The Orthodox and the Hail Mary

[ciero]

"The priest gives us a penance after confession, that we may satisfy God for the temporal punishment due to our sins."

Ive been attending Byzantine Catholic churches for years and have never been given a penance at confession or heard the word purgatory. Does this mean we’ve got it all wrong?

 

[Vico]

"The priest gives us a penance after confession, that we may satisfy God for the temporal punishment due to our sins."

Ive been attending Byzantine Catholic churches for years and have never been given a penance at confession or heard the word purgatory. Does this mean we’ve got it all wrong?

Sorry, it is different in the Eastern Churches than in the Latin Church. We are always striving through fasting and prayer and service and self denial, especially in the penetential seasons. I have been asked to read some of Matthew 5 after confession at my Byzantine Catholic parish. Even at Latin confession I have not been given specific prayers to do only advice for the future, with less serious sins.

I will be glad when the UGCC Catechism is out.

Κύριε Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ, Υἱέ τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἐλέησόν με τὸν ἁμαρτωλόν (m) / τὴν ἁμαρτωλόν (f)
Kyrie Isou Christe, Ie tou Theou eleison, me ton amartolo (m) / tes amartolo (f)
Господи Ісусе Христе Сыне Божїй помилѹй мѧ грѣшнаго (m) / грѣшнѹю (f)
Hospodi Isuse Christe Syne Bozhij pomiluj mja hrishnaho (m) / hrishnuju (f)

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner

 

[Aramis]

"The priest gives us a penance after confession, that we may satisfy God for the temporal punishment due to our sins."

Ive been attending Byzantine Catholic churches for years and have never been given a penance at confession or heard the word purgatory. Does this mean we’ve got it all wrong?

I’ve been given pennances by Orthodox and by Byzantine Catholic Priests… always ones designed to help learn to avoid the sins confessed more than punishments to be endured.

Dominicans give similar penances.

 

[Diak]

I will be glad when the UGCC Catechism is out.

The Directory already is out (since 2000); and luckily not one mention of “indulgences” are/will be in either.

Ive been attending Byzantine Catholic churches for years and have never been given a penance at confession or heard the word purgatory. Does this mean we’ve got it all wrong?

Absolutely not.

 

[Diak]

Originally Posted by Vico
The Council of Trent (Sess, XXV, 3-4, Dec., 1563)
Continuation Of The Session On The Fourth Day Of December Decree Concerning Indulgences

You can find it here:

americancatholictruthsoci…/trent25.htm#6

Thank you and here is the relevant point for this discussion (I believe);

; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them.

The decree in no way says that we must use them or even acknowledge them other than assenting that the Church has the power to grant them and that they are useful.

Sirs, the same council also decreed in Quo Primum that we should be only be celebrating a particular version of the Roman Mass as codified in 1570. ("Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches , and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us").

And I specifically consider these documents equally irrelevant for my particular Church precisely because of enlightened, informed, and inspired clarifications by the decrees of subsequent Councils (especially the most recent). The content of neither precription is of the organic spiritual or liturgical tradition of my particular Church.

 

[Vico]

The Directory already is out (since 2000); and luckily not one mention of “indulgences” are/will be in either.
…

As it should be, and I expect nothing on purgatory to be present either, in the Eastern Traditions, similar to indulgences.

Members of the Eastern Churches would have to get information elsewhere, on the universal aspects of the Church and those pertaining to the Eastern Churches, particularly these portions of the Roman Curia:

The Secretariat of State
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
The Congregation for the Causes of Saints
The Apostolic Penitentiary
The Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura
The Tribunal of the Rota Romana

Of note here is the Apostolic Penitentiary which does three things universally for the Catholic Church (when reserved to the Holy See): absolves latae sententiae, issues dispensations of sacramental impediments, and issues and governs indulgences (and such statements may include references to purgatory).

 

[malphono]

I don’t know why we are debating Trent’s Latin theological constructs on the Eastern forum …

I was wondering the same thing, but I just had this belated :idea: brainstorm: could it be that some folks continue to hold to the stale (and officially discredited) theory of the superiority of the Roman Church? Or is it that they admit the East may have a valid theological tradition/traditions of its/their own, but this must be expressed using the terminology and concepts of the “Universal” (here read: Latin) Church? (Not much difference between those two things, actually.)

I keep seeing references to the “Universal Church” and the “Roman curia” etc but (and maybe I missed it) I haven’t seen much other than Latin theological constructs and Latin terminology, etc. Perhaps the modus operandi is that constant repetition of the theme will browbeat the ignorant little children of the East and Orient into submission. That might work on some. It does not work on me.

