern modes of transport answer to this description perfectly.

They have one common feature about them; they are all propelled by combustion engines drawing their energy from fire. Even the external combustion engines like those of locomotives driven by steam are dependant on fire. This is the sharp separating line between the earlier modes of animal transport and the revolutionary new modes of transport in the age of the anti-Christ which would reveal him to be not an animal but an inanimate object. We refer to him as ‘he’ only because in the prophecy he is literally spoken of as an animal. In fact he could be identified by this distinctive mark alone. Recognize the donkey of the anti-Christ and you will recognize in him the modern modes of transport. Fail to recognize him if you so choose and travel back to the age of donkeys.

Some other novel features of this symbolic donkey of the anti-Christ are described in great detail in various books of traditions. The following is a composite presentation of the information derived from them:

Like his donkey the anti-Christ himself would be so massive and gigantic that a monster like unto him has not even been heard of in the most bizarre tales of fantasy. He would be so tall that his head would seem to disappear beyond the clouds. He will be so immensely powerful that he would conquer the whole world single-handedly.

Despite all these physical advantages the one blemish that he would be blighted with would be the total loss of one eye, the right eye for that matter.

This donkey would not merely be a personal mount of the anti-Christ, but would also be made freely available as a means of public transport. People will climb into his belly from the openings on his side provided specifically for this purpose.

The belly will be well lighted within and equipped with comfortable seats.

continued in next post

 

[paarsurrey]

We don’t know who or when the Anti-Christ will appear.

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim. We believe that the PromisedMessiah (1835-1908) has come which is , in our opinion the **Second Coming of Jesus **as being awaited by the Muslims and Christians both.

The PromisedMessiah1838-1908 has identified the anti-Christ, for more information about the **Ahmadia View on Anti-Christ **kinly access if you like:
alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_6_section_2.html

The Holy Prophet’ssa elaboration of the anti-Christ and the unique donkey he would ride must have seemed extremely odd to the people of his time. It had to appear odd because despite the fact that he continually refers to that mount as a donkey, none of the known characteristics of a donkey are ascribed to that oddity. However all the modern modes of transport answer to this description perfectly.

They have one common feature about them; they are all propelled by combustion engines drawing their energy from fire. Even the external combustion engines like those of locomotives driven by steam are dependant on fire. This is the sharp separating line between the earlier modes of animal transport and the revolutionary new modes of transport in the age of the anti-Christ which would reveal him to be not an animal but an inanimate object. We refer to him as ‘he’ only because in the prophecy he is literally spoken of as an animal. In fact he could be identified by this distinctive mark alone. Recognize the donkey of the anti-Christ and you will recognize in him the modern modes of transport. Fail to recognize him if you so choose and travel back to the age of donkeys.

Some other novel features of this symbolic donkey of the anti-Christ are described in great detail in various books of traditions. The following is a composite presentation of the information derived from them:

Like his donkey the anti-Christ himself would be so massive and gigantic that a monster like unto him has not even been heard of in the most bizarre tales of fantasy. He would be so tall that his head would seem to disappear beyond the clouds. He will be so immensely powerful that he would conquer the whole world single-handedly.

Despite all these physical advantages the one blemish that he would be blighted with would be the total loss of one eye, the right eye for that matter.

This donkey would not merely be a personal mount of the anti-Christ, but would also be made freely available as a means of public transport. People will climb into his belly from the openings on his side provided specifically for this purpose.

The belly will be well lighted within and equipped with comfortable seats.

Continued in the next post

 

[paarsurrey]

(Continued from the previous post)

The donkey would move at exceptionally fast speeds covering long distances in a matter of days or hours which ordinary animal mounts take months to cover.

He would have regular stoppages on its way. At every stoppage the public would be invited to come and be seated before he resumes his journey and every departure would be loudly announced. Thus the metaphorical donkey would continuously travel from place to place providing people with a fast, convenient and comfortable means of transport.

The passengers travelling in the belly would in no way be scorched by the fire he had eaten indicating that the seating compartment in his belly would be fully insulated from the fire chamber.

This donkey will also be able to travel by sea and move from continent to continent riding the ocean waves.

