The Papal Tiara: Yes or No?

[malphono]

Burn ye at the stake!

No doubt there are those here who would rejoice at that.

Now … as for the mitres

overheardinthesacristy.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sedia.jpg

I’m not crazy about the mitre itself, but I love the sedia gestatoria.

3.bp.blogspot.com/_Uf0LwaR20H0/S2ik258BbZI/AAAAAAAAA0c/0NrkBG4fNNA/s320/Benedict_hexagram_miter.jpg

This one is probably the best of the bunch.

To my taste, the rest are … well … overly decorated, loud, gaudy … you get the picture.

 

[Pregustator]

No doubt there are those here who would rejoice at that.

I believe I can empathize with that concern.

Now … as for the mitres

I’m not crazy about the mitre itself, but I love the sedia gestatoria.

This one is probably the best of the bunch.

To my taste, the rest are … well … overly decorated, loud, gaudy … you get the picture.

Yes, the one you chose as the best does not surprise me, as it is amongst those I like the least! And I find the symbolism featured on that particular mitre of dubious propriety.

The medium-height “John Paul” style mitres tend to be to my liking, provided that the designs are tasteful.

Sedia gestatoria, indeed. No thank you. How about papal staffs? Anyone? I do not like either of the papal staffs that Pope Benedict uses, to be quite honest. I much prefer the one made famous by Pope John Paul II (even though the same design was used by Paul VI and John Paul I).

 

[malphono]

I believe I can empathize with that concern.

No doubt.

How about papal staffs? Anyone? I do not like either of the papal staffs that Pope Benedict uses, to be quite honest. I much prefer the one made famous by Pope John Paul II (even though the same design was used by Paul VI and John Paul I).

As you might already expect, I absolutely detested the thing used by the previous Pontiff. And I wasn’t in love with the similar design used by his two predecessors. The staff currently in use by PP Benedict XVI is the same one used by Pius IX. It may be a bit bulky, but at least it’s dignified. That bit of dignity is a nice touch for a change. Hearkens back to the days of Bl PP John XXIII.

 

[MarkThompson]

How about papal staffs? Anyone? I do not like either of the papal staffs that Pope Benedict uses, to be quite honest. I much prefer the one made famous by Pope John Paul II (even though the same design was used by Paul VI and John Paul I).

If you mean the ferula pictured below, I think it’s wonderful. I would be happy never to see the Paul VI “droopy cross” ferula again, except maybe in Lent. It’s so depressing.



I like the miter too.

 

[malphono]

If you mean the ferula pictured below, I think it’s wonderful.

Not addressed to me, but that’s the one I meant, at least.

I would be happy never to see the Paul VI “droopy cross” ferula again, except maybe in Lent. It’s so depressing.

No, not even in Lent. Depressing doesn’t begin to describe that thing and its siblings.

 

[Pregustator]

If you mean the ferula pictured below, I think it’s wonderful. I would be happy never to see the Paul VI “droopy cross” ferula again, except maybe in Lent. It’s so depressing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Benoît_XVI_synode_2008.jpg

I like the miter too.

Now that is rather a nice mitre. I’m not really fond of the staff he’s carrying, however, because to me it looks more like a processional cross than a pastoral staff; it’s much too large.

The staff currently in use by PP Benedict XVI is the same one used by Pius IX.

I’ve read that it was Pius IX’s, and I’ve read that it was Pius XI’s. I wonder which is accurate. Either way, the pope did not walk with a staff while in procession back then, because he didn’t walk at all; he was carried in the pre-popemobile sedia gestatoria, which we all love or hate as much as we do the tiara. I know that the ferula was held by pre-Vatican II popes during Holy Years as they opened the Holy Door, but when else might they have held it, I wonder? Anybody have any idea?