 

[Ghosty]

As it should be, and I expect nothing on purgatory to be present either, in the Eastern Traditions, similar to indulgences.

Members of the Eastern Churches would have to get information elsewhere, on the universal aspects of the Church and those pertaining to the Eastern Churches, particularly these portions of the Roman Curia:

The Secretariat of State
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
The Congregation for the Causes of Saints
The Apostolic Penitentiary
The Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura
The Tribunal of the Rota Romana

Of note here is the Apostolic Penitentiary which does three things universally for the Catholic Church (when reserved to the Holy See): absolves latae sententiae, issues dispensations of sacramental impediments, and issues and governs indulgences (and such statements may include references to purgatory).

One thing to understand is that the Curia are not generally well regarded in the East, at least not in my experience. The Papacy is one thing, but mere Latin functionaries having authority over Eastern Patriarchs goes way too far. The Curia system will eventually have to be completely reformed or dropped before any serious talks of reunion with the Orthodox, and even without such talks, IMO. It’s outdated, and a model that doesn’t reflect the proper tradition of the Catholic Communion.

I know this is off-topic, but it’s somewhat relevant because you keep referring to these “universal” organs of the Church when they are anything but universal. They may have canonical jurisdiction for now, but they don’t carry as much legitimate weight among many Eastern Catholics as you may think. In many cases they are “politely ignored” at best.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Diak]

Members of the Eastern Churches would have to get information elsewhere, on the universal aspects of the Church and those pertaining to the Eastern Churches, particularly these portions of the Roman Curia:

This is patently absurd. Why should any member of the Eastern Church need to get “information” on “universal aspects of the Church and those pertaining to the Eastern Churches, particularly these portions of the Roman Curia” when these are simply internal dicasteries of the Latin Church? No such thing is included in the Union of mine or any other particular Eastern Catholic Church.

According to the Magisterium in Orientalium Ecclesiarum and reiterated in Orientale Lumen:

For this reason it solemnly declares that the Churches of the East, as much as those of the West, have a full right and are in duty bound to rule themselves, each in accordance with its own established disciplines, since all these are praiseworthy by reason of their venerable antiquity, more harmonious with the character of their faithful and more suited to the promotion of the good of souls.

“Govern themselves”. No Catholic should search any further than his or her own particular Church for the fullness of faith and “information”.

 

[Vico]

I was wondering the same thing, but I just had this belated :idea: brainstorm: could it be that some folks continue to hold to the stale (and officially discredited) theory of the superiority of the Roman Church? Or is it that they admit the East may have a valid theological tradition/traditions of its/their own, but this must be expressed using the terminology and concepts of the “Universal” (here read: Latin) Church? (Not much difference between those two things, actually.)

I keep seeing references to the “Universal Church” and the “Roman curia” etc but (and maybe I missed it) I haven’t seen much other than Latin theological constructs and Latin terminology, etc. Perhaps the modus operandi is that constant repetition of the theme will browbeat the ignorant little children of the East and Orient into submission. That might work on some. It does not work on me.

browbeat: to intimidate or disconcert by a stern manner or arrogant speech : bully, the synonym is intimidate

Please, have I been stern or arrogant in my comments? I have no intention, but if offended, I am sorry.

It is on the Eastern Catholic forum because it pertains to Eastern Catholics. The topic arose due to my mentioning that the Rosary for the Latin Church was similar to the Akathist for the Eastern Churches because they were both indulgenced.

Certainly it is a Latin terminology, yet it is also a dogma, so I think it should be renamed. But to what? it must be common to all 23 particular Churches. But not the topic for this thread.

Indulgences got started at the Council of Claremont (1095 A.D.) and that was after the schism of 1054, so perhaps indulgences (and purgatory dogma of First Council of Lyon, 1254 A.D.) have become the “fruit of the poison tree” to some Eastern Catholics. (As dogmas they are minimal and have no required expression that goes against any particular Church tradition, nor do indulgences have to be utilized.)

 

[Ghosty]

This is patently absurd. Why should any member of the Eastern Church need to get “information” on “universal aspects of the Church and those pertaining to the Eastern Churches, particularly these portions of the Roman Curia” when these are simply internal dicasteries of the Latin Church? No such thing is included in the Union of mine or any other particular Eastern Catholic Church.

According to the Magisterium in Orientalium Ecclesiarum and reiterated in Orientale Lumen:

“Govern themselves”. No Catholic should search any further than his or her own particular Church for the fullness of faith and “information”.

Case in point!

Peace and God bless!

 

[ciero]

browbeat: to intimidate or disconcert by a stern manner or arrogant speech : bully, the synonym is intimidate

Please, have I been stern or arrogant in my comments? I have no intention, but if offended, I am sorry.