During his journey by sea he would somehow swell to a much larger size. Thus he will be able to transport mountains of food upon his back across the oceans. Many a time he will be employed to deliver these enormous food supplies to such poor nations as abjectly bow to the will of the anti-Christ. The transportation of mountain-loads of food is a figurative expression reminiscent of the one contained in another previously quoted verse which predicted such times when mountains will be made to move.

The amazing donkey would also know how to fly because some of his gigantic leaps are described to cover distances between East and West. It is said that one foot of the beast will be in the East and the other in the West. This is indicative of the size of his leap meaning that he would take off from one continent and land in another.

In the air he will move above the level of the clouds.
On his forehead he would carry the moon. Apparently the moon refers to the headlights which most modern vehicles are equipped with.

After reading this vivid description of the donkey of the anti-Christ which he would use for his world conquest, we wonder if the reader really needs further assistance to recognize him.

Obviously such great Christian powers are mentioned under the title Dajjal ( or Anti-Christ) as were destined one day to command the entire world. The fire-driven donkey which acquires the changeable roles of aeroplanes, ships or trains moving at exceptionally fast speeds was to play the most formative and crucial role in the conquest of the world by the Christian powers.
alislam.org/library/books…section_2.html

No disrespect is intended to anybody’s faith please. Peace

Thanks

 

[Special_Ed]

ryanoniel, you said,

First let me say that the prophecies of the book of Revelation have been fulfilled up to 20:2. With that said, history is often prophecy in apocolyptic writing. In other words, the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. can be a prophecy of a final fulfillment when Christ returns. Similar to the sacrifices of the Old Covenant forshadowing the one sacrifice of Christ. The Hebrews’ forty years in the desrt prefiguring the forty days of Jesus’ being tempted in the desert and Jonah as a type for Jesus death and resurrection.

I strongly disagree that Revelation has been fulfilled up to Chapter 20:2.

For one thing, John wrote Revelation in AD 90.

Second, I just cannot believe that all of the things written in the book up to chapter 20 took place during the time of Nero and the destruction of the temple, etc. That can easily be proven wrong.

Third. I cannot believe that God would leave out the time of the end just before Christ returns with power and glory. If God found it necessary to prophesy the humble first advent of Christ, I believe He would certainly make known **the end **to us when His Son returns to destroy the religion of the antichrist and the governments who do not accept him.

I could go on and on posting scripture and the reasons why most of Revelation (an unveiling) is not tet fulfilled.

Rev. 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Great day of His wrath has not yet come.

Revelation 7:1
*¶And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
This has yet to happen.

I believe the seals of Rev.6 have just begun to open. And none of the trumpets have yet sounded. You have to prove that the events of the seals, trumpets, and vials have already occured and I know that you can’t. How can you prove to me that the following has occured.

Rev.8:7 *¶The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 *And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 *And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 *And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 *And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 *And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 *And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev.9:18 18 *By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

 

[Special_Ed]

Has this happened?

Rev. 10:6-7 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery of God is not finished and the prophecies have not all passed.

In verse 11 of chapter 10 John wrote…
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And the two witnessess of Rev 11…who do you say they are and when did they come.

When did this happen?
Rev.11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As we speak, the kingdoms of this world are still under the prince and power of the air. Christ has not set up His kingdom yet. During Christ first advent Christ he did not destroy kingdoms but came in humility. His second advent is when His wrath is displayed in a variety of ways.

And one of my favorite verses.

Rev.11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev. 12:12 ¶Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

When and how did this happen.

Rev.13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Rev.14:7-8 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev.15:Revelation 15:1 ¶And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Can you tell me about these plagues that have already occured?
Rev.8: 8 ¶And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

You can go on believing that Revelation is a historical book and you have a lot of explaining to do to prove to me that it is by explaining how the verses I posted has already occured.

 

[Special_Ed]

It is important to understand the past in order to understand the future. I have been speaking of past fulfilled prophecy and not future prophecy which I won’t attempt to do.