At any rate, the far-too-big cross that the current Pope carries around with him is the better of two that he uses, in my opinion. Behold the other:

2.bp.blogspot.com/_V8bQoUW85lQ/S7LCinYHNmI/AAAAAAAACbk/4GpALSA3qQ0/s1600/09_11_28_B16_new_ferula.jpg

It is, at least, more size-appropriate than the other, but I dislike the shape of the Cross, itself. I have no idea of its provenance.

 

[Domnall]

After a lot of consideration I think I’d like to retract, in part, my statement about the tiara.

If we could have a more simple style tiara (that is clearly distinct from the bishop’s mitre) I think I’d be more happy with it. When I was thinking of mitres, I was thinking of those big ol’ hunking metal ones the pope’s used to wear. Now, one of the paper-mechee[sic] ones, maybe with a couple adornments would look nice.

 

[At_Trent]

That is the camauro.

That’s the camauro. It was a very commonly worn papal hat from the middle ages until Pope Pius XII came along. He seldom, if ever, wore it. Pope John XXIII loved it, however, and it made regular appearances during his reign. Then it fell out of favor, again and wasn’t worn again until Pope Benedict XVI decided to wear one at Christmas a few years ago, but he doesn’t seem to have worn it again, since.

Ok, thanks. I knew, but couldn’t think of it to save me. It’s like the sink like fixture in the sacristy. I know what it is, but can never recall the exact name. I’ve looked it up many times, but it never sinks in (no pun)

 

[Pregustator]

Ok, thanks. I knew, but couldn’t think of it to save me. It’s like the sink like fixture in the sacristy. I know what it is, but can never recall the exact name. I’ve looked it up many times, but it never sinks in (no pun)

Ba-dump-bump. He’ll be here all week, ladies and gentlemen.

I believe you may be referring to the sacrarium. The sacrarium is used by sacristans to dispose of water in which sacred linens have been washed; or water in which hosts that have fallen to the floor have been completely dissolved.

It is not meant for the disposal of Precious Blood that has not been consumed, all you EMHCs and badly-trained sacristans out there! Consume it!

 

[malphono]

I’ve read that it was Pius IX’s, and I’ve read that it was Pius XI’s. I wonder which is accurate.

Pius IX .

And, BTW, I would consider the mitre in the same photo as acceptable. Not the best, but not bad.

 

[Pregustator]

Pius IX .

And, BTW, I would consider the mitre in the same photo as acceptable. Not the best, but not bad.

Yes, Pope Benedict’s staff of choice (after he dispensed with the silver one, and before he switched to that other one) was originally gifted to Pius IX; the Vatican’s website concurs with you…

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/img/BXVIviterbo-ferula.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/ns_lit_doc_20091117_ferula_en.html&usg=__zP2IU2H7hYc51TyE5s8PO711OxQ=&h=450&w=236&sz=23&hl=en&start=20&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=6LNZXHteB8rMeM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=67&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpope%2Bbenedict%2Bferula%26start%3D18%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D18%26tbs%3Disch:1

…I did some investigating on my lunch hour.

But the latest of the three staffs that Benedict XVI has used–according to the papal MC, Guido Marini–may now be considered the genuine pastoral staff of Pope Benedict XVI. From the website “Pope John Paul II Online”:

On 16 March 2008, at the Palm Sunday celebrations in Saint Peter’s Square, Pope Benedict XVI used the Papal Cross that had been previously used by Popes Pius IX and Pius XII. This cross was used until 28 November 2009. The replacement cross was a gift of the Circolo San Pietro (an organization founded in the 19th century to support the papacy) and, according to Msgr. Guido Marini, the Papal Master of Ceremonies, it “can be considered to all intents and purposes the pastoral staff of Benedict XVI.”