It is on the Eastern Catholic forum because it pertains to Eastern Catholics. The topic arose due to my mentioning that the Rosary for the Latin Church was similar to the Akathist for the Eastern Churches because they were both indulgenced.

Certainly it is a Latin terminology, yet it is also a dogma, so I think it should be renamed. But to what? it must be common to all 23 particular Churches. But not the topic for this thread.

Indulgences got started at the Council of Claremont (1095 A.D.) and that was after the schism of 1054, so perhaps indulgences (and purgatory dogma of First Council of Lyon, 1254 A.D.) have become the “fruit of the poison tree” to some Eastern Catholics. (As dogmas they are minimal and have no required expression that goes against any particular Church tradition, nor do indulgences have to be utilized.)

It is people like you Vico who give the Latin church a bad name in relations with our Orthodox brothers. Why cant you Latins keep your own traditions and leave us Easterners alone. Its because of people like you I often feel the need to just join the Orthodox and be done with it.

Thank God Rome dosent think like you!!

 

[Vico]

This is patently absurd. Why should any member of the Eastern Church need to get “information” on “universal aspects of the Church and those pertaining to the Eastern Churches, particularly these portions of the Roman Curia” when these are simply internal dicasteries of the Latin Church? No such thing is included in the Union of mine or any other particular Eastern Catholic Church.

According to the Magisterium in Orientalium Ecclesiarum and reiterated in Orientale Lumen: …

“Govern themselves”. No Catholic should search any further than his or her own particular Church for the fullness of faith and “information”.

If would be ideal if the particular Churches would include the fullness of faith so one would not have to do their own research. One can demand as a Catholic that the particular Churches present the Papal encyclicals and councils and the fullness of faith.

The Pope governs the Catholic Church through the Roman Curia. Are you saying that the Eastern Churches are not a part of the Catholic Church, or that the Pope does not govern? I want to understand your view. (Maybe this should be another thread, if it is going to get longwinded.)

Your remarks indicate that the Catholic Church org chart is:

Eastern Churches → Pope ← Latin Church [Roman Curia]

Yet the UGCC org chart that I have shows:

Eastern Churches → Pope [Roman Curia] ← Latin Church

 

[Vico]

It is people like you Vico who give the Latin church a bad name in relations with our Orthodox brothers. Why cant you Latins keep your own traditions and leave us Easterners alone. Its because of people like you I often feel the need to just join the Orthodox and be done with it.

Thank God Rome dosent think like you!!

I don’t understand your remark, ciero. How do I give the Latin church a bad name? Send me a personal message if you want to speak restricted.

I am keeping my traditions, I am in a Byzantine Catholic parish and I love the Divine Liturgy and Patristic doctrines. (I also wear a scapular which is a Latin tradition, with is my personal right to do so.) I can’t leave Easterners alone because I am one.

 

[ciero]

I don’t understand your remark, ciero. How do I give the Latin church a bad name? Send me a personal message if you want to speak restricted.

I am keeping my traditions, I am in a Byzantine Catholic parish and I love the Divine Liturgy and Patristic doctrines. (I also wear a scapular which is a Latin tradition, with is my personal right to do so.) I can’t leave Easterners alone because I am one.

You are HARDLY Eastern!! You are a Latin thru and thru , and whats even worse one who mixes traditions. Metropolitan Jonah here I come!!

 

[ciero]

I don’t understand your remark, ciero. How do I give the Latin church a bad name? Send me a personal message if you want to speak restricted.

I am keeping my traditions, I am in a Byzantine Catholic parish and I love the Divine Liturgy and Patristic doctrines. (I also wear a scapular which is a Latin tradition, with is my personal right to do so.) I can’t leave Easterners alone because I am one.

You are HARDLY Eastern!! You are a Latin thru and thru , and whats even worse one who mixes traditions. Pick a church and embrace its theology and traditions fully, mixing and matching results in Uniatism at its worst.
You give the Latin church a bad name by trying to force your Latin ways of thinking on us Easterners. Until you understand we see things VERY differently then the Latins, we aproach things differently you will never be Byzantine, no matter how much you love the liturgy and read the fathers.
I love the Traditional Latin Mass and plenty of the Roman Saints, that Hardly makes me a Latin! I just dont get it, refugees from the Latin church telling us Easterners how our own churches should think! Annoying to say the least.
Please excuse my rambling I am just so annoyed !