Gold head of Babylon
604 bc Daniel deported to Babylon

Silver chest of Medo-Persia
539 bc Babylon conquered by Medo-Persia
457 bc Persian decree to rebuild Jerusalem
444 bc Nehemiah begins rebuilding

Bronze stomach and thighs of Greece
167 bc Greek Antiochus desecrates Temple

Iron and clay legs and feet
142 bc Jews win independence
54 bc Roman Ponpey sacks Temple
10 bc Herod’s Temple completed
4 bc Incarnation of Christ

The stone
4 bc Incarnation of Christ
30 ad Passion of Christ

Stone strikes the statue and destory it
64 ad Nero torches Rome
67-70 ad Titus destroys Temple
136 ad Jerusalem destroyed

Stone grows into a world wide mountain
136 ad thru 476 ad Rome defeated

This is established Historical fact and it follows the timeline Daniel set up. I’ll leave future speculation of the earthly players, involved in the Apocolypse, up to others.

Peace,

Ryan

Ok.

I will asked one more time. How can the Medo-Persian empire be the “inferior kingdom” when it was three times the size?

The Bible quotes Darius the Mede as the one who took Babylon. Not Cyrus the Persian.

Your contradicting the Word of God if you say otherwise.

Your analogy of the stone makes no sense to me.

The Stone is clearly figurative of Christ who is **not cut from human hands **who destroys kingdoms and who sets up His kingdom. which is what He does at Armegeddon!

You also neglected to give an answer why the word mixed means arab. You ascribe the iron and clay to Rome and the Jews?

These verses that describe the fourth kingdom are both historical and future.

SE

 

[Jaypeeto4]

It is not uncommon for Biblical symbols to have more than ONE application. The “Woman Clothed with the Sun” is three things:
Ancient covenant Israel, the Virgin Mary, and the Church,
for example.

As for the beasts of Revelation, the historic Catholic understanding is that this refers to the ancient Roman Empire which was persecuting Christians.
I don’t think that means that that is the ONLY application.

Personally, and I’m not dogmatic about this,
but I believe that the 10 horned wild beast is
the One World Government ruled by the Antichrist.
Why? Because 10 is a number which means perfection and completion or totality. It is ONE beast with 10 horns crowned with 10 diadems. I believe strongly that this refers to an
antiGod worldwide government.
For this reason, I am one who begs the Church to be very careful in urging the strengthening of such organizations as
the United Nations. The U.N. is well documented as pursuing an anti-God agenda as far as morals go, promoting abortion, homosexual lifestyle, etc, and proposing treaties on “children’s rights” which would effectively strip parents of their God-given parental rights. While the United Nations HAS done a lot of GOOD, these are very, very diabolical and wicked things that it is up to, and we must fight such things.
The story of God breaking the nations up into different language groups at Babel is very meaningful. God did it, scripture teaches, to keep UNregenerate mankind from coming together as one because humankind is SINFUL by our fallen nature, and our coming together as one (APART from covenant relationship with God thru Christ Jesus) will, always, result in horrific sinfulness.
A world government run by unbelievers is NOT in Christianity or Catholicism’s interests, you can bet on that.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[ryanoneil]

Ok.

I will asked one more time. How can the Medo-Persian empire be the “inferior kingdom” when it was three times the size?

The Bible quotes Darius the Mede as the one who took Babylon. Not Cyrus the Persian.

Your contradicting the Word of God if you say otherwise.

I don’t see the contradiction. The Median Empire was conquered before the fall of Babylon. And Gubaru is said to be Darius the Mede.

The last king of the Median Empire Astyages was dethroned in 550 BC when his troops mutinied and handed him over to Cyrus the Great.Then Cyrus led his armies to capture Ecbatana (the capitol) in 549 BC, effectively conquering the Median Empire. While Cyrus seems to have accepted the crown of Media, by 546 BC, he officially assumed the title of King of Persia instead.

On October 12, 539 BC (Julian calendar; October 7 by the Gregorian calendar), Gubaru’s (Darius the Mede) troops along with the army of Cyrus entered Babylon. On October 29, Cyrus himself entered the city of Babylon and arrested Nabonidus. He then assumed the titles of “king of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four sides of the world.” Cyrus then sent his best wishes to the residents living there. His governor, Gubaru, then installed leaders to govern over all Babylon.”