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_V8bQoUW85lQ/S7LCinYHNmI/AAAAAAAACbk/4GpALSA3qQ0/s1600/09_11_28_B16_new_ferula.jpg&imgrefurl=http://giovannipaolomagno.blogspot.com/2010_03_01_archive.html&usg=__gLL_H0TV38FgSmeE9WZI4USKAH8=&h=323&w=399&sz=35&hl=en&start=6&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=vGBrXngw8WZfaM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpope%2Bbenedict%2Bferula%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1

Perhaps he’ll leave his last staff at the shrine of Celestine V, where he left his first pallium. I don’t know why they feel the need to abandon one thing entirely in order to use another. Why could he not wear both pallia, I wonder; the one he was invested with when he wears fuller-cut vestments, and the smaller one when he wears Roman cut vestments?

When the Holy Father permanently abandoned his original pallium in favor of the new one, I said to myself, “ah-ha! he’s bringing back the fanon.” So much for my prognostications. Haven’t seen hide nor hair of it.

If they ever bring back the Falda, I’m converting to Methodism.

 

[Catholic87]

i wonder why his Holiness hasn’t brought back the fanon, even Pope John Paul II used the fanon once…hmm?

 

[malphono]

After a lot of consideration I think I’d like to retract, in part, my statement about the tiara.

If we could have a more simple style tiara (that is clearly distinct from the bishop’s mitre) I think I’d be more happy with it.

More simple than Paul VI’s?

When I was thinking of mitres, I was thinking of those big ol’ hunking metal ones the pope’s used to wear. Now, one of the paper-mechee[sic] ones, maybe with a couple adornments would look nice.

Actually, they’re not made of papier mâché, but rather, I believe, stiffened linen. Except, of course, for the adornments.

 

[Domnall]

More simple than Paul VI’s?
)

I’m thinking more along the lines of a conventional mitre in style, but you know, as a tiara. Does that make any sense?

 

[malphono]

I’m thinking more along the lines of a conventional mitre in style, but you know, as a tiara. Does that make any sense?

Not to be contrary, but no, it really doesn’t. Both are crown, but with totally different purposes and uses. The tiara (aka triregnum) is proper to the Pope alone, and was never worn liturgically. And even when it was used, it was only on certain rare occasions. The mitre, OTOH, was traditionally only used liturgically, and is, of course, common to all bishops. Coming up with a tiara-that-looks-like-a-mitre seems to me to be like cross-breeding an apple with an orange.

 

[Domnall]

Yes, I know the difference between a mitre and the tiara

What I mean is this…lets see if I can make a more coherent statement.

The simplicity of a bishop’s mitre, but in the shape of a tiara. So, they can be made from the same material, don’t need to be ultra fancy–but it’s still the tiara.

Better?

 

[malphono]

Yes, I know the difference between a mitre and the tiara

What I mean is this…lets see if I can make a more coherent statement.

The simplicity of a bishop’s mitre, but in the shape of a tiara. So, they can be made from the same material, don’t need to be ultra fancy–but it’s still the tiara.

Better?

Gotcha. That’s kind of what I thought you meant …

Seems to me that a tiara made of stiffened linen would be that cross-bred apple-orange thing again. Personally, I’d rather see the tiara remain in abeyance than denature it.

 

[LoyalViews]

If you mean the ferula pictured below, I think it’s wonderful. I would be happy never to see the Paul VI “droopy cross” ferula again, except maybe in Lent. It’s so depressing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Benoît_XVI_synode_2008.jpg

I like the miter too.

Don’t forget the red Papal shoes! I have always loved them!

 

[mcmitton]

Please let us see the tiara and sedia gestatoria once in a while.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

If you mean the ferula pictured below, I think it’s wonderful. I would be happy never to see the Paul VI “droopy cross” ferula again, except maybe in Lent. It’s so depressing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Benoît_XVI_synode_2008.jpg

I like the miter too.

I wouldn’t insist on the pastoral staff carried by the popes from Paul VI to Ven. John Paul II, but I rather think that the staff the Holy Father carries should be topped by a Crucifix, in line with “if I be lifted up, I shall draw all men unto Myself.” It would be more fitting, I think.