Metropolitan Jonah here I come!!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You are HARDLY Eastern!! You are a Latin thru and thru , and whats even worse one who mixes traditions. Pick a church and embrace its theology and traditions fully, mixing and matching results in Uniatism at its worst.
You give the Latin church a bad name by trying to force your Latin ways of thinking on us Easterners. Until you understand we see things VERY differently then the Latins, we aproach things differently you will never be Byzantine, no matter how much you love the liturgy and read the fathers.
I love the Traditional Latin Mass and plenty of the Roman Saints, that Hardly makes me a Latin! I just dont get it, refugees from the Latin church telling us Easterners how our own churches should think! Annoying to say the least.
Please excuse my rambling I am just so annoyed !

Metropolitan Jonah here I come!!

I would hate to hear what you think of me then being a member of the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church while also being a vowed brother in the Order of Carmelites (as well as what you think of my bi-ritual brothers).

 

[Volodymyr]

I don’t understand your remark, ciero. How do I give the Latin church a bad name? Send me a personal message if you want to speak restricted.

I am keeping my traditions, I am in a Byzantine Catholic parish and I love the Divine Liturgy and Patristic doctrines. I can’t leave Easterners alone because I am one.

Brother Vico - you are being given a hard time by both Orthodox and Catolics, but you seem earnest person. I think you do not give Latin Church bad name - you are firm believer in that Church. You believe in Papacy and how it works. But you must remember that for Orthodox is fear that Bishop of Rome has too much administrative power - but that it should not ever in past or in future extend to Orthodox church.

You are very good Catolic. But there is very little “Easterner” otherwise in your remarks - you are a person who likes Divine Liturgy. Good, it is very beautiful. But for you this is attraction of appearance - underneath you are complete Latin Roman Catolic. This is not bad, Vico. But this is truth. God bless you!

 

[Diak]

If would be ideal if the particular Churches would include the fullness of faith so one would not have to do their own research. One can demand as a Catholic that the particular Churches present the Papal encyclicals and councils and the fullness of faith.

The Pope governs the Catholic Church through the Roman Curia. Are you saying that the Eastern Churches are not a part of the Catholic Church, or that the Pope does not govern? I want to understand your view. (Maybe this should be another thread, if it is going to get longwinded.)

Your remarks indicate that the Catholic Church org chart is:

Eastern Churches → Pope ← Latin Church [Roman Curia]

Yet the UGCC org chart that I have shows:

Eastern Churches → Pope [Roman Curia] ← Latin Church

What I am saying I have said, which is nothing more than summarizing the proclamations of the Magesterium, my Synod, and the official statement of communion between my particular Catholic Church of the Kyivan tradition and the Roman Catholic Church.

From the statements of Pope Clement VII to the reiteration by the late Holy Father at the centenary of the Union of Brest, my Church does possess the “fullness of faith”. It certainly is not expressed the same way spiritually or liturgically as my Latin brethren, but it is absolutely respected by Magisterial teaching to be so (I would get long-winded were I to go from Leo XIII to the present in restating these definitive statements).

Not once in my life has any Ukrainian Greek Catholic faithful presented themselves to me or any priest I was working under and “demand as a Catholic that the particular Churches present the Papal encyclicals and councils and the fullness of faith.” Most have been quite satisfied from what our Synod, hierarchy and parish clergy have done in this regard.

I’ve actually done quite a bit of “present the Papal encyclicals” here, and it all points towards respect of our ability as a particular Church to govern ourselves as well as safeguard our own spiritual and liturgical tradition.

“Org charts” are not definitive by any means, subject to the interpretation of the writer, and are not useful as any kind of reliable doctrinal tool. As a UGCC cleric I have never seen the “org chart” you mention. I do have a directory that includes my bishop and clergy of my Eparchy, the Synodal hierarchy of the UGCC, and our hierarchy and clergy worldwide. It doesn’t include anything or anyone else, but then again it is only a directory.

 

[Vico]

You are HARDLY Eastern!! You are a Latin thru and thru , and whats even worse one who mixes traditions. Pick a church and embrace its theology and traditions fully, mixing and matching results in Uniatism at its worst.
You give the Latin church a bad name by trying to force your Latin ways of thinking on us Easterners. Until you understand we see things VERY differently then the Latins, we aproach things differently you will never be Byzantine, no matter how much you love the liturgy and read the fathers.
I love the Traditional Latin Mass and plenty of the Roman Saints, that Hardly makes me a Latin! I just dont get it, refugees from the Latin church telling us Easterners how our own churches should think! Annoying to say the least.
Please excuse my rambling I am just so annoyed !

Metropolitan Jonah here I come!!

But I do not embrace the Latin speculative theories, I do not embrace the legislative or punitive model of theology presented in the Latin tradition. This is why I changed churches. I have practiced eastern personal devotional practices for decades.

I do not tell you how to think, you have misrepresented me.