Your analogy of the stone makes no sense to me.

The Stone is clearly figurative of Christ who is **not cut from human hands **who destroys kingdoms and who sets up His kingdom. which is what He does at Armegeddon!

All of this Scripture proves that Christ’s Kingdom is already set up.
Matt. 16:19, Matt. 13:24-52, Matt. 25:1-2, Matt 12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 11:20; 17:21

I especially like Luke 9:27 *Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." * Is Jesus lying here?

What about 1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. What has Christ been reigning over all this time?

You also neglected to give an answer why the word mixed means arab.

You ascribe the iron and clay to Rome and the Jews?

I’ve never claimed the word mixed means arab. The burden of proof is yours.

The Catholic Church, the early church fathers, and most all Christians have always considered the Legs and Feet to be Rome.

These verses that describe the fourth kingdom are both historical and future.

Are you saying that Daniel was talking about Jesus second coming with out mentioning His first coming? Don’t we agree the stone is Christ?

Please believe that I’m not trying to be a thorn in your side. I’m just trying to tell the truth. I’d be happy to continue the conversation and will try to respond to your other post.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Isaiah 7:14 *Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. *

Isaiah himself writes that this son was born (8:3-4) but the leaders of the people of God taught that the events still had another future fulfillment. Someday another Son would come who would signal the availability of a more universal salvation for a new Israel, the Israel of God. We see the fulfillment in Mat 1:23.

So we can observe that when a prophecy is fulfilled, that fulfilling event may itself become a prophecy, pointing to another, more final and complete fulfillment. So when it come to Revelation, why is it so hard to believe that most of it has been fulfilled and still points to a future fulfillment? Many early church fathers believed this. I think this is encouraging instead of troubling. It shows that Jesus lives up to His promises.

I cannot believe that God would leave out the time of the end just before Christ returns with power and glory. If God found it necessary to prophesy the humble first advent of Christ, I believe He would certainly make known **the end **to us when His Son returns to destroy the religion of the antichrist and the governments who do not accept him.

God does include the end just before Christ returns. The battle of Gog and Magog has clearly not happened yet. Neither has the great white thrown and the new heaven and new earth.

Did you ever notice that Jesus presents a great deal of knowledge and detail (eight signs and five amplifications) pointing to the destruction of the Temple? Basically, He tells them exactly what to look for and what to do. Did you ever notice that He suddenly speaks of His second coming which no one, not even the Son, has any knowledge of? (Matt 24:36, 39, 42, 44)

The same thing happen in the book of Revelation, and the 1,000 reign (Christ in the Church) is what separates the two.

I could go on and on posting scripture and the reasons why most of Revelation (an unveiling) is not tet fulfilled.

I could go on explaining the reasons why most of Revelation has been fulfilled, but that would be unfair. I don’t mind quoting other people work, but it would be much easier to read “Rapture” by David B. Currie.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Special_Ed]

Jaypeeto4,

Thanks for your reply,

I agree that many scriptures of prophecy have a dual fulfillment or can apply to two different time periods. It may surprise us in the end to find more “dualism” in prophecy than we think.

Daniel 2, and esp. the fourth kingdom, is the passage of scripture that Protestant’s say declares the origin of the beast(s). The toes “mingled” (arab) with iron and clay, not only represent the fourth kingdom of that time, but also represents the future kingdom to come that would produce the antichrist. And it’s believed that the toes are representative of ten nations (ten horns) “from which the beast would emerge”.

My interpretation does not come from bias nor do I support any side other than my own. I’m not saying this because I’m trying to stand up for my Catholic church either. This is what I’ve discovered while trying to see if I could make any sense out of it all.

That’s why the proper understanding of the “inferior kingdom” is so important. If you say Medo-Persia is the second (inferior) kingdom, then that changes the outcome of the fourth kingdom, and therefore, changes the origin, **or from where these beast would come from. **(according to a futurist)

In other words. If you say the inferior kingdom is Persia, which in my view is contradictory because Persia was not “inferior” to Babylon, making Rome the fourth kingdom, that means the final beast would come from the geographical area of the old Roman Empire (the revived Roman Empire) which did not encompass the geographical area of the “Arab” world. It did emcompass Rome of course and much of Europe. This is why the Protestant’s believe and accept that the final beast would come from Rome and the EU. In escence, the interpretation of this verse actually determines whether the beast would be a Catholic and a European, or a Muslim and an Arab. That’s what this actually boils down to. And this is gaining a lot of attention these days.

BUT! The second “inferior” kingdom is not Persia. It was huge in size compared to the Babylonian Empire. The empire that was clearly inferior is the Median kingdom. And the bible declares that Darius the Mede took Babylon at 32 years old. The 2 horns that rose on the ram in Daniel 8 actually describe this inferior kingdom with the smaller horn that rose first. So my view is that anyone who say’s the fourth kingdom is Rome makes the bible contradict itself about the inferior kingdom and therefore is incorect. Also, John the Revelator said the beast “is not”… That alone means Rome is not implied because Rome “was” in power at the Time.

Jeremiah 50-51 and Isaiah say’s that God would stir up the Medes against them. (Babylon)
God did not say he would stir up the Persians against them.

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Daniel 5:31
“And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old.”

The bible did not say Cyrus took the kingdom, it declares that “Darius” did. You should realize that these verses help us correctly determine the fourth kingdom. And these verse exclude Rome as a candidate of the fourth kingdom.

For any interpretation of scripture to be correct, it cannot contradict words in those veses or other verses pertaining to the same topic, or history. There are many contradictions to the interpretation of Daniel 2 and the proper identity of the fourth kingdom is a bigger deal than you think. Millions of Protestants are misled to believe the beast would originate from Rome because they believe it to be the fourth kingdom.
Because I believe the fourth kingdom is Greece, which encompassed much of the Arab world and not Rome or Europe, means the origin of the beast cannot be Rome or the EU but from the Arab/Muslim world…Israel’s long time bitter enemy.

 

[Special_Ed]

That brings me back to "the toes mingled with iron and clay’.
Mingled, meaning arab, This is what “Walid” has to say,

Before we look at the origin of the Arab people I hear a question. You ask, “why start with the Arabs?” Answer: Islam claims that its roots start with Abraham and his oldest son, Ishmael, then those roots come down through Moses and the Old Testament, through the “prophet” Jesus, to arrive in the last prophet Muhammed and Mecca in 625 AD. Also, the Koran is an Arabic book in its pure form, and wherever Islam goes the Arab mystique goes and conquers culturally. One third of the world’s Arabs, 247 tribes, live in North Africa alone and speak Arabic and French.

In today’s world, does the iron and clay, which is described in Daniel 2 as partly strong, brittle, and divided… better describe the final beast as Rome, Catholicism, and an antichrist from the EU? Or are they better representd by Muslim and Arab nations who’s religion and alliances have alway’s been brittle and divided?

Isaiah say’s.
*Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.

For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:*

I believe my interpretation is precept upon precept. One scripture proves another. They don’t contradict one another. In order for any doctrine or theory to be correct, it cannot contradict any of the verses used to support that theory. Nor can it contradict history. And translating “symbolism” is the same.

You believe the ten horned beast represents a global, worldwide kingdom. This is another example of how words are often mistranslated. In Hebrew and Greek,** there are over 50 words for “all”. **They do not always imply the entirety of the whole. In the same way, the words earth, world, etc. are often mistranslated and seldom mean the “entire world.”
But that is an entirely different study.

For now, all I can say is that the final beast of seven heads and ten horns is symbolic of the coming ten nation Islamic empire of the beast. A coalition of Arab/Muslim nations mentioned in Ez. 38-39 or Ps. 83 which will someday unite in a variety of ways. One way is the two sects of Islam will unite under the Mahdi (antichrist) when he returns and as the muslim jesus (false prophet)* follows* in his footsteps. These things may be better to discuss on new threads.
SE

 

[Special_Ed]

ryanoniel,

Just remember that whatever you believe as far as history goes on the matter, it must corespond to the meaning of the word’s in their original languages and the symbolism that applies to it.

I have found a host of discrepency’s on this entire issue with dates and names etc. I often wonder if it’s both a lack of information and the alterations of dates etc. by interpreters trying to support their theories. There are so many discrepency’s that this is yet another issue atheist have used to debunk the bible. Even Cyrus is often confused with Darius.

I can try to explain what I think is correct.
Iran means “land of the Aryans”.

The Mede’s and Persian’s migrated together to the area we now know as Iran and Afganistan and maybe a small portion of Pakistan. They were confederate before the fall of Babylon and not fully united until about 50 years after the fall of Babylon into what is called the (Medo)Persian Empire. The Persian’s first settled mostly in the southern portions of todays Iran and the Mede’s settled more toward the north and west toward todays northern Iran and Afganistan. They were more strategically placed to wage war with Babylon.

There are issues as to who is who of those time periods because like the kings of Antiochus, there was Darius and Cyrus the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or whatever. Anyway, the Mede’s and Persian’s were intermarried.

The following statement which I believe is correct by wstruse.

Cyaxares II is the “Darius the Mede” mentioned in Daniel and Josephus ( Daniel 11:1; 5:30; 9:1 and Antiquities of the Jews 10:248-249)
Cyrus III (the Great) is the Cyrus of Biblical fame during whose reign the Jews returned to Jerusalem under Joshua and Zeruabbabel.
At the time of the fall of Babylon the Persians were in supremacy of the Perso-Median alliance. Cyrus the Great was actually related to “Darius the Mede” through his wife (Mandane) who was the sister of “Darius the Mede”. (Their father was Astyges)

It is likely that Cyrus placed “Darius the Mede” on the throne of Babylon as a gesture. It was probably a wise political move at the time because Cyaxares’ II fathers sister was the wife of Nebucadnezzar. Subsequently Cyrus later assumed the title King of Babylon. Cyaxares II (Darius the Mede) in reality was a vassal of King Cyrus.

This Generational comparison is based on the Behistun inscription, the Scriptures, the writings of Xenophon, (Rawlinson’s) Herodotus, Josephus, Aeschylus, the Apocrypha and a few others.

My response to the above,

The Persian’s were in supremacy of their alliance at the time because the were the most in numbers. Darius the Mede was the elder to Cyrus and related by marriage. At that time it was customary for the elder to go into battle. Darius was most certainly the elder and had help from Cyrus but mostly in the form of logistics.

I’m not sure that I can believe that Cyrus “placed” Darius on the throne. One thing for sure is that Darius took Babylon because that’s what the bible say’s and the bible is actually the historical authority on Darius because there is so little said about him elsewhere. I do believe that before the two completely merged into what became the Ram of Daniel 8, just as the smaller horn came up first, the Median kingdom came up first for it was the inferior kingdom that took Babylon.

This is the way I see it anyway and am still uncertain about some things. But I do know that what I believe does not contradict what the bible say about it.

 

[Special_Ed]

ryanoniel,

You said,

I’ve never claimed the word mixed means arab. The burden of proof is yours.

Sorry, I just assumed that you knew how I arrived at these things. I believe it is almost fruitless to determine the true meaning of almost any scripture (esp. prophecy) without using the definition of the words in their original languages. That’s why I continually stress that point and Daniel 2 is a clasic example of that.
Remember also the word used for inferior is “ara” which is actually “land”.

Mixed Daniel 2:39…From Strong’s concordance, Lexicon results for H6151arab (Aramaic)

**ar·ab’ **(Key)

1. to mix, join together
   a) (Pael) mixed (participle)
   b) (Ithpael) mixed (participle)
   6151 **arab ar-ab' **(Aramaic) corresponding to 6148; to commingle:--mingle (self), mix. 6148 **arab **aw-rab’ a primitive root; to braid, i.e. **intermix; **technically, to traffic (as if by barter);

I hope to have time to respond to some of your other comments.

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

ryanoniel,

All of this Scripture proves that Christ’s Kingdom is already set up.

Matt. 16:19, And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

No it doesn’t.

Matt. 13:24-52,

Well here is verse 39-43 of Mt 13 and maybe you should take another look.

39 *The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Now think about what that just said???

40 *As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 *The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 *And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 *Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun (millennial kingdom) in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt. 25:1-2, *¶Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 *And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

These verses prove something but they do not prove God’s kingdom has already been established on earth.

Matt 12:28; But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
You must understand the context of this verse. It doesn’t prove what you claim…

Mark 1:15; And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Again the context of the verse is a bit different here and it doesn’t prove the kingdom of God is already established. It implies that the Kingdom of God can only be obtained from within.

Maybe you should pay attention to what these verse say keeping in mind the symbolism of the divided kingdom of Daniel 2 or the ten toes “mingled” with iron and clay.

Luke 11:18-20; But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

18 *If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through
Beelzebub.
This is why Islam won’t stand. It is divided against itself.

19 *And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

20 *But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Again the context of the verse is critical. Jesus is the one who makes avaliable the keys to the kingdom. Casting out devils was proof. The Lamb of God, the ultimate sacrifice for those who believe, has appeard and this is what He meant when he said the kingdom of God is come to you. This verse does not suggest that his kingdom is already established.

 

[Special_Ed]

21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

17:21** Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.**

I especially like Luke 9:27 Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." Is Jesus lying here?

What about 1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

What has Christ been reigning over all this time?

Look at it again.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This only happens at his second advent. It has not yet happened.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

This has not yet happened. It will not be completely be conquered until after the millenial reign of Christ after Satan is released one more time and then he and death are cast into the bottomless pit/lake of fire.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

These things have not occured. Soon though!

Probably the best scripture to support your case would have been Mt. 4:17.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The verse is more correctly translated kingdom of the heavens. It is established when Jesus returns to put an end to the “rebellion” where at the end Christ will come to set up a literal earthly kingdom. This kingdom is not so far away. This kingdom is not so far away…

There is no reason for God to leave out the events just prior to His return. The foolish acts of mankind will cause the wrath of God to rise. He will let mankind nearly destroy itself before He sets up His Kingdom. He will bring low the arrogance of man. Well, that’s what the bible say’s anyway.

It was and will always be a wonderful and spectacular thing the way the King of all Kings first appeared. The events just prior to His second coming will far out do those of His first advent. They are recorded in the visions of our dearly beloved prophet’s of the Holy Bible. When He returns, He takes vengence on those who have spilled the blood of the saints, and those who destroy the earth.

It’s impossible for a historicist to confront any verse of prophecy. There is no way to explain any of it as history. The amazing descriptions depict a time called the time of the end.

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

The seven heads of (17:9) symbolize the seven hills of Jerusalem, but also the seven kings who ruled the beast. The "five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, (17:10) are the Julio-Claudio lineage of Roman emperors. Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius I are the five who have fallen. Nero is the sixth who “is” and Vespasian is the seventh “the other [king who] has not yet come.”

So when St John wrote Revelation, Nero (emperor 6) was Caesar. John predicted Vespasians reign before it was established. Vespasian came to attack Jerusalem, but “when he comes he must remain only a little while.” He led three campaigns against the Jews. The first in 67 A.D., the second in 68 A.D. and then Nero died. Vespasian left and went to Alexandria to intercept the grain shipments headed to Rome. He returned for a third short camaign in midsummer 69 A.D. St. John predicted Vespasian leaving Judea the second time after “a little while,” when he returned to Rome to claim the throne.

As I mentioned Titus was with his father Vespasian in 67 and 68. His blood relation explains How Titus "belongs to the seven[th]. And I already spoke about how Titus “was and is not” It all fits like a glove.

If the beast that was, and is not, is Rome, that cotradicts Daniel 2 for the many reasons I’ve stated. The events you describe actually do not matter because Rome was still in Power at the time. The beast is a kingdom and also a man and one of the heads is wouded unto death and is also called “the little horn”.

3 *And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Remenber the “iron” of Daniel 2?

Daniel 7,
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had** ten horns.**

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

I can explain what I think these verses mean. But that would be in another thread.
The Roman Empire is definitely not this little horn. Because that would conflict with Daniel 2, Daniel 8, And other verses I’ve posted.

SE

 

[ryanoneil]

Please answer one question for me Ed.

Where does Daniel mention the first coming of Christ?

Thank You,

Ryan